Why I believe the rapture will be before the tribulation.

[Shocker]

Thanks, brother.

Hey you're not tryin' to recruit me, are ya?

Nope, Jesus Christ did a fine job recruiting you already..

Just keep posting, I think you bring truth, and we need more like you.

We are already on the same team, lol..

 

[Choose Wisely]

Want additional proof? Compare Rev 6:12 with Matthew 24:29.

Revelation 6:12
New King James Version (NKJV)
Sixth Seal: Cosmic Disturbances

12 I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood.

See any stars here in Rev 6:12? This is a sign before the Rapture. (not necessarily immediately after the sign). The rapture happened at Rev 7:9.

Matthew 24:29
New King James Version (NKJV)
The Coming of the Son of Man

29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

See the stars in Matthew 24:29? This is an all out nuclear war and the smoke covering the sun and the moon (Armageddon), and the 2nd Coming of Jesus.

Now you can delete all those other post you linked after this one because they're irrelevant.

No, I don't see any stars in Rev 6:12. But when I read verse 13 I see the exact stars falling from heaven that you have in Matt 24:29.

Matt 24 is not the second coming, but is the second gathering or rapture.

 

[dfw69]

No, I don't see any stars in Rev 6:12. But when I read verse 13 I see the exact stars falling from heaven that you have in Matt 24:29.

Matt 24 is not the second coming, but is the second gathering or rapture.

Does matt 24 reveal any signs of the second coming? Or only the gathering?

If so then he never answered the disciples questions

 

[Choose Wisely]

Does matt 24 reveal any signs of the second coming? Or only the gathering?

If so then he never answered the disciples questions

Well that's a good point. But the coming in Matt 24 is not when Jesus comes with an army on white horses. The coming is when he will come on the clouds and send his angels to gather his elect. The ones that remain will be in the wrath of God.

 

[John S]

I am saved, and I am going to heaven.

My faith in Christ and his promise are immoveable.


Im not a pretribber, so I guess I see why you are confused.

Then you have placed yourself above God.

 

[Bible2]

Old Timer said in post 130:

Rev 12 says absolutely nothing about the church of God.. after the first three chapters mentioned it perhaps 100 times..

No significance should be read into the fact that the specific word "church" is mentioned many times in Revelation chapters 1-3 but not mentioned again until Revelation 22, just as no significance should be read into the fact that the specific word "church" is mentioned many times in Romans 16 but not mentioned in Romans chapters 1 to 15. The reason the word "church" is mentioned many times in Revelation chapters 1-3 is because those chapters refer to 7 literal, 1st century local church congregations in 7 cities in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11).

The church in the general sense will definitely be in the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. For believers will definitely be in it (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4, Matthew 24:9-13), and there are now no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6). Also, just as the mistaken pre-tribulation rapture view admits that Revelation chapters 19 to 22 include references to the church without using the specific word "church", so it should be able to admit that Revelation chapters 6 to 18 can include references to the church without using the specific word "church".

Old Timer said in post 130:

Rev 12 says absolutely nothing about the church of God.. after the first three chapters mentioned it perhaps 100 times..

The woman in Revelation 12 represents the church (which is Israel: Romans 11:1,17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10). She's clothed with the sun (Revelation 12:1) of righteousness (Malachi 4:2) through her faith in Jesus Christ (Romans 3:22), just as later we see the church clothed with righteousness (Revelation 19:8). The moon under her feet (Revelation 12:1) represents Satan under her feet (Romans 16:20) as she overcomes him spiritually by her faith in Jesus (Revelation 12:11). The crown of 12 stars on her head (Revelation 12:1) represents the 12 apostles (of Matthew 10:2-4, Acts 1:16-26), who have been placed over the church (1 Corinthians 12:28).

Her giving birth to the "man child", and his being caught up to the throne of God (Revelation 12:5) immediately before she flees into the wilderness for a literal 3.5 years (Revelation 12:6), represents the future, mid-tribulation catching up of the 144,000 male-virgins part of the church in their mortal bodies to the throne of God in heaven (Revelation 14:1,4,5, Textus Receptus), like how Enoch and Elijah were caught up in their mortal bodies to heaven (Hebrews 11:5; 2 Kings 2:11).

Her fleeing into and remaining in a protected wilderness place for a literal 3.5 years (Revelation 12:6,14) represents those in the church who will flee into and remain in divinely-protected wilderness places during the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18), which will be in the latter half of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24.

The remnant of her seed (Revelation 12:17) represents those in the church during that time who won't flee into wilderness places, but will remain in the cities, and will be persecuted in every nation, imprisoned, and beheaded by the Antichrist (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

Also, Genesis 37:9-10 isn't (as is sometimes claimed) being referred to in Revelation 12:1. For in Revelation 12:1, the church/Israel isn't clothed with the man Jacob (Genesis 37:9-10), but with the sun of righteousness (Malachi 4:2), through her faith in Jesus Christ (Romans 3:22), just as later we see the church/Israel clothed with righteousness (Revelation 19:8, cf. also Revelation 21:2,9,12). Also, the church/Israel doesn't have the woman Rachel under her feet (Genesis 37:9-10), but Satan (Romans 16:20), as the church/Israel overcomes him spiritually by her faith in Jesus (Revelation 12:11). And the church/Israel doesn't have Jacob's 12 sons placed over her (Genesis 37:9-10), but the 12 apostles (1 Corinthians 12:28, Matthew 10:2, Acts 1:26), each one of whom will rule over one of her 12 tribes (Matthew 19:28, Luke 22:30).

Old Timer said in post 130:

Did the Holy Spirit somehow forget how to tell us that this was the church?

The context is once again.. the things which shall be hereafter and Israel shall have the testimony of Christ in that Day..

Note that all genetic Jews in the church remain members of whichever tribe of Israel they were born into (Romans 11:1, Acts 4:36). And all genetic Gentiles in the church have been grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29) and so have been grafted into its various tribes (cf. Ezekiel 47:21-23). So the entire church is the 12 tribes of Israel (Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10). This is necessary, for all those in the church are saved only by the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34, John 4:22b). John 10:16 refers to the "other sheep" of believers who are Gentiles being brought into "this fold" of Israel, which is the "one fold" of the church (1 Corinthians 12:13, Ephesians 4:4-6, Revelation 21:9,12). A genetic Gentile believer can pray and ask which tribe of Israel he's been grafted into and he will receive an answer from God if he asks in faith (cf. Matthew 21:22) without any wavering (cf. James 1:6-7).

Also, all those in the church, no matter whether they're genetic Jews (Acts 22:3) or genetic Gentiles (Romans 16:4b), have become spiritually-circumcised Jews if they've undergone the spiritual circumcision of water-immersion (burial) baptism into Jesus (Romans 2:29, Philippians 3:3, Colossians 2:11-13).

Also, the book of James was addressing "the twelve tribes" (James 1:1), which was the same as addressing people in the church (James 5:14), people with faith in Christ (James 2:1, James 1:3) (i.e. Christians), people who have been born again (James 1:18, cf. 1 Peter 1:23), who are waiting for Christ to return (James 5:7).

*******

Old Timer said in post 132:

Regardless of any of this.. it's crstal clear that the marriage of the Lamb is come and that these are following Him when He does come..

In Revelation 19:14, the original Greek word (ouranos, G3772) translated as "heaven" can refer to the "sky" (Matthew 16:2-3, Luke 12:56), which will be the location of the literal clouds and air of 1 Thessalonians 4:17. Revelation 19:14 refers to the already immortally-resurrected (if dead) or changed (if alive) (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53) and married obedient part of the church (Revelation 19:7) descending with Jesus from the sky (the first heaven), where the church had been raptured to hold a meeting in the air with Jesus at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17).

Also, the 10-virgins parable (Matthew 25:1-13) shows that the marriage of the church to Jesus won't occur until his 2nd coming (Matthew 25:10), which Jesus had just finished saying won't occur until "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31), just like Revelation 19:7 shows that the marriage won't occur until after the (never fulfilled) tribulation, shown in Revelation chapters 6 to 18. The parable's extra oil (Matthew 25:4,9b) could represent the continued good works of believers, by which they will be able to pass the judgment of the church by Jesus (Matthew 25:19-30, Romans 2:6-8) and enter the marriage of the church to Jesus at his 2nd coming (Matthew 25:10, Revelation 19:7-21).

The marriage supper (Revelation 19:9) won't have yet begun by the time of Revelation 19, which won't begin until after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (cf. Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). For regarding the church, the marriage supper will be a literal feast in the earthly Jerusalem after the resurrection and marriage of the church at Jesus' 2nd coming (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-54). While the church will enjoy a feast "of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined" (Isaiah 25:6), the birds will feast on the corpses of the world's armies defeated at Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:17-21).

Also, regarding the 10-virgins parable, in Matthew 25:6 "midnight" could represent mid-tribulation, when the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) could be set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31). So when it says "at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh" (Matthew 25:6), this could mean that at the mid-tribulation point when the abomination of desolation is set up, the church will be given the knowledge of the date (as in the year, month, and day) of Jesus' 2nd coming. This date could be the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation is set up (Daniel 12:11-12, cf. Revelation 16:15).

 

[Bible2]

Old Timer said in post 134:

I'm sure you'll also continue to believe that Matthew 24 is about the church of God as well, regardless of the fact that it didn't exist at the time this was explained to the Apostles and regardless of the fact that its stated context is those who are in Judaea and that their flight may not be on the Sabbath day.

Matthew 24 refers to the future tribulation, by which time the church will have existed for some 2,000 years. The saints who will be in the tribulation will be the church, for they will be believers in Jesus Christ (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 7:9,14, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6), and now there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6). Those in the church who will be in the tribulation could include most of the believers alive today, for there will be no pre-tribulation rapture (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Matthew 24:29-31).

Also, Matthew 24 was addressed privately to only believers (Matthew 24:3,4,9), and in Jesus' mind all believers of all times are one (John 17:20-21, Ephesians 4:4-6). The entire book of Revelation was likewise addressed to only believers (Revelation 1:1-4, Revelation 22:16). Just as the (mistaken) pre-tribulation rapture view admits that, for example, John 14 and Matthew 24's parallel chapter of Luke 21 can apply to those in the church today (e.g. Luke 21:36, John 14:3), so the pre-tribulation rapture view should be able to admit that Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 18 can apply to those in the church today.

Matthew 24:9-13 refers to the future killing of Christians, those who will be hated and killed for the name of Jesus Christ (Matthew 24:9) in every nation of the earth during the future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). Matthew 24:9-13 shows that not all Christians will continue to love Jesus during that time, but some Christians' love for him will grow cold because of their unrepentant sin (Matthew 24:12; 1 Timothy 4:1-2; 2 Timothy 4:3-4) or because they will become offended (Matthew 24:10) that he's letting them suffer in the tribulation (Matthew 13:21, Isaiah 8:21-22; 1 Peter 4:12-13). Only those Christians who continue to love Jesus to the end will be ultimately saved (Matthew 24:13).

Old Timer said in post 134:

I'm sure you'll also continue to believe that Matthew 24 is about the church of God as well, regardless of the fact that it didn't exist at the time this was explained to the Apostles and regardless of the fact that its stated context is those who are in Judaea and that their flight may not be on the Sabbath day.

Regarding "Judaea" (Matthew 24:16), there are many churches in Judaea (southern Israel) today. And they contain mostly Gentile believers, not just Jewish believers. The church began and has always been in Judaea: "Then had the churches rest throughout all Judaea" (Acts 9:31); "the churches of Judaea" (Galatians 1:22); "the churches... in Judaea" (1 Thessalonians 2:14). Matthew 24:16 refers to those in the church, both Gentiles and Jews, who will be living in Judaea at the future point in time when the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31).

The Antichrist's persecution of the church could begin in Jerusalem and Judaea right after the abomination of desolation is set up and the Antichrist himself sits in the temple (at least one time) and proclaims himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). So to avoid this persecution (cf. Matthew 10:23a), those in the church living in Judaea should flee immediately after they see the abomination of desolation set up (Matthew 24:15-16), which event could occur at the midpoint of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, and which event could mark the start of the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:4-18). Eventually, the Antichrist's persecution of the church will reach every nation of the earth (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13), so that the basic principle of Matthew 24:16 of fleeing (the Antichrist's persecution) would apply to believers around the world.

Just as the woman in Revelation 12:6 represents many different people in the church around the world, so the protected wilderness place she flees to represents many different protected wilderness places around the world. When those in the church living in Judaea see the abomination of desolation set up, they should flee into places in the wilderness east of Judaea, the mountains (Matthew 24:16) of Jordan. And those in the church who will be living in places in the world other than Judaea should flee into other wilderness places, mountainous places (Ezekiel 7:16), in the regions of the world where they live.

And they should have prepared beforehand hideouts in these wilderness/mountain places, hideouts already fully stocked with all the emergency supplies of food, water, warm clothing, etc., that they and their families and fellow Christians will need to survive (1 Timothy 5:8, Matthew 24:45-46, cf. Genesis 41:48,36, Genesis 45:7) until Jesus returns, possibly on the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation is set up (Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15). For they shouldn't carry any supplies with them when they flee (Matthew 24:17-18). They should flee as unhindered and quickly as possible, knowing that when the abomination of desolation is set up, that could signal the beginning of the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year Luciferian (Satanic) worldwide reign of terror (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9), when he will be given power to make war against all those in the church that he can get his hands on, and to physically overcome them and kill them (by beheading) in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

Old Timer said in post 134:

I'm sure you'll also continue to believe that Matthew 24 is about the church of God as well, regardless of the fact that it didn't exist at the time this was explained to the Apostles and regardless of the fact that its stated context is those who are in Judaea and that their flight may not be on the Sabbath day.

Matthew 24:20 doesn't require that the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic-law sabbath will be in effect (as far as God is concerned) at the time Matthew 24:20 is fulfilled. And the parallel verse in Mark 13:18 doesn't mention the sabbath. For some Christians choose to keep the sabbath, while others choose not to keep it (Romans 14:5). The letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic-law sabbath hasn't been in effect since Jesus' crucifixion, when, for both Jews and Gentiles (John 11:51-52), of all times, the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law was abolished (Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18), disannulled (Hebrews 7:18), rendered obsolete (Hebrews 8:13, Galatians 3:2-25, Galatians 4:21 to 5:8), taken away and replaced (Hebrews 10:9) by the better hope (Hebrews 7:19), the better covenant (Hebrews 7:22, Hebrews 8:6-12), the 2nd covenant (Hebrews 8:7, Hebrews 10:9), of Jesus' New Covenant law (Galatians 6:2, John 1:17, Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 12:24, Hebrews 9:15), so that the law was changed (Hebrews 7:12).

All believers, both Jews and Gentles, of all times, are delivered from the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law and shouldn't keep it (Romans 7:6; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18, Galatians 2:11-21) or have any desire to keep it (Galatians 4:21 to 5:8, Galatians 3:2-25). Believers keep the spirit of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Romans 7:6) by loving others (Galatians 5:14, Romans 13:8-10), by doing to others as they would have others do to them (Matthew 7:12).

--

Matthew 24:19-20 means it will be more difficult for pregnant women and women carrying infants to flee (Matthew 24:16), just as will be more difficult to flee in the winter or on a sabbath. This would apply in cases where those fleeing don't have cars (or petrol), and so will have to walk a long way to their place of refuge. For walking a long way will be more difficult for pregnant women and women carrying infants, and for anyone at a time of wintry cold and wind, rain, or snow, and for any Christian on the sabbath who believes that to walk a long way on the sabbath is a sin. Also, by the time Matthew 24:15-20 is fulfilled in our future, the ultra-Orthodox Jews in Judaea (southern Israel) could have reestablished sabbath police there, who could attack with sticks anyone trying to walk a long way on the sabbath.

Also, the ultra-Orthodox Jews believe that it's a sin to even turn on a light switch on the sabbath, as they see it as breaking the commandment not to kindle a fire on the sabbath (Exodus 35:3). So they could similarly forbid people to start a car on the sabbath, as this would be kindling a fire within its combustion engine. Also, the ultra-Orthodox Jews could set up roadblocks to prevent anyone from driving a car anywhere on the sabbath.

 

[Bible2]

rollinTHUNDER said in post 151:

What gets me, is one thing that usually gets overlooked and/or ignored is that the days of tribulation being shortened for the sake of the elect., otherwise no flesh would be saved.

Mark 13:20 can mean that all flesh on the earth would die if the Lord hadn't already shortened, as in "he hath shortened" (Mark 13:20b), the number of days of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18, Mark 13, Matthew 24, and Luke 21. The Lord could have already determined, from the beginning of Creation (cf. Isaiah 46:10), that he will return on the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a 3rd Jewish temple (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15). And the Lord will return "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31), immediately after its final event, the worldwide destruction during the 7th vial (Revelation 16:19, Revelation 19:2 to 20:6). So Mark 13:20 can mean if the Lord hadn't shortened the number of days of the tribulation, then all flesh on the earth would die during the 7th vial's aftermath, which could be a nuclear-winter scenario (which the Lord will miraculously prevent at his return) brought on by the 10 kings of the Antichrist's empire nuking the cities of the earth at the 7th vial (Revelation 17:16-17a, Revelation 16:19).

 

[Bible2]

Shocker said in post 152:

Rev 3:10 'Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

3:10 is the only one that confuses me.. Clearly its talking about the rapture, but it makes it seem as if it takes place before the "hour of testing"..

What is the hour of testing? 7 years? 3.5? Gods wrath?

The 7 epistles to 7 churches in Revelation chapters 2-3 were sent to 7 literal, 1st century AD local church congregations in 7 cities in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11) (what's today western Turkey).

Revelation 3:10 meant that the literal, 1st century AD local church congregation in the city of Philadelphia (Revelation 3:7) in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11) would be kept safe from a persecution which came upon all the Roman world during the time of the Roman emperor Domitian. For the apostle John saw his Revelation vision (Revelation 1:1) near the end of Domitian's reign (Irenaeus, Against Heresies 5:30:3c), and Domitian persecuted the church toward the end of his reign. The righteous, literal, 1st century local church congregation in the city of Smyrna (Revelation 2:8) in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11) had to suffer and die in that persecution over a period of 10 literal days (Revelation 2:10).

The 1st century church in Philadelphia didn't have to be taken out of the world to be kept safe from (Greek: "ek") that persecution. For, as Jesus prayed for the church in general: "I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from (ek) the evil" (John 17:15,20). Also, the 1st century church in Philadelphia didn't have to be removed from time itself or from the earth in order to be kept from the "hour" (or the "time") of that persecution, just as, for example, a student in a classroom who's been excused from taking a test doesn't have to be removed from time itself or from the classroom in order to be excused from that time of testing. For he can be made to sit at his desk reading during that time, which won't be a time of testing for him.

Also, the 1st century persecution of Revelation 3:10 (and Revelation 2:10) was only "world"-wide in the sense of the Roman "world" (cf. Luke 2:1). So the subsequent reference to those on the "earth" in Revelation 3:10 should be understood as those Christians living on the earth during that time in the Roman empire, as opposed to those Christians who'd already died and gone to heaven (cf. 2 Corinthians 5:8, Philippians 1:21,23).

 

[TPeterY]

No, I don't see any stars in Rev 6:12. But when I read verse 13 I see the exact stars falling from heaven that you have in Matt 24:29.

Matt 24 is not the second coming, but is the second gathering or rapture.

No, it's not the same event. There's a period (.) at the end of Rev 6:12. Verse 13 is a different event of another time. Also look at Matthew 24:29, there's a semicolon ( ; ) linking the sun, moon and stars together as the same event.

Also Rev 6:13 is talking about the Fig Tree. You should know that whenever the bible speaks of the Fig Tree, it refers to Israel during the Age of Grace (before the tribulation). From 70AD to today, the bible is solely focused on the church while Israel is vaguely described as a Fig Tree. When the tribulation begins, Israel will be known by many names and the church is not mention till the end of the 70th week.

Revelation 6:13 (NKJV)
13 And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind.

If people are correct to think the coming 4 Blood Moons is actually Matthew 24:29 (2nd Coming), there wouldn't be so much confusion over who the antichrist is since Matthew 24:29 speaks of an even at the end of the tribulation.
_________________________________________

4 Blood Moons (no stars) - A sign before "The Great and Awesome Day of the Lord" (Rapture before the tribulation)

Acts 2:20 (NKJV)
20 The sun shall be turned into darkness,
And the moon into blood,
Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord.

Joel 2:31 (NKJV)
31 The sun shall be turned into darkness,
And the moon into blood,
Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord.

Revelation 6:12 (NKJV)
Sixth Seal: Cosmic Disturbances
12 I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood.


Sun, moon and stars - "The Great and Terrible Day of The Lord" (2nd Coming, Christ on a white horse)

Isaiah 13:9-10 (NKJV)
9 Behold, the day of the Lord comes,
Cruel, with both wrath and fierce anger,
To lay the land desolate;
And He will destroy its sinners from it.
10 For the stars of heaven and their constellations
Will not give their light;
The sun will be darkened in its going forth,
And the moon will not cause its light to shine.

Joel 2:10-11 (NKJV)
10 The earth quakes before them,
The heavens tremble;
The sun and moon grow dark,
And the stars diminish their brightness.
11 The Lord gives voice before His army,
For His camp is very great;
For strong is the One who executes His word.
For the day of the Lord is great and very terrible;
Who can endure it?

Matthew 24:29 {NKJV)
The Coming of the Son of Man
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

Mark 13:24-25 (NKJV)
The Coming of the Son of Man
24 “But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; 25 the stars of heaven will fall, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken.

Luke 21:25-28 (NKJV)
The Coming of the Son of Man
25 “And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; 26 men’s hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 27 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near.”

 

[TPeterY]

Yes, these two scriptures are describing the same thing. Lets compare:

Matthew 24:30-31
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

It's not the same. Here look.

Notice in Matthew he spoke of angel(s) and "A" trumpet?

In 1st Thess, Paul spoke of "the" Archangel with "THE" trump of God.

Paul spoke of the rapture, while Matthew spoke of the 2nd Coming.

Matthew 24:30-31
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of "A" trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with "THE" trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 

[Choose Wisely]

No, it's not the same event. There's a period (.) at the end of Rev 6:12. Verse 13 is a different event of another time. Also look at Matthew 24:29, there's a semicolon ( ; ) linking the sun, moon and stars together as the same event.

Also Rev 6:13 is talking about the Fig Tree. You should know that whenever the bible speaks of the Fig Tree, it refers to Israel during the Age of Grace (before the tribulation). From 70AD to today, the bible is solely focused on the church while Israel is vaguely described as a Fig Tree. When the tribulation begins, Israel will be known by many names and the church is not mention till the end of the 70th week.

Revelation 6:13 (NKJV)
13 And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind.

If people are correct to think the coming 4 Blood Moons is actually Matthew 24:29 (2nd Coming), there wouldn't be so much confusion over who the antichrist is since Matthew 24:29 speaks of an even at the end of the tribulation.
_________________________________________

Yes there is a period.....however, there is an AND. And is a conjunction. That means it is the same event.

The church is gone prior to the 70th week not after the tribulation. The wrath of God does not begin until either the end of the 6th seal or the opening of the 7th seal.

 

[TPeterY]

Yes there is a period.....however, there is an AND. And is a conjunction. That means it is the same event.

The church is gone prior to the 70th week not after the tribulation. The wrath of God does not begin until either the end of the 6th seal or the opening of the 7th seal.

Do you know how many verses in the bible begins with the word "And?" Probably thousands, something like 1/6 to 1/4 of all verses. When a verse begins with a small "a" like the word "and" than it's in conjunction.

Learn to interpret what the bible is saying in it's original meaning the way God explained it, not man's interpretation in modern english. Example below.

Matthew 24:1-14 (NKJV)
Jesus Predicts the Destruction of the Temple

1 Then Jesus went out and departed from the temple, and His disciples came up to show Him the buildings of the temple.
2 And Jesus said to them, “Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”

The Signs of the Times and the End of the Age

3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”
4 And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you.
5 For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many.
6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places.
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake.
10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another.
11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many.
12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold.
13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

 

[Shocker]

Then you have placed yourself above God.

No, I am saved and going to heaven because of my faith in Christ.

He promised me that, I am taking him up on his offer.



If you don't know if you are saved or not, you probably aren't.

By grace you are saved through faith.

 

[rollinTHUNDER]

Mark 13:20 can mean that all flesh on the earth would die if the Lord hadn't already shortened, as in "he hath shortened" (Mark 13:20b), the number of days of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18, Mark 13, Matthew 24, and Luke 21. The Lord could have already determined, from the beginning of Creation (cf. Isaiah 46:10), that he will return on the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a 3rd Jewish temple (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15). And the Lord will return "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31), immediately after its final event, the worldwide destruction during the 7th vial (Revelation 16:19, Revelation 19:2 to 20:6). So Mark 13:20 can mean if the Lord hadn't shortened the number of days of the tribulation, then all flesh on the earth would die during the 7th vial's aftermath, which could be a nuclear-winter scenario (which the Lord will miraculously prevent at his return) brought on by the 10 kings of the Antichrist's empire nuking the cities of the earth at the 7th vial (Revelation 17:16-17a, Revelation 16:19).

The days are shortened solely for the sake of the elect, not all of humanity. God has no problem with the goats (the rest of mankind-unbelievers) being destroyed, which He will ultimately do after He rescues and rewards His servants great and small.

Matt. 24:29-31 is not Christ' physical second coming to the earth. Follow the clues given after the gathering of His elect into the parables. He is clearly coming to reward His servants, beginning with those who are ready (faithful servants). Two will be in the field, one will be taken and the other is left. Two women will be grinding at the mill, one will be taken and the other left.

Your post-trib theory forces them to be the sheep and goats, which can not work. If the sheep taken then are the saints, and the goats are destroyed, who will be left for the sheep (saints) to rule over? Or if you see this differently, then please explain

Continue reading into Matt. 25 and you will see and understand who they are, His servants, both faithful and lazy, prepared and unprepared. Continue into the next parable of talents and you see the faithful servants being rewarded, but the lazy servant left in the outer darkness, where Satan is the prince of this dark world. They are the least of His brethren (martyrs), and the sheep will be allowed to enter the millennial kingdom based on how they ministered to them.

You claim the sheep and goat judgment occurs after the millennium, but in order for this to happen, the goats would have been dead and resurrected at the great white thrown. There is no mention anywhere of the goats being dead unbelievers. Your theory is full of holes. It does not and can not work, get over it.

 

[John S]

No, I am saved and going to heaven because of my faith in Christ.

He promised me that, I am taking him up on his offer.



If you don't know if you are saved or not, you probably aren't.

By grace you are saved through faith.

May God have mercy on your soul.

 

[Shocker]

May God have mercy on your soul.

Sorry, if you don't know if you are saved or going to heaven, you have a salvific issue.


A Christian knows when they are saved, and know they are going to heaven to be with Christ, its that simple.


If you don't know this, you aren't a Christian.. Its really that simple.

 

[dfw69]

Well that's a good point. But the coming in Matt 24 is not when Jesus comes with an army on white horses. The coming is when he will come on the clouds and send his angels to gather his elect. The ones that remain will be in the wrath of God.

I don't think that's correct... During the reaping of saints there is a resurrection first ... It does not mention that in Matt 24.. And if saints are transformed as Christ was... Then there is no need of angels to gather up for we will be able to ascend up by our own power as Christ was able ...no need for the angels help

What it does say in Matt is persecution surrounding the temple with the aod and scattering of Israel ... The gathering of elect is Israel that was scattered by a false messiah of that day before The Lord returns

 

[dfw69]

No, I am saved and going to heaven because of my faith in Christ.

He promised me that, I am taking him up on his offer.



If you don't know if you are saved or not, you probably aren't.

By grace you are saved through faith.

 

[shturt678s]

Sorry, if you don't know if you are saved or going to heaven, you have a salvific issue.


A Christian knows when they are saved, and know they are going to heaven to be with Christ, its that simple.


If you don't know this, you aren't a Christian.. Its really that simple.

Only a head's up, ie, God in heaven is the only one that knows whether or not a person enters heaven or not upon one's passing, ie, we only give our best shot to run the race, ie, not that we already finished the race, or resting on the sidelines?

The fear of God is the antithesis of any false security,

Old fearing God Jack

btw "faith" without 'repentance' is not good, ie, demon type of faith thus not that simple?