Why Historians Date the Revelation to the Reign of Domitian

[Rev20]

If scholars are divided about the date of revelation I'm pretty sure us lesser mortals here will not produce the definitive view that will settle the matter.

As interesting as the matter is, I am more concerned about actually understanding the books' message as it applies to us (and me) today.

John
NZ

John, one other major point. Futurists insist that the book of the Revelation, with all its mystic symbols and imagery, should be taken literally. I am unsure exactly how that is accomplished, but it does help explain why there have been so many different "antichrists" over the centuries. There is a billion-dollar Christian book industry based on false prophecies of the Revelation. LOL!

This is one example of a "literal" translation by a futurist:

"And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters; And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter." -- Rev 8:10-11​

Literalists translate that, well, "literally". That is, a real star falls out of the heaven and pollutes a third part of the rivers and fountains of water, and makes them deadly. But in the Revelation, early on, Jesus says that stars are angels:

"The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches." -- Rev 1:20​

Stars are also represented this way

"And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit." -- Rev 9:1​

"I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star." -- Rev 22:16​

So, we see that stars are represented as human or angelic figures; and as the Lord himself in 22:16. Also in the Revelation, the word "waters" is defined this way:

"And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the harlot sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues." -- Rev 17:15​

But "rivers and fountains of waters", as mentioned in Rev 8:10-11 above, is symbolic of the Word of God and the Holy Spirit:

"O Lord, the hope of Israel, all that forsake thee shall be ashamed, and they that depart from me shall be written in the earth, because they have forsaken the Lord, the fountain of living waters." -- Jer 17:13​

"For my people have committed two evils; they have forsaken me the fountain of living waters, and hewed them out cisterns, broken cisterns, that can hold no water." -- Jer 2:13​

"And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be." -- Zec 14:8​

"In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)" -- Jn 7:37-39​

"For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes." -- Rev 7:17​

Therefore, this aforementioned passage:

"And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters; And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter." -- Rev 8:10-11​

. . . more than likely means that a bright angel, like Satan, fell from heaven and "poisoned" (corrupted) the holy spirit that was being spread by the early church. It is similar to this verse about a fallen angel (or fallen star):

"And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time . . . And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ" -- Rev 12:9-12, 17​

There was a significant apostasy in the early church before the destruction of Jerusalem. Some of the epistles to the seven churches mentions it, as do other epistles. What caused the apostasy? Most likely Satan and his angels spreading lies to the early Christians (nearly all Jews) that they had to be physically circumcised and/or follow other works of the laws in the Torah to be saved.
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[Interplanner]

One of the strengths of the last paragraphs above is that accuser aspect. It is as much in Rom 8 and Col 2 as in the Rev. In Col 2, a neo-Judaizing group said that Christians were disqualified if they did not add things from the law; second-rate. Actually the term is dis-imputed, taking away the thing Paul kept saying was imputed: the righteousness of Christ.

 

[Bible2]

Rev20 said in post 479:

"Also I spake to the priests and to all this people, saying, Thus saith the Lord; Hearken not to the words of your prophets that prophesy unto you, saying, Behold, the vessels of the Lord's house shall now shortly be brought again from Babylon: for they prophesy a lie unto you." -- Jer 27:16

So, we know that when the Lord uses the word shortly, as he also does in the Revelation, it does not mean thousands of years, as futurists claim, but less than 70 years.

Note that the "shortly" in Jeremiah 27:16 must he understood from the viewpoint of men, for it was what men were saying, not God. But the "shortly" in Revelation 1:1 is the Word of God, and so it can be understood from his viewpoint, in which a thousand years are like a day (2 Peter 3:8-9).

Rev20 said in post 479:

"Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh." -- Mt 24:42-44

During the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18, Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21, believers will have to "watch" (stay awake, spiritually) for Jesus' 2nd coming (Matthew 24:42-43, Matthew 25:13, Luke 21:36), which Jesus has just finished saying won't occur until immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6). For if a believer isn't "watching" (staying awake, spiritually) for the 2nd coming, it will take that believer by surprise (cf. the if principle of Revelation 3:3b). And that believer will lose his or her salvation at that time because of such things as unrepentant sin (Luke 12:45-46, Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27), unrepentant laziness (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8), or apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12b).

Also, even when believers know the truth that Jesus' return won't occur until immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31), they still need to live each day knowing that any of them could die at any time (Luke 12:20, James 4:14).

Rev20 said in post 479:

That is, when Jesus said "this generation" in one instance, he meant the same thing in all other instances . . .

Note that the parallel verses of Matthew 24:34, Mark 13:30, and Luke 21:32 can be the only instance where "this generation" doesn't mean the temporal one alive at Jesus' 1st coming.

Your argument is like the argument of full preterism, which claims that the "elements" in 2 Peter 3:10,12 can't be physical because all the other verses in the Bible where the original Greek word "stoicheion" (G4747) is used, refer to non-physical elements. The truth is that the "elements" in 2 Peter 3:10,12 can be the only place in the Bible where "stoicheion" is used to refer to physical elements, just as, for example, Revelation 6:6 can be (and in fact is) the only place in the Bible where the Greek word "choinix" (G5518) is used at all.

Similarly, Matthew 24:34, Mark 13:30, and Luke 21:32 can be the only instance where "this generation" is used to refer to a future generation, which would see "all these things", including Jesus' (never fulfilled) 2nd coming.

Rev20 said in post 479:

"God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;" -- Heb 1:1-2

The "last days" began in the 1st century AD with Jesus' 1st coming (Hebrews 1:2) and the Holy Spirit's pouring out at the Pentecost in Acts 2 (Acts 2:16-17). The last days can be the last 3, roughly 1,000-year "days" (2 Peter 3:8) of the 7, roughly 1,000-year "days" from the creation of Adam in roughly 4,000 BC to the future end of the present earth and the creation of the new earth (Revelation 21:1) in roughly 3,000 AD. So the last "days" can be the roughly 3,000 years from Jesus' 1st coming to sometime after the future millennium (Revelation 20:4-6), which will be part of the last, roughly 1,000-year "day" (2 Peter 3:8), which could begin at Jesus' (never fulfilled) 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8).

Rev20 said in post 479:

"As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"" -- Mt 24:3 NASB

Note that the time of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law ended not at the destruction of the temple in 70 AD, but decades earlier, at the moment that Jesus died on the Cross (Matthew 27:50-51a), and abolished the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17, Romans 7:6; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18, Hebrews 7:18-19), which was the same moment that he brought the New Covenant into effect (Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 9:15-17, Hebrews 10:19-20, Matthew 27:51a). So there was no transition period, no overlap at all (Hebrews 10:9b, Hebrews 7:12), between the time of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law and the time of the New Covenant.

Also, while the apostles asked Jesus about the end of the age (Matthew 24:3), he didn't tell them that the end of the age would occur at the destruction of the 2nd temple, or (as is sometimes claimed) before the future tribulation, or even at the end of the future tribulation, i.e. at his (post-tribulation) 2nd coming (Matthew 24:29-31), or when the end of the age would occur, just as Jesus didn't tell the apostles many other things during his ministry (John 16:12). It wouldn't be until much later that Jesus would show the apostle John, through the vision in the book of Revelation (given about 95 AD: Irenaeus, Against Heresies 5:30:3c), that the end of the age, when all the unsaved will be cast into the lake of fire (Matthew 13:40, Matthew 25:41, Revelation 20:15), won't occur until over 1,000 years after Jesus' (never fulfilled) 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:15).

Rev20 said in post 479:

"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled." -- Mt 24:34

Matthew 24:34 refers to the fulfillment of "all these things", all the events of the tribulation, and Jesus' 2nd coming and the gathering together (rapture) of the church "immediately after" the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; cf. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, Revelation 19:2 to 20:6), which events Jesus had just finished describing in Matthew 24:2-31, and which he would later show in great detail in Revelation chapters 6 to 19. Matthew 24:34 didn't mean that the tribulation, 2nd coming and rapture would be fulfilled during the temporal generation alive at the time of Jesus' 1st coming, for none of those things was fulfilled during that temporal generation.

Instead, Matthew 24:34 could mean that the temporal generation which would see the 1948 AD reestablishment of Israel, which could be symbolized by the rebudding of the fig tree (Matthew 24:32-34, Hosea 9:10, Joel 1:6-7, Luke 13:6-9, Matthew 21:19,43), won't pass, i.e. won't die off completely, until the future tribulation and 2nd coming of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 19 are fulfilled. A temporal generation may not pass until 70 or 80 years (Psalms 90:10), or 120 years (Genesis 6:3).

This doesn't require that the 2nd coming will occur right before, like one year before, that generation will pass: i.e. 69, or 79, or 119 years after 1948: in 2017, 2027, or 2067. And if the tribulation which will immediately precede the 2nd coming and rapture (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6) will last 7 years (Daniel 9:27), the tribulation's first year didn't have to be in 2011, and won't have to be in 2021 or 2061, but could be in a future year (e.g. 2020) earlier than 2021.

Matthew 24:34 could also include the meaning that the figurative, all-times generation of the elect (Matthew 24:22, Luke 16:8b, Colossians 3:12; 1 Thessalonians 1:4) won't pass away from the earth during the future tribulation of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 18, but that some of the elect will survive (Matthew 24:22) until Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53), immediately after the tribulation of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 18 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

--

The rebudding of the fig tree (Matthew 24:32) can refer to the 1948 reestablishment of Israel, just as Jesus' cursing of the fig tree (Matthew 21:19) was symbolic of his curse on unbelieving, Old Covenant Israel (Matthew 21:43). The Israel that was reestablished in 1948 is the same Old Covenant Israel that Jesus cursed at his first coming. For it still rejects Jesus and still considers itself to be under the Old Covenant. This Israel merely "putting forth leaves" again (Matthew 24:32) in 1948 was nothing more than a restoration to what the fig tree in Matthew 21:19,43 had been before it was cursed forever by Jesus and then destroyed in 70 AD: a tree with leaves, but without any fruit. And the unbelieving, Old Covenant Israel which was reestablished (by men) in 1948 may never bear fruit. For it could be destroyed before Jesus' 2nd coming, during a future war, by a Baathist army, just as it had been destroyed in 70 AD by a Roman-empire army.

But Jesus' kingdom is still called "Israel" (John 1:49, John 12:13-15, John 19:19, Luke 22:30). And at Jesus' 2nd coming, he will sit on the earthly throne of David (Luke 1:32-33, Isaiah 9:7), and restore the kingdom to Israel (Acts 1:6-7, Acts 3:20-21). Jesus is, in his humanity, the son of David (Matthew 1:1, Matthew 21:15-16, Romans 1:3), of the house of David (Luke 1:69). So at Jesus' 2nd coming, he will restore the tabernacle, the house, of David (Isaiah 16:5, Amos 9:11) to its royal glory (2 Samuel 5:12), which it had lost (2 Kings 17:21a). And Jesus will fulfill the prophecy and prayer of 2 Samuel 7:16-29. And he will bring salvation to all the still-living, unbelieving elect Jews of the house of David. For they (along with all other still-living, unbelieving elect Jews) will come into faith in him when they see him at his 2nd coming (Zechariah 12:10-14, Zechariah 13:1,6, Romans 11:26-31). And so they will all become part of the church at that time, for now there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6).

After Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:3, Zechariah 14:3-5) will occur the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Zechariah 14:8-21), during which time the Gentile nations will come to seek the returned Jesus ruling the whole earth (Zechariah 8:22, Zechariah 14:9, Psalms 72:8-11) on the restored throne of David (Isaiah 9:7) in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 2:1-4, Zechariah 14:8-11,16-19). And the physically resurrected church will reign on the earth with Jesus during the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). For the church is Israel (Romans 11:1,17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10).

 

[Bible2]

Rev20 said in post 479:

. . . Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom." -- Mt 16:27-28

Matthew 16:28, Luke 9:27, and Mark 9:1 were fulfilled at the subsequent transfiguration (Matthew 16:28 to 17:9, Luke 9:27-36, Mark 9:1-9; 2 Peter 1:16-18).

Rev20 said in post 479:

. . . Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come." -- Mt 10:5-6, 22-23

Note that nothing requires that the 12 apostles (Matthew 10:5) addressed in Matthew 10:23b preached in every town in 1st century AD Israel before they died, just as Christian preachers today still haven't preached in every town in Israel. For Christian proselytizing is outlawed in Israel today.

Rev20 said in post 479:

The proof of first century fulfillment of Matthew 24 (the Olivet Discourse) and most of the Revelation, goes on and on and on.

Note that just as the highly detailed tribulation events of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 find no historical fulfillment, so the tribulation events of Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 find no historical fulfillment. For example, Luke 21:24 refers to the same future treading down of Jerusalem by the Gentiles as Revelation 11:2b, during the Antichrist's future, literal 42-month worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18), the details of which time period are shown from 4 different angles in Revelation chapters 11 to 14 (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5,7, Revelation 14:9-13). The myriad details of these chapters have never been fulfilled. Similarly, Jesus' 2nd coming and the church's gathering together (rapture) in Matthew 24:30-31 (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) have never been fulfilled, but must occur "immediately after" the future tribulation of Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21, and Revelation chapters 6 to 18 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:2 to 20:6).

Also, the end of the 2nd temple building (also called Herod's temple building) in 70 AD didn't fulfill Matthew 24:2. For the stones of the 2nd temple's Wailing Wall (also called the Western Wall) still stand today one on top of the other, just as they did when Jesus spoke that prophecy. Matthew 24:2 included the Wailing Wall, for Matthew 24:2 wasn't referring only to the single, 2nd temple building which stood in the center of the Temple Mount and which contained the holy place and the most holy place, but was referring to "all these things", all the plural "buildings"/structures/oikodome (G3619) of the entire 2nd temple complex (Matthew 24:1). Indeed, Matthew 24:2 could even have been spoken just to the north and west of the Wailing Wall. For it was spoken just after Jesus had departed from the temple complex (Matthew 24:1), and one of the main temple complex exits (called Wilson's Arch and bridge by archaeologists) was just to the north of the Wailing Wall, and at the same level as the top of the Temple Mount (see the temple-complex map-insert in the December, 2008 issue of National Geographic magazine).

Also, in Matthew 24:2, the "here" can include not just the entire 2nd temple complex, but every structure throughout Jerusalem. For the similar statement in Luke 19:44 applied to the whole city (Luke 19:41-44). Matthew 24:2 and Luke 19:44 could be fulfilled at the very end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, right before and at Jesus' 2nd coming (Zechariah 14:2-21, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

*******

Rev20 said in post 481:

"And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters; And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter." -- Rev 8:10-11

Revelation 8:10-11 means that in our future a comet will strike the earth, possibly in the U.S. and Canadian Great Lakes region. As the comet falls from the sky, it will look like a great star, or like a burning lamp in the sky (Revelation 8:10). It will strike a region of the earth which contains 1/3 of the world's fresh surface water (Revelation 8:10b), and it will contain some poisonous element which will poison that water so that many who drink from it will die (Revelation 8:11b).

Rev20 said in post 481:

The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches." -- Rev 1:20

The "angels" of the 7 literal, 1st century AD local church congregations in 7 cities in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:20, Revelation 1:11) could have been 7 human messengers sent by those churches to John the apostle on Patmos (Revelation 1:9). For in Revelation 1:20, the original Greek word (aggelos, G0032) translated as "angels" can refer to human "messengers" (Luke 7:24).

Rev20 said in post 481:

"And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be." -- Zec 14:8

The water in Zechariah 14:8 can be both literal and at the same time symbolic of the life-giving properties of the Holy Spirit (John 7:38-39), just as, for example, the fruitless fig tree that Jesus cursed was a literal tree which at the same time symbolized fruitless, unbelieving, Old Covenant Israel (Matthew 21:19,43).

Zechariah 14:8 refers to a literal, future river which will flow during the millennium from the literal, earthly Jerusalem in 2 directions, into the Mediterranean and the Dead Sea (Zechariah 14:8-21), which are to the west and the east of Jerusalem. For in Zechariah 14:8, the original Hebrew word (chay: H2416) translated as "living" can be translated, with regard to literal, flowing water, simply as "springing" (Genesis 26:19) or "running" (Leviticus 14:5, Leviticus 14:6b, Leviticus 14:50, Leviticus 14:51b, Leviticus 14:52, Leviticus 15:13b, Numbers 19:17b).

God still has regard for the land of Israel (Deuteronomy 32:43,49b), and Jerusalem especially (Isaiah 62:6-7, Psalms 122:6). Even during the future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:5-18), Jerusalem will still be considered by God to be the holy city (Revelation 11:2, Luke 21:24), the holy mountain (Daniel 11:45, Daniel 9:16). And after the tribulation, at Jesus' 2nd coming, it will be to the Mount of Olives just east of the walled Old City of Jerusalem that Jesus will descend (Zechariah 14:4-21, Acts 1:11-12). And then Jesus will rule the whole earth from the earthly Jerusalem during the millennium (Micah 4:1-4, Zechariah 14:8-11,16-21, Revelation 20:4-6).

Also, if even those who are "strangers" in Israel can inherit the land of Israel (Ezekiel 47:21-23), then certainly believing Gentiles, who are "no more strangers" to Israel (Ephesians 2:12,19), will inherit the land of Israel during the future millennium of Revelation 20:4-6. And they will inherit the land and all the other promises given to Israel (Ephesians 2:12,19, Ephesians 3:6, Galatians 3:29, Genesis 12:7) along with all the elect Jews who have ever been saved in the past or who will get saved in our future, including at Jesus' 2nd coming (Zechariah 12:10-14, Romans 11:25-32).

 

[Biblewriter]

John, one other major point. Futurists insist that the book of the Revelation, with all its mystic symbols and imagery, should be taken literally. I am unsure exactly how that is accomplished, but it does help explain why there have been so many different "antichrists" over the centuries. There is a billion-dollar Christian book industry based on false prophecies of the Revelation. LOL!

Sadly, there are indeed some futurists that make this mistake. But It was not made by the classical dispensationalists, or by myself.

To demonstrate this, I quote from pages 239 and 240 of my award-wining book, "Keys to Bible Prophecy."

Key Principles of Prophetic Interpretation

Principle #1: The key to the Bible is the Bible.

Except in rare questions such as the meaning of ancient words or the identity of ancient places or nations, we do not gain an understanding of the Bible from external information, we gain an understanding of external information from the Bible.


Principle #2: The Bible agrees with itself.

An interpretation of any part of the Bible is not correct if it disagrees with any other part of the Bible.


Principle #3: Biblical language is precise.

Israel does not mean the church, and the church does not mean Israel. Israel does not mean Judah, and Judah does not mean Israel. The ·king does not mean the prince, and the prince does not mean the ·king.


Principle #4: Every detail in the Bible is significant.

God does not waste words. The far north is not the same as the north.


Principle #5: The Bible means what it says.

Express statements of coming events mean exactly what they say.


Principle #6: Biblical visions are symbolic.

Prophetic visions in the Bible are not pictures of coming events. They are visual symbols of these events.


Principle #7: Biblical symbolism is moral.

The subject of a Biblical vision is something that has a moral similarity to what the prophet saw.


Principle #8: Human reasoning is useless.

We know the meaning of Biblical symbols only through Biblical statements about their meanings.


Principle #9: Biblical symbolism is consistent.

If the Bible gives us the meaning of a symbol in one passage, it has the same meaning in other passages.

 

[Interplanner]

#2 and #3 are pretty badly thought out.

 

[Biblewriter]

#2 and #3 are pretty badly thought out.

They are, in actual fact, critical to ever reaching anything even resembling a true understanding of Bible prophecy, or even of much of the central message of the Bible.

 

[Interplanner]

No, you have to interp the OT by the NT. It is in all Reformation theology, BW. If Paul says the Seed was Christ, you go with that. If Paul says the Gospel was announced to ABraham, you go with that. Otherwise you will have Judaism, and it will try to purchase parts of the Christian message, one parcel at a time. If Paul says Is 59 and 27 are historic in Rom 11, you go with that.

We now have Keras saying that Is 5 is why Israel will be back in its land as though Mt 21 had nothing to do with, and never mentioned it, and had no reason to, and had no authority over it. "You will just have Judaism all over again" and it will sound like Jn 12:34.

 

[Interplanner]

The reason #3 is so bad is because you don't do well in Rom 9-11. when I saw that, I stopped reading your list because it is not worth the time.

Clear communication comes by being able to make "plays" on words, innovations at the right time, improvisations. You think you are reading an electronics manual where such cannot happen. But with Paul, who found that God never "sided" with the descendancy of Israel to start with (Abraham was Persian, Isaac was not concieved genetically, and those two dismantle descendancy, full stop), the best way to explain what is going on in the NT is to say that there is a new or other Israel. To say that to the ordinary one known as Israel, to break the Judaistic stronghold.

The NT if chock full of such communication, and it works.

If we could just remember his nemesis, so many things would fall into place about what he is saying and why.

It is patronizing to congratulate yourself for awards when the givers of such may have little credit with us. You need to earn your way.

 

[Biblewriter]

The reason #3 is so bad is because you don't do well in Rom 9-11. when I saw that, I stopped reading your list because it is not worth the time.

Clear communication comes by being able to make "plays" on words, innovations at the right time, improvisations. You think you are reading an electronics manual where such cannot happen. But with Paul, who found that God never "sided" with the descendancy of Israel to start with (Abraham was Persian, Isaac was not concieved genetically, and those two dismantle descendancy, full stop), the best way to explain what is going on in the NT is to say that there is a new or other Israel. To say that to the ordinary one known as Israel, to break the Judaistic stronghold.

The NT if chock full of such communication, and it works.

If we could just remember his nemesis, so many things would fall into place about what he is saying and why.

It is patronizing to congratulate yourself for awards when the givers of such may have little credit with us. You need to earn your way.

The part I highlighted in red is why your answers never address the real questions at hand. you are so [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]-sure of your theories about the Bible not meaning what it actually says that you will not even read reasonable answers.

 

[Interplanner]

You can't say that after a year of reading you BW. I've spent plenty of time reading your stuff. The cracks are enormous, even if you don't see them. Your inability to produce summaries of certain sections shows that you are way more complicated than the text and that the complications are to validate human reasoning. The text itself is trapped by them.

You don't sound like the NT, and you don't sound like you know it, because you have decided to make the weights equal (OT and NT). That is probably the Judaizers reason not to use the NT too.

 

[Rev20]

#2 and #3 are pretty badly thought out.

The Judaizer's idea of one part of the bible disagreeing with another is any interpretation that does not agree with their interpretation that Israel is still God's chosen people. Most Jews still refuse to accept Christ as the fulfillment of the Abrahamic promise; and they have tricked many Christians into believing their way, even though Christians have these clear passages showing fulfillment:

"Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ." -- Gal 3:16​

"For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." -- Gal 3:26-29​

It does not get any clearer than that; but Judaizers have spiritualized or discarded those and other verses in their attempts to make it appear that Israel, because of their race, is still God's chosen people. There are other verses they tend to avoid that are also glaring contradictions to their teachings; for example:

"God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;" -- Acts 17:24-26​

God has made us all the same blood in his eyes, which eliminated any possibility that "God's Chosen People" are chosen by race, as it was in the past before the appearance of our Lord Jesus Christ.
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[Interplanner]

Good quotes.

 

[Biblewriter]

You can't say that after a year of reading you BW. I've spent plenty of time reading your stuff. The cracks are enormous, even if you don't see them. Your inability to produce summaries of certain sections shows that you are way more complicated than the text and that the complications are to validate human reasoning. The text itself is trapped by them.

You don't sound like the NT, and you don't sound like you know it, because you have decided to make the weights equal (OT and NT). That is probably the Judaizers reason not to use the NT too.

I have spent far more time studying the New Testament that the Old Testament, and I have written and preached far more about the New Testament than the Old Testament. And in truth I have devoted much time and effort to opposing Judaizers.

I do not bring that up here very much because the majority of end time prophecy is in the Old Testament. But the New Testament truths are more about things like Christology, Pnuemanology, Soteriology, and Ecclesiology than avout Eschatology. And in case you didn't notice, the subject of this sub-forum is Eschatology.

 

[Interplanner]

But there are many theology categories that are antiquated. They can't handle Acts 13's sermon with its merging of Israel's promises and Christ' resurrection, so they leave the general public:
*not knowing Acts 13 actually has its own sample apostolic sermon which is more succinct than Gal 3
*not knowing that it says all the promises to Israel are fulfilled in the resurrection

 

[Interplanner]

May God protect and encourage you through your hospital journey!

 

[Rev20]

I have spent far more time studying the New Testament that the Old Testament, and I have written and preached far more about the New Testament than the Old Testament. And in truth I have devoted much time and effort to opposing Judaizers.

I do not bring that up here very much because the majority of end time prophecy is in the Old Testament. But the New Testament truths are more about things like Christology, Pnuemanology, Soteriology, and Ecclesiology than avout Eschatology. And in case you didn't notice, the subject of this sub-forum is Eschatology.

You are sadly mistaken if you believe that the majority of end time prophecy is in the old testament, and at the same time adopt the tenets of futurism. The "last days" prophesies all targeted the last days of the old covenant, which ended during the contemporary generation of Christ

This is Micah on the establishment of New Jerusalem (the Church) in the last days, with the fulfillment (note that Paul speaks in present tense):

"But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the Lord shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it." -- Mic 4:1 (similar to Isaiah 2:2)​

"But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant …" -- Heb 12:22-24​

This is Joel on the day of Pentecost in the last days, with the fulfillment:

"And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:" -- Joel 2:28​

"And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:" -- Acts 2:17​

.

Futurists, under the pretense of literalism, claim the latter chapters of Zechariah refer to our future. But, in reality, they are prophecies of the time around the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ, as follows:

Chapter 11: Betrayal of Christ
Chapter 12: Crucifixion of Christ
Chapter 13: Scattering of Disciples
Chapter 14: The day of Pentecost

Lets look at each of those chapters. In Zechariah 11:12-13 there is an unmistakable reference to Judas and the thirty pieces of silver:

"And I said unto them, If ye think good, give me my price; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver. And the Lord said unto me, Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prised at of them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the Lord. " -- Zec 11:12-13​

That was fulfilled in Matthew 27:3-7. Next to chapter 12, and the soldier piercing the Lord with his spear:

"And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn." -- Zec 12:10​

The fulfillment is found in John 19:34. Next to chapter 13:

"Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the Lord of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones." -- Zec 13:7​

That was fulfilled when Jesus was crucified, as he explained in Matthew 26:31 and Mark 14:27. Next, in chapter 14, we see the day of Pentecost:

"And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be." -- Zech 14:8​

The terminology, "living waters", is the same terminology that Jesus used when prophesying the day of Pentecost:

"In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)" -- Jn 7:37-39​

.

But the most obvious record of fulfillment was by Jesus himself, who said that vengeance against Jerusalem would fulfil all that was written:

"For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled." -- Lk 21:22​

Jesus had "avoided" the word "vengeance" when he spoke from Isaiah early on:

"The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, To preach the acceptable year of the Lord." -- Lk 4:18-19​

But Isaiah had prophesied that one aspect of the Lord's mission would be vengeance:

"The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;" -- Isa 61:1-2​

During his ministry, the Lord foretold vengeance ONLY against Jerusalem and the Jews of his generation:

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate." -- Mt 23:37-38 ​

"Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute: That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation; From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation." -- Lk 11:49-51 ​

.

 

[ebedmelech]

You're doing a great job Rev20...but unfortunately pride makes people stubborn when they have given their all to a train of theological thought and escatology such as dispensationalism.

It's pretty much like the argument of whether the world was flat or round.

It's going to take Jesus returning to show the errors of dispensational eschatology.

 

[A New World]

You are sadly mistaken if you believe that the majority of end time prophecy is in the old testament, and at the same time adopt the tenets of futurism. The "last days" prophesies all targeted the last days of the old covenant, which ended during the contemporary generation of Christ

This is Micah on the establishment of New Jerusalem (the Church) in the last days, with the fulfillment (note that Paul speaks in present tense):

"But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the Lord shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it." -- Mic 4:1 (similar to Isaiah 2:2)​

"But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant …" -- Heb 12:22-24​

This is Joel on the day of Pentecost in the last days, with the fulfillment:

"And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:" -- Joel 2:28​

"And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:" -- Acts 2:17​

.

Futurists, under the pretense of literalism, claim the latter chapters of Zechariah refer to our future. But, in reality, they are prophecies of the time around the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ, as follows:

Chapter 11: Betrayal of Christ
Chapter 12: Crucifixion of Christ
Chapter 13: Scattering of Disciples
Chapter 14: The day of Pentecost

Lets look at each of those chapters. In Zechariah 11:12-13 there is an unmistakable reference to Judas and the thirty pieces of silver:

"And I said unto them, If ye think good, give me my price; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver. And the Lord said unto me, Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prised at of them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the Lord. " -- Zec 11:12-13​

That was fulfilled in Matthew 27:3-7. Next to chapter 12, and the soldier piercing the Lord with his spear:

"And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn." -- Zec 12:10​

The fulfillment is found in John 19:34. Next to chapter 13:

"Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the Lord of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones." -- Zec 13:7​

That was fulfilled when Jesus was crucified, as he explained in Matthew 26:31 and Mark 14:27. Next, in chapter 14, we see the day of Pentecost:

"And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be." -- Zech 14:8​

The terminology, "living waters", is the same terminology that Jesus used when prophesying the day of Pentecost:

"In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)" -- Jn 7:37-39​

.

But the most obvious record of fulfillment was by Jesus himself, who said that vengeance against Jerusalem would fulfil all that was written:

"For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled." -- Lk 21:22​

Jesus had "avoided" the word "vengeance" when he spoke from Isaiah early on:

"The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, To preach the acceptable year of the Lord." -- Lk 4:18-19​

But Isaiah had prophesied that one aspect of the Lord's mission would be vengeance:

"The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;" -- Isa 61:1-2​

During his ministry, the Lord foretold vengeance ONLY against Jerusalem and the Jews of his generation:

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate." -- Mt 23:37-38 ​

"Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute: That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation; From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation." -- Lk 11:49-51 ​

.

This is all great! Thanks for your time in assembling this. The time statements were enough to convince me of a first century AD fulfillment. All of the details continue to confirm that fact.

 

[A New World]

You're doing a great job Rev20...but unfortunately pride makes people stubborn when they have given their all to a train of theological thought and escatology such as dispensationalism.

It's pretty much like the argument of whether the world was flat or round.

It's going to take Jesus returning to show the errors of dispensational eschatology.

So since the end occurred in the first century AD the Dispensationalist will not discover their errors until they enter the eternal state.