Why I believe the rapture will be before the tribulation.

[rollinTHUNDER]

2 Esd 13: 1611 KJV

15 Shew me now yet the interpretation of this dream.

16 For as I conceive in mine understanding, woe unto them that shall be left in those days and much more woe unto them that are not left behind!

17 For they that were not left were in heaviness.

18 Now understand I the things that are laid up in the latter days, which shall happen unto them(Those in heaviness), and to those that are left behind.

19 Therefore are they come into great perils and many necessities, like as these dreams declare.

20 Yet is it easier for him that is in danger to come into these things, than to pass away as a cloud out of the world, and not to see the things that happen in the last days. And he answered unto me, and said,

21 The interpretation of the vision shall I shew thee, and I will open unto thee the thing that thou hast required.

22 Whereas thou hast spoken of them that are left behind, this is the interpretation:

23 He that shall endure the peril in that time hath kept himself: they that be fallen into danger are such as have works, and faith toward the Almighty.

24 Know this therefore, that they which be left behind are more blessed than they that be dead.

25 This is the meaning of the vision: Whereas thou sawest a man coming up from the midst of the sea:

26 The same is he whom God the Highest hath kept a great season, which by his own self shall deliver his creature: and he shall order them that are left behind.

27 And whereas thou sawest, that out of his mouth there came as a blast of wind, and fire, and storm;

28 And that he held neither sword, nor any instrument of war, but that the rushing in of him destroyed the whole multitude that came to subdue him; this is the interpretation:

29 Behold, the days come, when the most High will begin to deliver them that are upon the earth.

30 And he shall come to the astonishment of them that dwell on the earth

What's this got to do with it?

 

[John S]

The Pre-Trib Rapture doctrine is Satan's greatest deception. It is a truly amazing way to sneak the AC past unsuspecting people.
I am still here, therefore, so and so is NOT the antichrist.
Jesus Christ DID warn that "Many will be deceived".

 

[bibletruth469]

I wanted to make a quick comment. I believe that scripture teaches that Matt 24 and 1 thes 4 are different events.

Matt 24 is after the tribulation when Christ gathers His elect that are saved in Him.jews and Gentiles alike . Christ comes to the earth at that time.

I thes 4 is the rapture where believers in Christ are caught up to the air to meet him in the clouds.

 

[John S]

The Elect consists of ONLY 144,000 first born males from the Tribes of Israel, except for Dan, from which the antichrist will come.
IF there is a Rapture, it will be Post-Trib.

 

[Shocker]

The Pre-Trib Rapture doctrine is Satan's greatest deception. It is a truly amazing way to sneak the AC past unsuspecting people.
I am still here, therefore, so and so is NOT the antichrist.
Jesus Christ DID warn that "Many will be deceived".

That makes no sense.

The rapture has nothing to do with spotting the antichrist.

When he reveals himself, we will know if we are still here.

Its that simple.


Christians will go strong to the end waiting for Christ, if they lose their faith over the rapture not happening when they want, they were never saved to begin with.

 

[John S]

That makes no sense.

The rapture has nothing to do with spotting the antichrist.

When he reveals himself, we will know if we are still here.

Its that simple.


Christians will go strong to the end waiting for Christ, if they lose their faith over the rapture not happening when they want, they were never saved to begin with.

What is the one belief that Pre-Tribbers have? - That they will be gone when the antichrist arrives.
Basically - "God PROMISED us that when the AC arrives, we will be gone. I am still here, so that person is NOT the antichrist".
It's simple logic.

There is NO such thing as "being saved" until one dies and then GOD determines whether a person is worthy of going to Heaven or not. A person who claims that he or she is "saved" and will be going to Heaven is committing blasphemy.

 

[Shocker]

What is the one belief that Pre-Tribbers have? - That they will be gone when the antichrist arrives.
Basically - "God PROMISED us that when the AC arrives, we will be gone. I am still here, so that person is NOT the antichrist".
It's simple logic.

There is NO such thing as "being saved" until one dies and then GOD determines whether a person is worthy of going to Heaven or not. A person who claims that he or she is "saved" and will be going to Heaven is committing blasphemy.

I am saved, and I am going to heaven.

My faith in Christ and his promise are immoveable.


Im not a pretribber, so I guess I see why you are confused.

 

[Shocker]

What's this got to do with it?

People cant be left behind if some people aren't taken..

People left behind cant come to salvation if the 70th week of Daniel is completed.


Concerning the rapture, Ive always taken a prewrath stance, I do not believe that Christ is coming to rapture the church prior to the abomination, but then I don't really spend any time thinking about the rapture to be honest.

 

[rollinTHUNDER]

I wanted to make a quick comment. I believe that scripture teaches that Matt 24 and 1 thes 4 are different events.

Matt 24 is after the tribulation when Christ gathers His elect that are saved in Him.jews and Gentiles alike . Christ comes to the earth at that time.

I thes 4 is the rapture where believers in Christ are caught up to the air to meet him in the clouds.

They look the same to me, allowing that people often describe things differently. Here's my same view, only from a different angle this time, beginning with the great tribulation..............

Remember also, that the remnant (one-third) of the Jews will escape by fleeing to the mountains.

Matthew 24:15-21
When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Then sometime after the remnant escapes to the mountains, those days of tribulation will be shortened for the sake of the elect (chosen), which are the remnant of believers or those who are ready when the Son of man appears. This must happen to fulfill (1 Thes. 4:17), otherwise no flesh would be saved, and the beast would overcome the entire body of Christ (all those that will return to reign with Christ at the second coming).

Matthew 24:22
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, the shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

Where the eagles gather around the dead bodies (Jerusalem) shows where the Lord will descend to in the clouds, like the lightning flashing from east to west, to meet His faithful servants in the air, those who are ready.

Matthew 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Many believe the passage above is the second coming, but it is actually the rapture, for judgment begins with the house of the Lord (1 Pet. 4:17). The second coming to the earth won't happen until Christ returns to judge the nations (Matt. 25:31), separating the sheep and goats. The goats will be cast into the fire and the sheep will enter into the millennial kingdom in their mortal bodies and be ruled over by Christ and His returning saints, which includes the saints who are ready (taken), and the saints who are not ready and (left) to be martyred (overcome by the beast) . The goats are destroyed (wrath) right after the Lord rewards with His saints and faithful servants as seen in the passage below.

Revelation 11:18
The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come, And the time of the dead, that they should be judged, And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, And those who fear Your name, small and great, And should destroy those who destroy the earth.

Now let's proceed with caution

Matthew 24:36-51
But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and
would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Of course this is not going to be popular, especially with the pre-trib fans out there. Nevertheless, this is my theory in a nutshell and I'm stickin' to it.

Cheers

 

[Shocker]

They look the same to me, allowing that people often describe things differently. Here's my same view, only from a different angle this time, beginning with the great tribulation..............

Remember also, that the remnant (one-third) of the Jews will escape by fleeing to the mountains.

Matthew 24:15-21
When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Then sometime after the remnant escapes to the mountains, those days of tribulation will be shortened for the sake of the elect (chosen), which are the remnant of believers or those who are ready when the Son of man appears. This must happen to fulfill (1 Thes. 4:17), otherwise no flesh would be saved, and the beast would overcome the entire body of Christ (all those that will return to reign with Christ at the second coming).

Matthew 24:22
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, the shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

Where the eagles gather around the dead bodies (Jerusalem) shows where the Lord will descend to in the clouds, like the lightning flashing from east to west, to meet His faithful servants in the air, those who are ready.

Matthew 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Many believe the passage above is the second coming, but it is actually the rapture, for judgment begins with the house of the Lord (1 Pet. 4:17). The second coming to the earth won't happen until Christ returns to judge the nations (Matt. 25:31), separating the sheep and goats. The goats will be cast into the fire and the sheep will enter into the millennial kingdom in their mortal bodies and be ruled over by Christ and His returning saints, which includes the saints who are ready (taken), and the saints who are not ready and (left) to be martyred (overcome by the beast) . The goats are destroyed (wrath) right after the Lord rewards with His saints and faithful servants as seen in the passage below.

Revelation 11:18
The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come, And the time of the dead, that they should be judged, And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, And those who fear Your name, small and great, And should destroy those who destroy the earth.

Now let's proceed with caution

Matthew 24:36-51
But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and
would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Of course this is not going to be popular, especially with the pre-trib fans out there. Nevertheless, this is my theory in a nutshell and I'm stickin' to it.

Cheers

I don't see anything I really disagree with here to be honest..

Maybe the eagles bit..

 

[rollinTHUNDER]

I don't see anything I really disagree with here to be honest..

Maybe the eagles bit..

Well that's just a minor clue. What gets me, is one thing that usually gets overlooked and/or ignored is that the days of tribulation being shortened for the sake of the elect., otherwise no flesh would be saved. That's huge!

 

[Shocker]

Well that's just a minor clue. What gets me, is one thing that usually gets overlooked and/or ignored is that the days of tribulation being shortened for the sake of the elect., otherwise no flesh would be saved. That's huge!

HUGE...

And this..

Rev 3:10 'Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

3:10 is the only one that confuses me.. Clearly its talking about the rapture, but it makes it seem as if it takes place before the "hour of testing"..

What is the hour of testing? 7 years? 3.5? Gods wrath?


Have you come up with anything on this?

 

[Old Timer]

Hold on... here comes Matthew 24..

LOL

 

[rollinTHUNDER]

HUGE...

And this..

Rev 3:10 'Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

3:10 is the only one that confuses me.. Clearly its talking about the rapture, but it makes it seem as if it takes place before the "hour of testing"..

What is the hour of testing? 7 years? 3.5? Gods wrath?


Have you come up with anything on this?

Two questions come to mind here. What exactly is the hour, and what is this coming trial?

An hour can have two meanings. It can be either a literal measurement of sixty minutes, or it can also be a brief period or short span of time. Then we have the trial, which is said to be a testing of all the inhabitants of the earth, with the exception of those who will be kept from this hour. If those who are kept from the hour of trial are raptured beforehand, as I believe they will be, then those who are left will then be tested. If people missed the rapture, it seems that the only logical thing that the inhabitants of the earth would be tested on would be whether or not they will take the mark of the beast.

Only four types of people will remain after the rapture, martyrs who will refuse the mark of the beast, the remnant of Jews who will flee into the mountains, the sheep and goats that will be judged when Christ returns to judge the nations.

If everyone, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave are forced to take the mark of the beast, this will be a monumental task that will require a global government. No wonder this beast has ten horns. It's highly likely the world will be divided up into ten regions. Then the ten kings will be empowered to implement and enforce the forbidden mark of the beast.

Revelation 17:12-13
And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. (13) These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

So it appears that the hour of trial that will come upon all of the inhabitants of the earth is very likely to be the same hour the ten kings will appear on the world stage. This will definitely not be a literal 60 minute hour. It will take at least a couple weeks to accomplish this evil deed, so I would guess the hour of trial will last about a month. I'm guessing a month because Daniel said these wonders would run 1290 days (Dan. 12:11-12). This still leaves 45 extra days (1335) for the Lord to return with His saints and destroy this evil empire and to save the remaining survivors of the nations.

2 Thessalonians 2:9-12
The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, (10) and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. (11) And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, (12) that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

I believe the strong delusion also relates to the mark of the beast as well. The false prophet will pull the wool over the unbelievers eyes with his lying wonders. He will probably make the mark of the beast sound wonderful and say how necessary it is for security purposes, not to mention how it will prevent identity theft. But it's just a strong delusion for those who do not love the truth.

Revelation 19:19-21
Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage war against the rider on the horse and his army. (20) But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur. (21) The rest were killed with the sword coming out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh.

Anyway, we can't positively know exactly how long the hour of trial will last, but I do believe it is the time when the mark of the beast is implemented.

Cheers

 

[Jerico Miles]

IF there is a Rapture, it will be Post-Trib.

Wait. If you know for certain it's Post-Trib, how is it you're not sure "IF" there is a Rapture?

 

[Shocker]

An hour means a short period of time. The ten kings will reign with the beast for one hour = short time, which could be a few weeks, month, six months.

Anyway, we can't know exactly how long it will last, but I believe it is the time when the mark of the beast is implemented. They will make it sound good, and that it is necessary, but it's a strong delusion for those who did not love the truth. I believe the rapture will happen just before this time, whenever that is?

Well then my friend, we share nearly identical beliefs based on what weve both read independent of each other..

Glad to have you here.. We need more like you..

 

[bibletruth469]

I believe that Matt 24 is mentioning different events. One needs to follow the passage with certain words to show that a different event that Jesus spoke about has taken place. Remember, the original text contained no verses, chapters or headings . For a good study, one should study the Greek words to see what it means in the original language. Words like, ' so when', ' then',' for then', ' but concerning that day'.

Anyway, in my opinion, Jesus is not just speaking only about 1 event, but a prophecy of more than one event. I am referring to Matt 24 only. Not the parables of Matt 25.

For example , Jesus mentioned different things in his conversation with the disciples . 1 st are the signs of the close of the age, 2nd , 3 1/2 into the tribulation 3rd, second coming of Christ, 4 th, Jesus changes his thought and mentions about the day and hour which no man knows . A very careful reading must be taken of this complex chapter of scripture .

 

[Old Timer]

Context used to mean something..

When the scriptures speak of those in Judaea fleeing to the mountains and to pray that your flight doesn't come on the sabbath day..

That should tell people something..

 

[dfw69]

I believe that Matt 24 is mentioning different events. One needs to follow the passage with certain words to show that a different event that Jesus spoke about has taken place. Remember, the original text contained no verses, chapters or headings . For a good study, one should study the Greek words to see what it means in the original language. Words like, ' so when', ' then',' for then', ' but concerning that day'.

Anyway, in my opinion, Jesus is not just speaking only about 1 event, but a prophecy of more than one event. I am referring to Matt 24 only. Not the parables of Matt 25.

For example , Jesus mentioned different things in his conversation with the disciples . 1 st are the signs of the close of the age, 2nd , 3 1/2 into the tribulation 3rd, second coming of Christ, 4 th, Jesus changes his thought and mentions about the day and hour which no man knows . A very careful reading must be taken of this complex chapter of scripture .

True that

 

[rollinTHUNDER]

Well then my friend, we share nearly identical beliefs based on what weve both read independent of each other..

Glad to have you here.. We need more like you..

Thanks, brother.

Hey you're not tryin' to recruit me, are ya?