Why I Am A Continuationist

[ARBITER01]

Seriously? Are you going to tell me that the 3/4 hour worship time in Todd Bentley's commissioning meeting in which the chanting of "send the oil" as a mantra, and widespread uncontrolled behaviour was the Holy Spirit? I don't see any of that in my Bible. And what about a prominent NAR pastor telling his congregation that the Holy Spirit told him that he needed to go further than being like Jesus, but was to progress to actually being Jesus? What about Todd White telling his gathering that instead of getting a climax through inappropriate contento, God wants to be their climax, and that when someone commits adultery, God is in the bed with them closely watching the action? However could that be the Holy Spirit in a million years! Also, the totally uncontrolled behaviour seen in Kenneth Hagin's meetings where people were acting like total idiots, including Hagin himself? Is the Holy Spirit an idiot? I think not.

The Scripture says that those who depart from sound doctrine and teach doctrines of devils and encourage crazy behaviour in meetings, should be rebuked publicly so that others will learn. Calling out false leaders and teachers before all is not slander. It is alerting believers that this type of thing is not the Holy Spirit, but another spirit that is not of God.

You're not answering my question I gave you.

 

[Ain't Zwinglian]

I'm not sure what that means.

And yes it is slander.

I like what Paul said, "But in the church I would rather speak five intelligible words to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue."

In other words, five intelligible words in a sermon from a called pastor is better than babbling a whole night of garble and gibberish.

Nope this is not slander.

 

[ARBITER01]

I like what Paul said, "But in the church I would rather speak five intelligible words to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue."

In other words, five intelligible words in a sermon from a called pastor is better than babbling a whole night of garble and gibberish.

Nope this is not slander.

Looks like you're misapplying scripture to situations. Again I don't know what that means.

We shouldn't really talk if all you have is bunch of pent up anger towards other Christians.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Oh,.... so besides outright slandering other Christians, you think anyone not operating in the gifts correctly is really just an unbeliever instead of an immature believer.

Well what about this,....

A Christian in a service is prompted by The Holy Spirit to give a tongues message, and so that person follows through and does. The congregation then waits after the message, and then another person gives an interpretation by The Holy Spirit of that message that follows the Edification, Exhortation, and Comfort standard in scripture.

This happens two more times in that service.

Was things scripturally correct?

It looks Scripturally correct to me. From how I was trained in the gifts of the Spirit, that is how they should be used.

But we are not talking about the way the gifts of the Spirit are used in a normal Pentecostal meeting. The NAR and signs and wonders Charismatics are not normal Pentecostals and they do not use the gifts of the Spirit in the way you have set out as in a normal Pentecostal meeting.

If you think that the way the Glory of Zion, run by Chuck Pierce is a normal Pentecostal meeting using the gifts in the normal way, you must be kidding! All the prophecies I have heard in those meetings don't say anything. They are just double talk. If you read the prophecies of the Old Testament you will see that they say definite things with a definite purpose. I have also viewed many prophecies of different people on the internet, and they are mostly word salads strung together, making a normal person wonder what they are talking about. And there are hundreds of these "prophets" who are saying what God is telling them, and yet they are saying basically nothing of value. When God speaks, He tells it how it is and everyone can understand exactly what He is saying and what He means. He certainly doesn't say things like "There is coming a season where there will be a breakthrough of blessing that will bring us into victory to lift us up to the heavenlies where we will have a new vision of good things and we progress down the road to fulfilment." What I just said was total double talk, and is an example of the content of most of the prophecies I am seeing on line.

Also, none of the hundreds of NAR predictive prophecies since the 1970s have come true. Not one. They are false prophets, and false prophets are not Christian no matter how they walk the walk and talk the talk.

 

[ARBITER01]

It looks Scripturally correct to me. From how I was trained in the gifts of the Spirit, that is how they should be used.

You're correct, and that happens on a regular basis at my Assemblies of GOD church.

Lately there have been less messages, but they all follow that same exact pattern when one is given, which just happens to follow the scriptural pattern that Paul gave us in Corinthians.

There are churches out there doing it correctly. I think people have been paying way too much attention to Youtube where cessationalists beat up other Christians for sport, and try to make themselves look good in the process.

Human nature is human nature.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I like what Paul said, "But in the church I would rather speak five intelligible words to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue."

In other words, five intelligible words in a sermon from a called pastor is better than babbling a whole night of garble and gibberish.

Nope this is not slander.

"Babbling a whole night of garble and gibberish" is the true definition of what passes for tongues in the NAR and word faith signs and wonders movement. This is because they are ignoring Paul's clear teaching about how, when and where tongues should be spoken. I don't believe that tongues and prophecy ceased at the end of the Apostolic Age. There is no Scriptural support for that.

So there is a true gift of tongues which is used in the privacy of the person's prayer closet. 1 Corinthians 14:2, clearly says that when a person speaks in an unknown tongue he speaks to God...speaks mysteries in the Spirit. I take the attitude that 1 Corinthians 14:2 is true and those who say it is not applicable to believers are lying. I support that through the Scripture: "Let God be true and all others are liars". What this means that anyone who denies the Word of God is a liar.

When a person is praying in tongues to God in the privacy of their prayer room, then God is the only listener, and if He believes the person is talking gibberish, then He would be faithful to make it clear to the person. I don't know how others get on because I am not a fly on the wall in their private prayer rooms, but I have been praying privately in tongues for over 50 years, and although the Lord has spoken to me on many occasions through His Word and directly, He has never said that I have ever spoken gibberish. When I have asked Him directly, He has directed me back to 1 Corinthians 14 and said, "I wrote a whole chapter on tongues and how to use them properly, and so you choose either to believe My Word or not." My answer to Him was, "I choose to believe Your Word, and I decide to base my praying in tongues on 1 Corinthians 14:1" People can say what they like about speaking in tongues and call it gibberish until the cows come home, but when I go into my private prayer room with God, I am well out of range of any criticism concerning how I decide to pray to God.

But the NAR and signs and wonders movement are heretical movements that are not true to God's Word. They are making up new revelations that have nothing to do with God's plan of salvation involving Jesus dying on the Cross and being resurrected. They are not Christian and therefore are not exercising the genuine gifts of the Spirit. They do not exercise appropriate control on their use of tongues, and their prophecies are either double talk nonsense or don't come to pass. These are the ones who are bringing the true Pentecostal movement into disrepute. Jesus warned that false prophets will go out into the world and will deceive many and that false teachers will deceive many through false signs and wonders. We are seeing the fulfilment of Jesus' prophecy, given 2000 years ago, starting to happen with this heretical NAR and the false signs and wonders movement.

 

[Guojing]

I like what Paul said, "But in the church I would rather speak five intelligible words to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue."

In other words, five intelligible words in a sermon from a called pastor is better than babbling a whole night of garble and gibberish.

Nope this is not slander.

Nowadays, the term "slander" is used very loosely.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

You're correct, and that happens on a regular basis at my Assemblies of GOD church.

Lately there have been less messages, but they all follow that same exact pattern when one is given, which just happens to follow the scriptural pattern that Paul gave us in Corinthians.

There are churches out there doing it correctly. I think people have been paying way too much attention to Youtube where cessationalists beat up other Christians for sport, and try to make themselves look good in the process.

Human nature is human nature.

The problem is that the NAR and the false signs and wonders movement is just giving ammunition to the cessationist cause. This is why genuine continuationists need to speak out and say that these heretical movements do not reflect the true Holy Spirit and HIs gifts as operated in normal Pentecostal churches lie the AOG. (Although some American AOGs have gone over to the NAR and therefore are operating outside of the 1949 AOG charter which did not accept the excesses of the NAR and signs and wonders movement.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

It is interesting to note that Chris Rosebrough was involved in the Latter Rain movement. This movement was condemned by the 1949 AOG charter as heresy. This could make it appear that his view of Pentecostalism was skewed by a non-Christian heretical movement that was using Pentecostal terminology. It is interesting that after viewing many of the videos on his channel, all of them have been reviewing the false prophets and teachers of the NAR and the word faith signs and wonders movement. Not once has he reviewed teaching from the AOG, Church of God, or Elim churches, mainly because there is nothing in their teaching that is not sound doctrine, and doesn't exhibit the extreme behaviour in the meetings of the false teachers and prophets. Also, Christ and Steve Kozar, compare the false teaching and prophecy to actual Scripture passages, so, in my view that sets them apart from others who are intent on pushing their cessationism.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

I am a continuationist according to the gifts of the Holy Spirit because there is nothing in the New Testament that the decline and cease of the spiritual gifts were the result of some decree of God. If God meant for the gifts to be temporary, He would have clearly said so.

Isn't that kind of reasoning self-defeating because it says on the one hand that God continues to speak and on the other hand that everything of importance needs to be recorded in the scriptures that you accept. So, if God did say "the gifts were for a specific purpose and a specific period and no more" but didn't say it in the bible that you accept then you'd reject the message as extra-biblical. It's no good to try to run with the foxes (be a continuationist) and hunt with the hounds (be a strict sola scripturist).

 

[ARBITER01]

The problem is that the NAR and the false signs and wonders movement is just giving ammunition to the cessationist cause. This is why genuine continuationists need to speak out and say that these heretical movements do not reflect the true Holy Spirit and HIs gifts as operated in normal Pentecostal churches lie the AOG. (Although some American AOGs have gone over to the NAR and therefore are operating outside of the 1949 AOG charter which did not accept the excesses of the NAR and signs and wonders movement.

No that's your problem, and it seems to be your problem almost every day and night on here lately.

 

[Guojing]

Isn't that kind of reasoning self-defeating because it says on the one hand that God continues to speak and on the other hand that everything of importance needs to be recorded in the scriptures that you accept. So, if God did say "the gifts were for a specific purpose and a specific period and no more" but didn't say it in the bible that you accept then you'd reject the message as extra-biblical. It's no good to try to run with the foxes (be a continuationist) and hunt with the hounds (be a strict sola scripturist).

That is called "having your cake and eating it too".

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Isn't that kind of reasoning self-defeating because it says on the one hand that God continues to speak and on the other hand that everything of importance needs to be recorded in the scriptures that you accept. So, if God did say "the gifts were for a specific purpose and a specific period and no more" but didn't say it in the bible that you accept then you'd reject the message as extra-biblical. It's no good to try to run with the foxes (be a continuationist) and hunt with the hounds (be a strict sola scripturist).

We are warned by the Apostle John not to believe every spirit and to test every spirit whether it comes from God because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

So if someone says that God spoke to them and said the gifts had ceased, how would we know it was God who spoke? What test do we apply to determine whether it was really God or not. There are people running all over the place saying God is speaking to them, and some of these are saying crazy things. The only solid basis for testing are the Scriptures, because it was the Holy Spirit who inspired the Scriptures. 2 Peter 1:21 says that holy men spoke from God as they were moved by the Holy Spirit. He was referring to the Old Testament Scriptures which he showed was the record of what holy men heard from God and spoke out. When Paul went to Berea to preach the Gospel, the Bereans didn't just take his word for it. They searched the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so. When Jesus encouraged the two disciples at Emmaeus about His death and resurrection, He took them through all the Old Testament Scriptures to show how the Old Testament was all about Him. If we want to know who the real Jesus of the Bible is, the Old Testament sets Him out clearly if we have the time and effort to search the Scriptures. Abraham told the rich man in hell that if his brothers didn't believe Moses and the Prophets, not even someone rising from the dead wouldn't convince them.

So, an NAR pastor told his people that the Holy Spirit told him that it wasn't enough for him to be like Jesus, but he was going progress on to be Jesus. Did the Holy Spirit tell him that? How do we know?

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

No that's your problem, and it seems to be your problem almost every day and night on here lately.

So it looks like you are telling me that you fully support the NAR false prophecy and teaching, and the false signs and wonders that are not happening, and the crazy behaviour and vain pagan repetitive mantra that happened in Todd Bentley's commissioning meeting? And do you also support Todd White's fraudulent leg lengthening trick? What standard do you use to distinguish between the work of the Holy Spirit and that of a New Age spirit when both assert that they are Charismatic?

What say someone got up in your church and prophesied that we can be more than just like Jesus, but can become Jesus, and that there is no Trinity, but only Jesus in different manifestations, and that the church is entering into a season where they will see many signs and wonders, more than in the whole history of the church? Would you judge that prophecy to be of the Holy Spirit, or not?

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

We are warned by the Apostle John not to believe every spirit and to test every spirit whether it comes from God because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

So if someone says that God spoke to them and said the gifts had ceased, how would we know it was God who spoke? What test do we apply to determine whether it was really God or not. There are people running all over the place saying God is speaking to them, and some of these are saying crazy things. The only solid basis for testing are the Scriptures, because it was the Holy Spirit who inspired the Scriptures. 2 Peter 1:21 says that holy men spoke from God as they were moved by the Holy Spirit. He was referring to the Old Testament Scriptures which he showed was the record of what holy men heard from God and spoke out. When Paul went to Berea to preach the Gospel, the Bereans didn't just take his word for it. They searched the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so. When Jesus encouraged the two disciples at Emmaeus about His death and resurrection, He took them through all the Old Testament Scriptures to show how the Old Testament was all about Him. If we want to know who the real Jesus of the Bible is, the Old Testament sets Him out clearly if we have the time and effort to search the Scriptures. Abraham told the rich man in hell that if his brothers didn't believe Moses and the Prophets, not even someone rising from the dead wouldn't convince them.

So, an NAR pastor told his people that the Holy Spirit told him that it wasn't enough for him to be like Jesus, but he was going progress on to be Jesus. Did the Holy Spirit tell him that? How do we know?

One can have a test that amounts to "the bible alone determines doctrine and practise", or you can have a doctrine that says that no binding revelation from God is given to anyone any longer, which amounts to no continuation of genuinely revelatory gifts today. So, no matter how you cut it the kind of "gifts" that people claim to have today are not authoritative, they are no better and no worse than anything spoken by a cessationist warning against receiving fake gifts.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

That is called "having your cake and eating it too".

The problem is that people are getting up and saying all sorts of weird and wonderful things, saying that the Holy Spirit spoke to them, but there is no reliable way of testing whether what is being said is really of God or not.

It seems in the NAR and the word faith signs and wonders movement, anyone can say what they like and attribute it to the Holy Spirit, and it is generally believed to be of God. This is because no one is able to know how to test what is being said, opening the way for all sorts of weird and wonderful doctrines and teaching to be promulgated which those with itchy ears are very happy to accept.

 

[ARBITER01]

So it looks like you are telling me that you fully support the NAR false prophecy and teaching, and the false signs and wonders that are not happening, and the crazy behaviour and vain pagan repetitive mantra that happened in Todd Bentley's commissioning meeting?

Did I say that?

What I said was that you have a constant problem on this issue everyday. You sound like a broken record in each post.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

One can have a test that amounts to "the bible alone determines doctrine and practise", or you can have a doctrine that says that no binding revelation from God is given to anyone any longer, which amounts to no continuation of genuinely revelatory gifts today. So, no matter how you cut it the kind of "gifts" that people claim to have today are not authoritative, they are no better and no worse than anything spoken by a cessationist warning against receiving fake gifts.

Just for interest sake: When someone gets up and says "The Holy Spirit spoke to me..." and said a whole of of things that either seemed too good to be true, or depressingly negative, how would you judge whether that word came from God or not? (I'm not trying to bait you. I really do want to know.)

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Did I say that?

What I said was that you have a constant problem on this issue everyday. You sound like a broken record in each post.

I have been asking how good people on this thread are able to test the spirits whether they are of God - what is the standard by which they judge when someone says stuff they say is from the Holy Spirit. Do we accept everything that is claimed to be of the Holy Spirit, or can the difference between truth and error be identified.

Seeing that you keep turning it back to me, you seem to be reluctant to commit yourself in this. I am quite sure that if someone in your church got up and gave a prophecy that you know in your spirit that it is definitely not of God, which I believe that you have more than once. What I am interested in knowing is what is your "litmus" for testing the spirit?

Also, when you yourself have got up and given a prophetic word in your church, which I believe you have on a number of occasions, how do you know for sure that it is the Holy Spirit who is inspiring you? You do agree that we need to know for sure it is the Holy Spirit if we are going to give a prophecy that purports to come through the inspiration of the Spirit.

 

[ARBITER01]

I have been asking how good people on this thread are able to test the spirits whether they are of God - what is the standard by which they judge when someone says stuff they say is from the Holy Spirit. Do we accept everything that is claimed to be of the Holy Spirit, or can the difference between truth and error be identified.

Seeing that you keep turning it back to me, you seem to be reluctant to commit yourself in this. I am quite sure that if someone in your church got up and gave a prophecy that you know in your spirit that it is definitely not of God, which I believe that you have more than once. What I am interested in knowing is what is your "litmus" for testing the spirit?

Also, when you yourself have got up and given a prophetic word in your church, which I believe you have on a number of occasions, how do you know for sure that it is the Holy Spirit who is inspiring you? You do agree that we need to know for sure it is the Holy Spirit if we are going to give a prophecy that purports to come through the inspiration of the Spirit.

I don't have a ministry with my tongues gift, nor do I have a ministry with my gift of prophesying. So no, I don't give messages by The Holy Spirit in the assembly, other people in the congregation do when they are prompted by The Holy Spirit.

The standard for corporate speaking is always Edification, Exhortation, and Comfort.

The message will strengthen you inside throughout the message when it is The Holy Spirit speaking, and the message will be encouraging and comforting. The icing on the cake is the peace of The Holy Spirit tends to settle upon you either during it or after it, or even both.

If none of those things happen (which you will notice rather quickly) then it is not The Holy Spirit speaking. More likely it is just that person.