Why I believe the rapture will be before the tribulation.

[Bible2]

SG9 said in post 338:

I see the so called 'rapture' as when the Bridegroom and the Bride are approached the Altar in their respective order, the Groom first and then the Bride.

Do you mean the altar in the 3rd heaven (Revelation 6:9, cf. 2 Corinthians 12:2c)? If so, note that no scripture requires that believers will be raptured any higher than the clouds of the sky (the 1st heaven) to hold a meeting in the air with Jesus at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17). After that meeting, in which the church will be judged by Jesus (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27) and the obedient part of the church will be married to Jesus (Revelation 19:7, Matthew 25:1-13), the obedient part of the church will come back down from the sky (the 1st heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:15-21) to reign on the earth with him for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). After the 1,000 years and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-15, Ezekiel chapters 38-39), the obedient part of the church will live on the new earth with God the Father and Jesus in the literal city of New Jerusalem (Revelation chapters 21-22).

SG9 said in post 338:

The so called 'tribulation' is what follows after the man and the woman are married . . .

The 10-virgins parable (Matthew 25:1-13) shows that the marriage of the church to Jesus won't occur until his 2nd coming (Matthew 25:10), which Jesus had just finished saying won't occur until "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31), just like Revelation 19:7 shows that the marriage won't occur until after the (never fulfilled) tribulation, shown in Revelation chapters 6 to 18. The parable's extra oil (Matthew 25:4,9b) could represent the continued good works of believers, by which they will be able to pass the judgment of the church by Jesus (Matthew 25:19-30, Romans 2:6-8) and enter the marriage of the church to Jesus at his 2nd coming (Matthew 25:10, Revelation 19:7-21).

The marriage supper (Revelation 19:9) won't have yet begun by the time of Revelation 19, which won't begin until after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (cf. Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). For regarding the church, the marriage supper will be a literal feast in the earthly Jerusalem after the resurrection and marriage of the church at Jesus' 2nd coming (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-54). While the church will enjoy a feast "of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined" (Isaiah 25:6), the birds will feast on the corpses of the world's armies defeated at Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:17-21).

Also, regarding the 10-virgins parable, in Matthew 25:6 "midnight" could represent mid-tribulation, when the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) could be set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31). So when it says "at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh" (Matthew 25:6), this could mean that at the mid-tribulation point when the abomination of desolation is set up, the church will be given the knowledge of the date (as in the year, month, and day) of Jesus' 2nd coming. This date could be the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation is set up (Daniel 12:11-12, cf. Revelation 16:15).

 

[Biblewriter]

And, of course all of the future returns are... future? You will always say yes, I already know.

Thanks

Unless you can demonstrate a return of Christ that has already taken place, then all of them must indeed be future.

I know that there are people that claim that Our Lord returned in AD 70, but that is too obviously false to even consider.

 

[SG9]

Unless you can demonstrate a return of Christ that has already taken place, then all of them must indeed be future.

I know that there are people that claim that Our Lord returned in AD 70, but that is too obviously false to even consider.

Hi BW, isn't this the typical response that we, or I always hear?

If I say that Christ is here with us and in us you have no problem because you yourself live on this premise but when it comes to telling it like it is you come up with your song and dance routine. So, which is it, is Christ here with us and in us or are we liars as you now pose from the other corner of the room?

It's almost as if you just stripped off your garments and stand nude in front of heaven.

You don't know enough to know it all, no, not even I know all there is to know but I can reason with reality, and the truth.

Thanks

 

[Biblewriter]

Hi BW, isn't this the typical response that we, or I always hear?

If I say that Christ is here with us and in us you have no problem because you yourself live on this premise but when it comes to telling it like it is you come up with your song and dance routine. So, which is it, is Christ here with us and in us or are we liars as you now pose from the other corner of the room?

It's almost as if you just stripped off your garments and stand nude in front of heaven.

You don't know enough to know it all, no, not even I know all there is to know but I can reason with reality, and the truth.

Thanks

God is here with us, in the person of the Holy Spirit. But Christ is in heaven, and is coming back. The scriptures plainly declare this in many places:

"In My Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also." (John 14:2)

"Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, who also said, 'Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.'" (Acts 1:9-1)

"you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come." (1 Thessalonians 1:9-10)

"These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed." (2 Thessalonians 1:9-10)

"Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition," (2 Thessalonians 2:1-3)

"Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place--unless you repent." (Revelation 2:5)

"Repent, or else I will come to you quickly and will fight against them with the sword of My mouth." (Revelation 2:16)

"But hold fast what you have till I come." (Revelation 2:25)

"Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you." (Revelation 3:3)

 

[SG9]

God is here with us, in the person of the Holy Spirit. But Christ is in heaven, and is coming back. The scriptures plainly declare this in many places:

"In My Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also." (John 14:2)

"Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, who also said, 'Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.'" (Acts 1:9-1)

"you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come." (1 Thessalonians 1:9-10)

"These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed." (2 Thessalonians 1:9-10)

"Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition," (2 Thessalonians 2:1-3)

"Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place--unless you repent." (Revelation 2:5)

"Repent, or else I will come to you quickly and will fight against them with the sword of My mouth." (Revelation 2:16)

"But hold fast what you have till I come." (Revelation 2:25)

"Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you." (Revelation 3:3)

In your opening statement you mention "the person of the Holy Spirit", and I ask you who is this person?

You will need to claim that this person is millions of people who make up the church, right or wrong?

Refer to John 16:13 before answering, and keep it in context.

The context is either of a single man or millions of the one person so please elaborate on your point, please? Thanks

 

[Biblewriter]

In your opening statement you mention "the person of the Holy Spirit", and I ask you who is this person?

You will need to claim that this person is millions of people who make up the church, right or wrong?

Refer to John 16:13 before answering, and keep it in context.

The context is either of a single man or millions of the one person so please elaborate on your point, please? Thanks

The Holy Spirit is an individual, just like the Father and the Son. He most certainly is not millions of individuals. He indwells millions, but He is a single individual. This is elementary Christian doctrine.

 

[shturt678s]

God is here with us, in the person of the Holy Spirit. But Christ is in heaven, and is coming back. The scriptures plainly declare this in many places:

"In My Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also." (John 14:2)

"Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, who also said, 'Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.'" (Acts 1:9-1)

"you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come." (1 Thessalonians 1:9-10)

"These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed." (2 Thessalonians 1:9-10)

"Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition," (2 Thessalonians 2:1-3)

"Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place--unless you repent." (Revelation 2:5)

"Repent, or else I will come to you quickly and will fight against them with the sword of My mouth." (Revelation 2:16)

"But hold fast what you have till I come." (Revelation 2:25)

"Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you." (Revelation 3:3)

The Person of the Holy Spirit, ie, God the Holy Spirit is here with us as Jesus in His Person is in heaven with God the Father. Responding due to finally agreeing to agree with you - a good start!

Old respectful Jack

 

[dfw69]

Dang... How many preterist does it take to gang up on biblewriter ?

Give the poor old man a break ...

 

[dfw69]

The Holy Spirit is an individual, just like the Father and the Son. He most certainly is not millions of individuals. He indwells millions, but He is a single individual. This is elementary Christian doctrine.

Amen biblewriter

If I may add the Holy Spirit in us is symbolic of his workings and teachings in us

We are one... In purpose mind and spirit

 

[shturt678s]

Dang... How many preterist does it take to gang up on biblewriter ?

Give the poor old man a break ...

Old non-preterist (Amill.) "nowist" Jack - Amen BW (post 346)!

btw God the Holy Spirit is a Person God

 

[dfw69]

Old non-preterist (Amill.) "nowist" Jack - Amen BW (post 346)!

btw God the Holy Spirit is a Person God

Was not refering to you jack... You sir... Are a kind man

 

[ebedmelech]

The rapture occurs on the last day! Living Christians are raptured...Christians who died are resurrected.

The is no scripture saying Christan leave before a *tribulation*...it's just bad interpretation.

 

[dfw69]

The rapture occurs on the last day! Living Christians are raptured...Christians who died are resurrected.

The is no scripture saying Christan leave before a *tribulation*...it's just bad interpretation.

Will see ebed...

 

[SG9]

The Holy Spirit is an individual, just like the Father and the Son. He most certainly is not millions of individuals. He indwells millions, but He is a single individual. This is elementary Christian doctrine.

You are jumping around again; If the HS is a person then, where is he or she? Does it have a gender?
Is it in flesh?
If not flesh then, how does it become a person, and even how can the Father be also a person if he not dwell in flesh?
If the Father is the one dwelling in us then, why do all people not believe alike on every thing?
How can there be controversy in the Temple of God if He is seated on the throne instead of Satan the Antichrist?
How can a person dwell within another?
When does it speak to us?
How do we hear it?
Who is hearing it?
Why then are there so many different belief's about the HS?
Who is the interpreter for the HS or does it speak for itself if it's a person?
Or, is a a deaf and dumb mute?
When did it come?
Who did it come to?
Who is the HS if it's not of the father and the son?
Are you saying that it's a third person?
Where is it now?
What has it told you about the end-days that we should know about?
Does the HS also bring the third angels message or is that something else and even in a different time?

I have more questions for when this gets really good. I can agree with you on some points but not et al, and in no-way am I a preterist when it is I who am bringing this all up to date and into the the present-day, and it's rather contrary to the definition of a preterist.

Dang... How many preterist does it take to gang up on biblewriter ?

Give the poor old man a break ...

Oh my, the poor boy

 

[shturt678s]

Was not refering to you jack... You sir... Are a kind man

Sorry, sinful guilty conscience - usually considered the 'bad guy" wrestler type on these threads - thank you for the word of encouragement.

Old Jack

 

[bibletruth469]

You are jumping around again; If the HS is a person then, where is he or she? Does it have a gender? Is it in flesh? If not flesh then, how does it become a person, and even how can the Father be also a person if he not dwell in flesh? If the Father is the one dwelling in us then, why do all people not believe alike on every thing? How can there be controversy in the Temple of God if He is seated on the throne instead of Satan the Antichrist? How can a person dwell within another? When does it speak to us? How do we hear it? Who is hearing it? Why then are there so many different belief's about the HS? Who is the interpreter for the HS or does it speak for itself if it's a person? Or, is a a deaf and dumb mute? When did it come? Who did it come to? Who is the HS if it's not of the father and the son? Are you saying that it's a third person? Where is it now? What has it told you about the end-days that we should know about? Does the HS also bring the third angels message or is that something else and even in a different time? I have more questions for when this gets really good. I can agree with you on some points but not et al, and in no-way am I a preterist when it is I who am bringing this all up to date and into the the present-day, and it's rather contrary to the definition of a preterist. Oh my, the poor boy

The Holy Spirit is the 3rd part of the trinity of God. The Godhead is one but in 3 persons . There is God , the father , God the son, and God the Holy Spirit . They all work in different and complete ways. The Holy Spirit is known for example as our great teacher, comforter and counselor . We can pray through the power of the Holy Spirit . Look at acts 1 and 2. You can see the awesome power and works of the Holy Spirit. .

 

[dfw69]

Oh my, the poor boy

I know right?.... My thoughts exactly

 

[shturt678s]

'Bad guy' wrestler side, not trying to wrestle the Sciptures, ie, The union of the three divine Persons (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) in the Godhead (state of being God) where all three are "co-equal," "co-eternal," and "co-substantial."

Simply show where the Godman Jesus doesn't equal God grammatically and contextually in Jn.1:1, then I'll recant all.

Old recantable and refutable bad guy wrestler Jack

 

[Biblewriter]

Dang... How many preterist does it take to gang up on biblewriter ?

Give the poor old man a break ...

I am used to people ganging up on me. But the scriptures are stronger than all of them at the same time.