Why Historians Date the Revelation to the Reign of Domitian

[Interplanner]

what are some documentation of those leaders things Rev?

 

[Rev20]

what are some documentation of those leaders things Rev?

I will be happy to provide it, but what are you referring to? Which post?
.

 

[Interplanner]

The misconduct of the D'ist founders? Was the person a reformed felon or actively charged one?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by Bible2

Revelation is almost entirely literal, for it is unsealed (Revelation 22:10), meaning that it shouldn't be difficult for saved people of any time to understand it if they simply read it as it is written: chronologically and almost-entirely literally.
​

If I understand you correctly, you are claiming that those who do not interpret the book of the Revelation the way you do are not Christians, which would include most people on this forum, myself included.

That sounds like something arrogant lunatics like John Nelson Darby or Cyrus I. Scofield might write. After all, like Scofield and Darby, you are implying that brilliant theologians throughout history were not saved because they declared the Revelation to be both difficult, and in many areas impossible, to understand.

The raging lunatic, John Nelson Darby, ran people out of his church, labeling them heretics, if they did not believe all the crazy stuff he invented.
One can only imagine the peril those "heretics" might have faced if Darby had held the power of the State. Scofield, the convicted felon and consummate con-man, not to mention being a family/child deserter, was equally arrogant and dangerous (and still is).

I recommend you climb down off your pedestal before you fall.
.

They should be lucky they didn't live in the dark ages under the inquistion of the RCC......


.

 

[Rev20]

The misconduct of the D'ist founders? Was the person a reformed felon or actively charged one?

I somehow missed this reply. Sorry.

Cyrus Ingerson Scofield was a career con-man. My recommend is to read about him from those who have extensively researched him. You can download the book in parts, from here:

Free Online Books@ PreteristArchive.com

Ctrl-F to search for Canfield on the page, then click on this link,

The Incredible Scofield and His Book

There is another link at Canfields name that is good read, titled:

Neither Land Nor City Are Holy

 

[OneAccordRM]

Cyrus Ingerson Scofield was a career con-man.

While you will no doubt construe this as me defending scofield, its more about defending a principle of Christianity.

Scofield was a sinner.


Tell me, have you never sinned?

 

[Rev20]

While you will no doubt construe this as me defending scofield, its more about defending a principle of Christianity.

Scofield was a sinner.

Tell me, have you never sinned?

I'm a sinner. I haven't led millions of people astray for a buck, but I am a sinner.

How about you? Are you a sinner?


.

 

[OneAccordRM]

I'm a sinner. I haven't led millions of people astray for a buck, but I am a sinner.

How about you? Are you a sinner?

I am a sinner indeed, If I was not a sinner, I wouldnt be desperate for the atoning blood of Jesus Christ.

Can you prove Scofield "led people astray" to make a buck, or is that subjective belief of yours?

I see you leading people astray for free, that to me spells agenda.

 

[Interplanner]

2P2P has no basis in the NT. It is "astray."

 

[Rev20]

I am a sinner indeed, If I was not a sinner, I wouldnt be desperate for the atoning blood of Jesus Christ.

Can you prove Scofield "led people astray" to make a buck, or is that subjective belief of yours?

No. I can't prove Hal Lindsey or Grant Jeffrey were out to make a buck with their false prophecies and teachings; but I do know they never offered their books to the public domain.

The same for Scofield. He conned people out of their money right and left (including his own mother-in-law out of her life savings). And after serving prison time for fraud, losing his ability to practice law, and "getting religion", he became a member of an exclusive men's club, for life, which was dominated by Christian-hating communists like Samuel Untermyer. It is also recorded that he didn't leave his children by his first wife (whom he had abandoned early on) a single dime in his will.

But, no, I can't prove he was in it for the money.

I see you leading people astray for free, that to me spells agenda.

And you are just another in a long line of dispensationalists with nasty attitudes, but with little knowledge of the scripture or history.


.

 

[Rev20]

2P2P has no basis in the NT. It is "astray."

That is all they can see, Interplanner; because it is all they have been taught. The scripture is simply a tool they use to "prove" 2P2P.


.

 

[OneAccordRM]

That is all they can see, Interplanner; because it is all they have been taught. The scripture is simply a tool they use to "prove" 2P2P.


.

How do you deal with these verses.

This is what the scriptures say.

Rom 11:25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery--so that you will not be wise in your own estimation--that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;

When did the "fulness of the Gentiles come in" because we know the Gospel didnt go to the Gentiles until after Christ ascended.


Also, how do you deal with this verse?

Rom 11:28 From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God's choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers;

Why are the Jews beloved if they are enemies of the Gospel?


Im prepared to answer this with scripture in case you cant.

 

[Rev20]

How do you deal with these verses.

This is what the scriptures say.

Rom 11:25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery--so that you will not be wise in your own estimation--that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;

When did the "fulness of the Gentiles come in" because we know the Gospel didnt go to the Gentiles until after Christ ascended.

First, that verse, Romans 11:25, is not to be understood as a dispensational sound-bite or talking point, as you presented it; but rather is only one verse in a three-chapter treatise (chapters 9-11) on the future of Israel, presented by the former Pharisee, the Apostle Paul.

I explained most of the verses in that treatise to you earlier when you asked another "gotcha" question, found here:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7522417-99/#post66055883

The verse you quoted above, Romans 11:25, was fulfilled when the Jewish priesthood and ceremonial structure, including Jerusalem and the Temple, were destroyed, as well as all their enforcers. Until that time the early Christians from Israel--from the natural seed of Abraham--were at a disadvantage since they were constantly being "tugged" back toward Judaism by their families and culture. Some apostasized.

Remember, the natural seed of Abraham were not Israel unless they also believed in Christ: unless they had the faith of Abraham. Paul went to great lengths to explain this, beginning in chapter 9:1-8, where he mourns the curse against most of his people, and then explains that the words "all Israel" does not mean all the natural seed of Abraham; but only the faithful remnant--the elect--and maybe a few others who call on the name of the Lord.

Therefore, by the time we reach chapter 11, Paul is referring essentially to the small remnant when he uses the word Israel. Romans 11:25 can be read, "blindness in part has happened to the remnant, but all will be saved":

"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day." -- Jn 6:44​

Jesus made that statement while he and his disciples were in the "last days":

"God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;" -- Heb 1:1-2​

The remnant were raised during the first resurrection of AD70.
.

Also, how do you deal with this verse?

Rom 11:28 From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God's choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers;

Why are the Jews beloved if they are enemies of the Gospel?

Im prepared to answer this with scripture in case you cant.

The Jews were/are not the beloved: only those faithful to Christ, which in those days was only a small remnant, who were also called the elect:

"But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace." -- Rom 11:4-5​

"As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes." -- Rom 11:28​

"Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth. And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha." -- Rom 9:27-29​

That seed was Christ. The remnant were the elect who Christ predestined from the foundation of the world. Paul was one of them:

"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will," -- Eph 1:4-5​

"These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God." -- Rev 14:4-5​

By the way, this gotcha question, Romans 11:28, is the same gotcha question you ask in an earlier thread. I posted my complete response in the link provided above.


.

 

[OneAccordRM]

First, that verse, Romans 11:25, is not to be understood as a dispensational sound-bite or talking point, as you presented it; but rather is only one verse in a three-chapter treatise (chapters 9-11) on the future of Israel, presented by the former Pharisee, the Apostle Paul.

Im not a dispensationalist.

Im glad however that you acknowledge the future of Israel however after Christ has ascended.

The verse you quoted above, Romans 11:25, was fulfilled when the Jewish priesthood and ceremonial structure, including Jerusalem and the Temple, were destroyed, as well as all their enforcers. Until that time the early Christians from Israel--from the natural seed of Abraham--were at a disadvantage since they were constantly being "tugged" back toward Judaism by their families and culture. Some apostasized.

Can you show me that with scripture, otherwise its difficult to take your subjective claim serious, thx.

Remember, the natural seed of Abraham were not Israel unless they also believed in Christ: unless they had the faith of Abraham. Paul went to great lengths to explain this, beginning in chapter 9:1-8, where he mourns the curse against most of his people, and then explains that the words "all Israel" does not mean all the natural seed of Abraham; but only the faithful remnant--the elect--and maybe a few others who call on the name of the Lord.

That is incorrect.

Jesus tells us the Jews are Abrahams seed.

Is it not written?

Joh_8:37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.

Only a Jew with a circumcised heart can be a Jew, fortunately, the Jews are commanded to have circumcised hearts, even before Christ.

Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

And the Jews are called to circumcise their hearts, as it is written.

Deu_10:16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

So yes, a Jew who rejects Christ is still the seed of Abraham, and a Jew who has a circumcised heart is still the seed of Abraham and is in fact a Jew.

Therefore, by the time we reach chapter 11, Paul is referring essentially to the small remnant when he uses the word Israel. Romans 11:25 can be read, "blindness in part has happened to the remnant, but all will be saved":

Is he?

Rom 1:13 I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that often I have planned to come to you (and have been prevented so far) so that I may obtain some fruit among you also, even as among the rest of the Gentiles.

Rom 11:7 What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened;

The remnant were raised during the first resurrection of AD70.

Can you show me this in scripture?

The Jews were/are not the beloved: only those faithful to Christ, which in those days was only a small remnant, who were also called the elect:

Rom 11:28 say they are the enemy of the Gospel, but are still beloved.

Rom 11:28 From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God's choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers;

Here is something a little easier for you to grasp

NLT
Rom 11:28 Many of the people of Israel are now enemies of the Good News, and this benefits you Gentiles. Yet they are still the people He loves because He chose their ancestors Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.



Its starting to become difficult to take you serious.

Its like you throw scripture at a wall and hope it sticks.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by Rev20

I'm a sinner. I haven't led millions of people astray for a buck, but I am a sinner.

How about you? Are you a sinner?
​

I am a sinner indeed, If I was not a sinner, I wouldnt be desperate for the atoning blood of Jesus Christ.

Can you prove Scofield "led people astray" to make a buck, or is that subjective belief of yours?

I see you leading people astray for free, that to me spells agenda.

Originally Posted by Interplanner

2P2P has no basis in the NT. It is "astray."
​

That is all they can see, Interplanner; because it is all they have been taught. The scripture is simply a tool they use to "prove" 2P2P.


.

Sorry I am having a senior moment, but what is "2P2P"?


.

 

[OneAccordRM]

Sorry I am having a senior moment, but what is "2P2P"?

Im actually not entirely sure, but I think its an acronym for Dispys?

Phone a friend?

 

[A New World]

How do you deal with these verses.

This is what the scriptures say.

Rom 11:25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery--so that you will not be wise in your own estimation--that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;

When did the "fulness of the Gentiles come in" because we know the Gospel didnt go to the Gentiles until after Christ ascended.

Paul was writing during the last days of the Old Covenant age. To establish the context of this verse we look back a few verses to Rom. 11:1-6 where he explained the salvation of the remnant during this terminal generation.

During this time the gospel was going out to the Gentiles in fulfillment of prophecy.

Paul earlier indicated the fulfillment of Hosea concerning the Gentiles:

As He says also in Hosea, "I WILL CALL THOSE WHO WERE NOT MY PEOPLE, 'MY PEOPLE,' AND HER WHO WAS NOT BELOVED, 'BELOVED.'" "AND IT SHALL BE THAT IN THE PLACE WHERE IT WAS SAID TO THEM, 'YOU ARE NOT MY PEOPLE,' THERE THEY SHALL BE CALLED SONS OF THE LIVING GOD." (Romans‬ 9‬:25-276 NASB)

The word "fullness" in Rom. 11:25 is the idea of "fulfillment." That generation witnessed the fulfillment of the prophecies concerning the calling of the Gentiles.

Also, how do you deal with this verse?

Rom 11:28 From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God's choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers;

Why are the Jews beloved if they are enemies of the Gospel?

Again, we must remember when Paul was writing. It was just prior to the end of the Jewish age. From his perspective natural Israel was the "beloved" until the end. While making her jealous God was in the process of calling the remnant and the Gentiles together into one body.

Again, if we go back to Romans 9 he quoted Isaiah: "Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, "THOUGH THE NUMBER OF THE SONS OF ISRAEL BE LIKE THE SAND OF THE SEA, IT IS THE REMNANT THAT WILL BE SAVED; FOR THE LORD WILL EXECUTE HIS WORD ON THE EARTH, THOROUGHLY AND QUICKLY." (Romans‬ 9‬:27-28‬ NASB)

God was saving the remnant of Israel and the Gentiles in the last days. By the time the age ended in AD 70 "all Israel" (true Israel) would be saved from His wrath.

 

[OneAccordRM]

Paul was writing during the last days of the Old Covenant age. To establish the context of this verse we look back a few verses to Rom. 11:1-6 where he explained the salvation of the remnant during this terminal generation.

Can you show me at what point the old covenant became of no effect?

The word "fullness" in Rom. 11:25 is the idea of "fulfillment." That generation witnessed the fulfillment of the prophecies concerning the calling of the Gentiles.

In your opinion, do you think the fulness of the Gentiles has to do with the times of the Gentiles?

Luk 21:24 and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Joh 10:16 "I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd.

God was saving the remnant of Israel and the Gentiles in the last days. By the time the age ended in AD 70 "all Israel" (true Israel) would be saved from His wrath.

Can you show me where the age ended in 70ad in scripture?

 

[Rev20]

Im not a dispensationalist.

Im glad however that you acknowledge the future of Israel however after Christ has ascended.

There is a general concensus among historians that apostate Israel lasted about 40 years after Christ ascended. I thought you knew that.
.

Can you show me that with scripture, otherwise its difficult to take your subjective claim serious, thx.

I don't believe you take seriously anything I write. I only respond to you for the benefit of others; but even I can only take so much of your nasty attitude.

This is the verse you previously asked about:

"For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in." -- Rom 11:25​

This is the part of my reply you asked about:

"The verse you quoted above, Romans 11:25, was fulfilled when the Jewish priesthood and ceremonial structure, including Jerusalem and the Temple, were destroyed, as well as all their enforcers. Until that time the early Christians from Israel--from the natural seed of Abraham--were at a disadvantage since they were constantly being "tugged" back toward Judaism by their families and culture. Some apostasized."​

This is the primary passage on the fulness of the Gentiles:

"And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. . . Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled." -- Lk 21:20-24, 32​

The general stuff, like the ceremonies, the enforcers (e.g., Saul before Paul), etc., are covered in the book of the Acts. The rest I explained in detail in the last two replies to you:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7522417-99/#post66055883

http://www.christianforums.com/t7791343-54/#post66076420

Get back with me when you know them and the book of Acts inside-out. You will be required to take a quiz to ensure you understand the material.
.

Jesus tells us the Jews are Abrahams seed.

Is it not written?

Joh_8:37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.

Only a Jew with a circumcised heart can be a Jew, fortunately, the Jews are commanded to have circumcised hearts, even before Christ.

Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

And the Jews are called to circumcise their hearts, as it is written.

Deu_10:16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

So yes, a Jew who rejects Christ is still the seed of Abraham, and a Jew who has a circumcised heart is still the seed of Abraham and is in fact a Jew.

You seem to always take scripture out of context: even the obvious verses that you should know you cannot get away with:

"I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you. I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father. They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham." -- Jn 8:37-39​

Jesus said they are Abraham's seed; but Abraham was not their father and they were not his children. Jesus essentially placed them into the same group as Ishmael and Esau, and their children. In other words, they were not the children of Jacob, that is, not the children of Israel.

Since they were not the children of Abraham, whose children were they? Satan's!

"But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham. Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God. Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me." -- Jn 8:40-42​

"Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not." -- Jn 8:43-45​

Therefore, a Jew who rejects Christ is the child of Satan, and is not a Jew. He is a physical seed of Abraham, but only in the sense that Ishmael and Esau were. That is why John the Baptist mocked their claims about being the seed of Abraham:

"Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham." -- Lk 3:8​

Jesus talked about nasty attitude of the children of Satan in the Revelation:

"I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan." -- Rev 2:9​

"Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee." -- Rev 3:9​

.

Rom 1:13 I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that often I have planned to come to you (and have been prevented so far) so that I may obtain some fruit among you also, even as among the rest of the Gentiles.

Rom 11:7 What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened;

So, how do those verses contradict what I wrote? I know you will avoid my question, but I wanted it on record that I asked.
.

Can you show me this in scripture?

I have already. You either were not paying attention, or you don't know the scripture well enough to understand.
.

Rom 11:28 say they are the enemy of the Gospel, but are still beloved.

Rom 11:28 From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God's choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers;

So, how do those verses contradict what I wrote? You don't know, do you?
.

Here is something a little easier for you to grasp

NLT
Rom 11:28 Many of the people of Israel are now enemies of the Good News, and this benefits you Gentiles. Yet they are still the people He loves because He chose their ancestors Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

No thanks. I'll stick with the more traditional translations.
.

Its starting to become difficult to take you serious.

Starting? Now that is funny. You take no one serious, except yourself. I have no illusions of being treated differently from others.
.

Its like you throw scripture at a wall and hope it sticks.

With you, it is like throwing it out the window.


.

 

[OneAccordRM]

There is a general concensus among historians that apostate Israel lasted about 40 years after Christ ascended. I thought you knew that.
.
I don't believe you take seriously anything I write. I only respond to you for the benefit of others; but even I can only take so much of your nasty attitude.

This is the verse you previously asked about:

"For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in." -- Rom 11:25​

This is the part of my reply you asked about:

"The verse you quoted above, Romans 11:25, was fulfilled when the Jewish priesthood and ceremonial structure, including Jerusalem and the Temple, were destroyed, as well as all their enforcers. Until that time the early Christians from Israel--from the natural seed of Abraham--were at a disadvantage since they were constantly being "tugged" back toward Judaism by their families and culture. Some apostasized."​

This is the primary passage on the fulness of the Gentiles:

"And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. . . Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled." -- Lk 21:20-24, 32​

The general stuff, like the ceremonies, the enforcers (e.g., Saul before Paul), etc., are covered in the book of the Acts. The rest I explained in detail in the last two replies to you:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7522417-99/#post66055883

http://www.christianforums.com/t7791343-54/#post66076420

Get back with me when you know them and the book of Acts inside-out. You will be required to take a quiz to ensure you understand the material.
.



You seem to always take scripture out of context: even the obvious verses that you should know you cannot get away with:

"I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you. I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father. They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham." -- Jn 8:37-39​

Jesus said they are Abraham's seed; but Abraham was not their father and they were not his children. Jesus essentially placed them into the same group as Ishmael and Esau, and their children. In other words, they were not the children of Jacob, that is, not the children of Israel.

Since they were not the children of Abraham, whose children were they? Satan's!

"But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham. Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God. Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me." -- Jn 8:40-42​

"Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not." -- Jn 8:43-45​

Therefore, a Jew who rejects Christ is the child of Satan, and is not a Jew. He is a physical seed of Abraham, but only in the sense that Ishmael and Esau were. That is why John the Baptist mocked their claims about being the seed of Abraham:

"Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham." -- Lk 3:8​

Jesus talked about nasty attitude of the children of Satan in the Revelation:

"I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan." -- Rev 2:9​

"Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee." -- Rev 3:9​

.



So, how do those verses contradict what I wrote? I know you will avoid my question, but I wanted it on record that I asked.
.



I have already. You either were not paying attention, or you don't know the scripture well enough to understand.
.



So, how do those verses contradict what I wrote? You don't know, do you?
.



No thanks. I'll stick with the more traditional translations.
.



Starting? Now that is funny. You take no one serious, except yourself. I have no illusions of being treated differently from others.
.



With you, it is like throwing it out the window.


.

Can you give me the phone number to the clown school of eschatological studies (CSES) you got your degree at?

I want to file a complaint with your instructor, I think he passed you in error, because Jehovahs witness debate better than you do.


Buncha subjective hocus pocus.


Ill just wait for you to post, then make threads will all your fallacious interpretations.

Much easier than replying to an antisemite