Why I Am A Continuationist

[Xeno.of.athens]

The Apostle John warned: "Believe not every spirit but test the spirits whether they are of God because many false prophets have gone out into the world." In view of this, we need to apply the test to every group that professes to teach "the truth". The best test is whether they preach the true Gospel of Christ or not. Paul said in Galatians: "if any one, even an angel comes preaching another gospel, let him be accursed". But what is the Gospel? Paul made that clear in 1 Corinthians 15:
"Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain. 3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance[a]: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures"

Any group that does not make their foundation the gospel that Paul preached to the Corinthians as set out in the passage, is the one that has departed from sound doctrine and gone after fables.

There are Pentecostal groups that deny the Trinity, and yet in all other respects they are exactly the same as those Pentecostal groups that do hold to the Trinity, but only those who do hold to the Trinity are truly Christian. Those who don't are pseudo-christian cults. The deception is that on the outward appearance they appear exactly the same as all other Pentecostals.

There are other groups that tell us that they have new revelation from God that makes them superior than more traditional groups. These are the ones who teach that we can be gods, that we must be more than just being like Jesus, rather we must become Jesus, that healing is absolutely guaranteed, and if a person is declared healed they are to ignore their symptoms (Christian Science teaching), also teaching that we can have Apostles today just like the Apostles of Christ, who are able to perform the same signs and wonders that the 1st Century ones did. Also they have exchanged the gospel preached by Paul, with a modern 'gospel' based on experiences. Christ dying on the Cross for our sins and rising from the dead is not taught, but that Jesus is our friend who will give us everything we want if we name and claim it.

Because this group have departed from sound doctrine and put their faith in experiences, all sorts of weird and wonderful manifestations happen in their services, like receiving the "occult touch" that makes people fall down, "slain in the spirit", roll around the floor, bark like dogs, violently nod their heads from side to side, run around like crazy people, uncontrolled laughter, loud babbling in gibberish, repeated pagan mantras like "send down the oil" repeated continually for up to an hour. Groups like this need to be avoided like the plague, because they have a strong element of New Age occult, Hinduism, New Thought (involving hypnotism, Buddhism and paranormal experiences), and Christian Science. The deception about these groups is that they are to all appearances the same as the Pentecostalism of the early 20th Century and the original Charismatic revival of the 1960s involving Dennis Bennett. But the original Pentecostals and Charismatics had the gospel involving Jesus dying on the Cross for our sins and rising from the dead as the primary focus of their preaching, and the signs and wonders happened through the sovereignty of God as He through His own choice honoured their preaching and soul winning for the Lord.

It seems to me that you're aware of quite a good number of Pentecostal groups that one should never go near. So never go near them.

PS: The group that I mentioned earlier that is called "the Church of the Living God" is not Pentecostal. They're much closer to being a Baptist Church that has, for whatever reason, adopted the stand that their current leader is an apostle. That would in my opinion imply that they have some kind of charismatic leaning. But aside from that, they don't appear to make any claim to holding amongst their membership any number of prophets or seers or other people gifted with revelation from God.

Given the number of groups that really have gone very strange because they hold to current day revelation. I would be inclined to say it makes more sense to stay away from charismatic and Pentecostal groups all together. Groups are open to all sorts of abuses connected to their belief in the continuation of miraculous gifts of one kind or another. That belief, in itself, seems to be at the heart of every other mistake that those groups make.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

It seems to me that you're aware of quite a good number of Pentecostal groups that one should never go near. So never go near them.

PS: The group that I mentioned earlier that is called "the Church of the Living God" is not Pentecostal. They're much closer to being a Baptist Church that has, for whatever reason, adopted the stand that their current leader is an apostle. That would in my opinion imply that they have some kind of charismatic leaning. But aside from that, they don't appear to make any claim to holding amongst their membership any number of prophets or seers or other people gifted with revelation from God.

Given the number of groups that really have gone very strange because they hold to current day revelation. I would be inclined to say it makes more sense to stay away from charismatic and Pentecostal groups all together. Groups are open to all sorts of abuses connected to their belief in the continuation of miraculous gifts of one kind or another. That belief, in itself, seems to be at the heart of every other mistake that those groups make.

When I moved to Christchurch NZ at the end of 2019 after 23 years with a suburban Presbyterian church in Auckland I had the choice to join up with a middle of the road Elim Pentecostal church, but I decided against it, and chose a small Union (Presbyerian/Methodist) church five minutes down the road from my home. If we had 20 people to a service we would think that a revival! We get around 12 to 15 people to a Sunday Service, and the mainly elderly folk have no interest in the Charismatic. They are a great group, and I increased the male membership by 50%. They put me to work as the treasurer and property convenor, and I get to take a worship service around every six weeks, So, at my stage of life I fit in well and it suits me fine.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

When I moved to Christchurch NZ at the end of 2019 after 23 years with a suburban Presbyterian church in Auckland I had the choice to join up with a middle of the road Elim Pentecostal church, but I decided against it, and chose a small Union (Presbyerian/Methodist) church five minutes down the road from my home. If we had 20 people to a service we would think that a revival! We get around 12 to 15 people to a Sunday Service, and the mainly elderly folk have no interest in the Charismatic. They are a great group, and I increased the male membership by 50%. They put me to work as the treasurer and property convenor, and I get to take a worship service around every six weeks, So, at my stage of life I fit in well and it suits me fine.

That little church is about 50% bigger than a typical home group from my parish. We normally have eight people attending a home group. but in recent years, the home groups have mostly closed down. Instead, we have Bible studies and Lent and advent groups They meet inside the church. offices, in one of the meeting rooms and usually, one of the priests chairs the meeting.

Is there an Anglican or a Catholic Church in your locale? You might find attending one of those two could be helpful. I imagine there may be more people attending those. but that would depend on the population of the area that you're in.

So, I'm left wondering why you call yourself Presbyterian charismatic If in fact, you're not attending a charismatic or a Pentecostal church?

As a little postscript about nothing very important. In today's mail I received my handmade leather cover for my Ave Maria press note taking Bible. It's very pretty.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

That little church is about 50% bigger than a typical home group from my parish. We normally have eight people attending a home group. but in recent years, the home groups have mostly closed down. Instead, we have Bible studies and Lent and advent groups They meet inside the church. offices, in one of the meeting rooms. and usually one of the priests. wheelchair the meeting.

Is there an Anglican or a Catholic Church in your locale? You might find attending one of those two could be helpful. I imagine there may be more people attending those. but that would depend on the population of the area that you're in.

So I'm left wondering why you? call yourself Presbyterian charismatic if in fact, you're not attending Hey, charismatic or a Pentecostal church?

As a little postscript about. nothing very important. in today's mail I received my handmaid leather cover for. my Ave Maria press. note taking Bible. It's very pretty.

I call myself a Charismatic, because I subscribe to Pentecostal theology which is basic Westminster Confession with belief in the modern use of the spiritual gifts added. I don't subscribe to the word faith theology of the modern Charismatic signs and wonders movement fathered by Kenneth Hagin, and supported by disciples such as Kenneth Copeland, Bill Johnson, Creflo Dollar, Jesse Duplantis, Joyce Meyer. I term them "Neo-Charismatics" who have moved on in their theology from the Pentecostals of the early 20th Century and the Charismatics of the 1960s. These Neo-Charismatics have a marked difference in theology and worship practice and certainly not the Pentecostalism I signed up for in 1966.

One doesn't have to attend a Charismatic church to be a Charismatic. the feature of being Charismatic is that it is a personal theology and the movement spread around many of the mainstream churches (Methodist, Presbyterian, Baptist, Anglican, Catholic in the 1960s. The Neo-Charismatics gradually parted company with those churches and formed their own separate groups, such as the Vineyard with John Wimber, Lakeland, with Todd Bentley, Bethel (Bill Johnson), Hillsong (Brian Houston) and other groups known by the ones (previously mentioned) who fronted them.

I am going to change my user name to "Presbyterian Continuist" which would be more accurate, but I have to wait until 1 February to do that.

Enjoy your Bible cover. (friendly smile).

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

I call myself a Charismatic, because I subscribe to Pentecostal theology which is basic Westminster Confession with belief in the modern use of the spiritual gifts added. I don't subscribe to the word faith theology of the modern Charismatic signs and wonders movement fathered by Kenneth Hagin, and supported by disciples such as Kenneth Copeland, Bill Johnson, Creflo Dollar, Jesse Duplantis, Joyce Meyer. I term them "Neo-Charismatics" who have moved on in their theology from the Pentecostals of the early 20th Century and the Charismatics of the 1960s. These Neo-Charismatics have a marked difference in theology and worship practice and certainly not the Pentecostalism I signed up for in 1966.

One doesn't have to attend a Charismatic church to be a Charismatic. the feature of being Charismatic is that it is a personal theology and the movement spread around many of the mainstream churches (Methodist, Presbyterian, Baptist, Anglican, Catholic in the 1960s. The Neo-Charismatics gradually parted company with those churches and formed their own separate groups, such as the Vineyard with John Wimber, Lakeland, with Todd Bentley, Bethel (Bill Johnson), Hillsong (Brian Houston) and other groups known by the ones (previously mentioned) who fronted them.

I am going to change my user name to "Presbyterian Continuist" which would be more accurate, but I have to wait until 1 February to do that.

Enjoy your Bible cover. (friendly smile).

Looking at the quote at the top of your post, I realised that my voice to text translation Is not so good. For example, wheelchair should be will chair. There are more examples, but I won't quote them because it will get boring. I use voice to text so that my fingers and hands do not get sore from typing too much. It's a recent inclusion under Windows 11, I think, I discovered it a little while ago, and now I'm using it.

I am enjoying the leather Bible cover. It's quite nice.

 

[TPop]

...there is nothing in the New Testament that the decline and cease of the spiritual gifts were the result of some decree of God.

True. Most would agree.

If God meant for the gifts to be temporary, He would have clearly said so.

This is your belief. Perhaps not based on scripture.

Signs and Wonders, I believe, were always used to support the statement of a prophet, apostle, or such. The signs and wonders were to demonstrate that Jesus approved of the message delivered. That the deliverer was in alignment with Jesus.

Signs and Wonders were never to show the Signs and Wonders in and of themselves. They were a part of something greater.

We have all Revelation now. The book is finished. There is nothing more until Jesus returns. So there are no more signs and wonders by men, where Jesus supports their truth or teachings. Now all teachings are demonstrated as truth by comparing them to scripture.

Peace and Blessings

 

[Guojing]

True. Most would agree.


This is your belief. Perhaps not based on scripture.

Signs and Wonders, I believe, were always used to support the statement of a prophet, apostle, or such. The signs and wonders were to demonstrate that Jesus approved of the message delivered. That the deliverer was in alignment with Jesus.

Signs and Wonders were never to show the Signs and Wonders in and of themselves. They were a part of something greater.

We have all Revelation now. The book is finished. There is nothing more until Jesus returns. So there are no more signs and wonders by men, where Jesus supports their truth or teachings. Now all teachings are demonstrated as truth by comparing them to scripture.

Peace and Blessings

I think it helps if more charismatics understand the significance of what Paul said in 1 Corinthians 1:22

For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:

Once they understood, then as long as God is dealing with the nation of Israel, signs and wonders will be present (John 4:22, John 20:30-31)

But once Israel has fallen (Romans 11:11), albeit temporarily (Romans 11:25), their signs have also ceased for now.

There is thus no need for any explicit scripture stating "The signs have ceased for now".

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I think it helps if more charismatics understand the significance of what Paul said in 1 Corinthians 1:22

For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:

Once they understood, then as long as God is dealing with the nation of Israel, signs and wonders will be present (John 4:22, John 20:30-31)

But once Israel has fallen (Romans 11:11), albeit temporarily (Romans 11:25), their signs have also ceased for now.

There is thus no need for any explicit scripture stating "The signs have ceased for now".

Paul's definition of "sign" in 1 Corinthians 1:22 is not the same definition of the type of signs and wonders that accompany the preaching of the Gospel. Paul said that it is the Gospel of Christ that is the power of God unto salvation to those who believe. The signs and wonders are part of that power and therefore limited directly to the preaching of the Gospel to the unsaved so that they will believe that Jesus died on the Cross for their sins. The signs and wonders are not for Christians, and the only reference concerning healing for Christians is the one in James where a sick believer is to call for the elders who will pray the prayer of faith over him.

Your reason the signing having 'ceased for now' comes from eisegesis (reading things into Scripture that are not there) not exegesis of Scripture plainly written.

1 Corinthians 4:6 says: "Now, brothers and sisters, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, “Do not go beyond what is written.” Then you will not be puffed up in being a follower of one of us over against the other."

This is quite clear that we are prohibited teaching stuff that goes beyond what is actually written in Scripture. Therefore to say that the sign gifts have ceased and replaced by the canon of Scripture, or that the church is now established and they are not needed, is going beyond what has been written and therefore is a denial of God's instructions in His Word. To go beyond what is actually written in Scripture is going into dangerous territory and opening one's self up to deception.

The sign that the Jews were after is the sign of the conquering Messiah riding in on his horse as warrior kick the Romans out and rescue Israel.

 

[Guojing]

Paul's definition of "sign" in 1 Corinthians 1:22 is not the same definition of the type of signs and wonders that accompany the preaching of the Gospel. Paul said that it is the Gospel of Christ that is the power of God unto salvation to those who believe. The signs and wonders are part of that power and therefore limited directly to the preaching of the Gospel to the unsaved so that they will believe that Jesus died on the Cross for their sins. The signs and wonders are not for Christians, and the only reference concerning healing for Christians is the one in James where a sick believer is to call for the elders who will pray the prayer of faith over him.

Your explanation does not appear to contradict my point. Are you supporting it?

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Your explanation does not appear to contradict my point. Are you supporting it?

The so called sign gift of tongues was not what the Jews were seeking after. The Jews were seeking after signs of the coming of the Messiah long before tongues came on the Day of Pentecost. Tongues are a sign only when the language spoken is directly understood by a native speaker of the language. It is a sign to unbelievers that the Gospel is true and while they are unbelieving, judgment is just around the corner for them. But instances of a tongue being a sign of that nature are not routine, they are quite rare. What this means that tongues are not automatically a sign in every use of it.

Anyhow, I don't really care whether tongues are a sign or not. Tongues are so being misused by modern word faith Charismatics that it has become a sign to no one. When they practice it in public it becomes just a source of ridicule by unbelievers and doesn't bring any conviction of sin, righteousness and judgment at all. The waters are so being muddied by the misuse of the gift that many sound believers are turning away from it and don't want to know about it any more. And in the same way that the gift declined and disappeared after the First Century AD, given another couple of generations it will disappear from our normal Pentecostal and Charismatic churches as well, leaving the false tongues of the word faith people.

 

[Guojing]

The so called sign gift of tongues was not what the Jews were seeking after. The Jews were seeking after signs of the coming of the Messiah long before tongues came on the Day of Pentecost. Tongues are a sign only when the language spoken is directly understood by a native speaker of the language. It is a sign to unbelievers that the Gospel is true and while they are unbelieving, judgment is just around the corner for them. But instances of a tongue being a sign of that nature are not routine, they are quite rare. What this means that tongues are not automatically a sign in every use of it.

Anyhow, I don't really care whether tongues are a sign or not. Tongues are so being misused by modern word faith Charismatics that it has become a sign to no one. When they practice it in public it becomes just a source of ridicule by unbelievers and doesn't bring any conviction of sin, righteousness and judgment at all. The waters are so being muddied by the misuse of the gift that many sound believers are turning away from it and don't want to know about it any more. And in the same way that the gift declined and disappeared after the First Century AD, given another couple of generations it will disappear from our normal Pentecostal and Charismatic churches as well, leaving the false tongues of the word faith people.

I didn't state anything about tongues in that post you were objecting to, so how is this related to my post?

 

[ARBITER01]

Paul said that it is the Gospel of Christ that is the power of God unto salvation to those who believe. The signs and wonders are part of that power and therefore limited directly to the preaching of the Gospel to the unsaved so that they will believe that Jesus died on the Cross for their sins. The signs and wonders are not for Christians, and the only reference concerning healing for Christians is the one in James where a sick believer is to call for the elders who will pray the prayer of faith over him.

I'm not sure where you are getting your teaching, but the gifts are not "limited" to preaching the gospel. They are the children's bread. For instance,...

1Co 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and severally members thereof.
1Co 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondly prophets, thirdly teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, divers kinds of tongues.

This section of scripture is identifying ministries/offices in the body. Notice that gifts of healings is a ministry to the body of Christ. It is not a ministry to the unsaved.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I didn't state anything about tongues in that post you were objecting to, so how is this related to my post?

You can answer that one yourself.

 

[enoob57]

I am a continuationist according to the gifts of the Holy Spirit because there is nothing in the New Testament that the decline and cease of the spiritual gifts were the result of some decree of God. If God meant for the gifts to be temporary, He would have clearly said so.

1 Corinthians 13:8-10 (KJV)
[8] Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
[9] For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
[10] But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

Just in case you have any doubt what that perfect is that comes
2 Timothy 3:15 (KJV)
[15] And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
[16] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
[17] That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

point being nothing can make perfect but that which is perfect...

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I'm not sure where you are getting your teaching, but the gifts are not "limited" to preaching the gospel. They are the children's bread. For instance,...

1Co 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and severally members thereof.
1Co 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondly prophets, thirdly teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, divers kinds of tongues.

This section of scripture is identifying ministries/offices in the body. Notice that gifts of healings is a ministry to the body of Christ. It is not a ministry to the unsaved.

Interestingly I just viewed the biography of David Wilkerson, A blind boy was instantly healed while he was preaching the Gospel in a South American country. He didn't know the boy had been healed until he was told. The thing that impresses me about him is that he was single minded concerning the Gospel, and his whole passion was to present Jesus and Him crucified, and he was not afraid to speak out against anything that hindered people coming to Christ. He had no time for Hagin in which he said that the way people behaved in his meetings was a total disgrace, and that Kenneth Copeland and Benny Hinn were in it only for the money and had no interest in saving souls by preaching the Gospel. Wilkerson was an old-time traditional Pentecostal, the kind I signed up with in 1966. It was through reading one of his tracts that I became convicted of my lost state and it opened me right up to hear and receive the Gospel and ultimately be saved in a Pentecostal church where they preached the Gospel.

Sadly, true Pentecostal preachers are a declining breed and once they are all gone, the church will be a poorer place.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

1 Corinthians 13:8-10 (KJV)
[8] Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
[9] For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
[10] But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

Just in case you have any doubt what that perfect is that comes
2 Timothy 3:15 (KJV)
[15] And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
[16] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
[17] That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

point being nothing can make perfect but that which is perfect...

Saying that which is perfect meanings the canon of Scripture is deceitfully handling the Word of God in order to explain away why the Holy Spirit is not manifesting His gifts in your particular church.

 

[ARBITER01]

Interestingly I just viewed the biography of David Wilkerson, A blind boy was instantly healed while he was preaching the Gospel in a South American country. He didn't know the boy had been healed until he was told. The thing that impresses me about him is that he was single minded concerning the Gospel, and his whole passion was to present Jesus and Him crucified, and he was not afraid to speak out against anything that hindered people coming to Christ. He had no time for Hagin in which he said that the way people behaved in his meetings was a total disgrace, and that Kenneth Copeland and Benny Hinn were in it only for the money and had no interest in saving souls by preaching the Gospel. Wilkerson was an old-time traditional Pentecostal, the kind I signed up with in 1966. It was through reading one of his tracts that I became convicted of my lost state and it opened me right up to hear and receive the Gospel and ultimately be saved in a Pentecostal church where they preached the Gospel.

Sadly, true Pentecostal preachers are a declining breed and once they are all gone, the church will be a poorer place.

I think you need to have more faith in what GOD is doing.

Also, the gifts are most certainly a part of the arsenal of certain positions that reach the unsaved, especially an Evangelist's office. This is clearly seen in Maria Woodworth Etters ministry across America. My point was that they are not relegated to just preaching the gospel.

 

[enoob57]

Saying that which is perfect meanings the canon of Scripture is deceitfully handling the Word of God in order to explain away why the Holy Spirit is not manifesting His gifts in your particular church.

I didn't say it God said it... Perhap I need to post it again
2 Timothy 3:15 (KJV)
[15] And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
[16] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
[17] That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

I prefer to deal with God's instruction set to mankind rather than I said he said,,, what's the value of man's opinion apart from Scripture...

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I didn't say it God said it... Perhap I need to post it again
2 Timothy 3:15 (KJV)
[15] And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
[16] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
[17] That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

I prefer to deal with God's instruction set to mankind rather than I said he said,,, what's the value of man's opinion apart from Scripture...

Apples and oranges. The coming of the perfect is not the perfection of the man of God. Using 2 Timothy 3:15 in this way is a twisting of Scripture to suit your own faulty premise. The majority of Bible commentators before the 19th Century said that the coming of the perfect meant when the bride of Christ was made perfect in glory at the second coming of Christ.

 

[enoob57]

Apples and oranges. The coming of the perfect is not the perfection of the man of God. Using 2 Timothy 3:15 in this way is a twisting of Scripture to suit your own faulty premise. The majority of Bible commentators before the 19th Century said that the coming of the perfect meant when the bride of Christ was made perfect in glory at the second coming of Christ.

The Bible properly trained will speak for itself ... it cannot be perverted such as here... it's speaking of the Scripture plainly stated and what the Scripture does...