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what Bible translation are you using here?
"Full number" is an extremely erroneous translation of the word "fulness"
The term "Fullness of the Gentiles" is oft equated with the notion of quantity, amount, or number count of Gentile believers, but does scripture support such a notion?
By comparing scripture with scripture we clearly see that "fullness" does not equate with "full number", but rather the fullness of Gods grace:
John 1:16
And of his fullness have all we received, and grace for grace.
Romans 11:12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
(This is especially instructive for us in that "fullness" is considered here to the the opposite of "fall", and in no way can be construed as a numeric value.)
Romans 15:29 And I am sure that, when I come unto you, I shall come in the fullness of the blessing of the gospel of Christ.
Ephesians 1:23 Which is his body, the fullness of him that filleth all in all.
The list goes on........
The notion of fullness in the NT carries the idea of "totality of Gods blessings and grace", and not a certain number of people.
Gentile believers are not waiting to become "full partakers" of the Grace of God, rather The Gentiles are already FULL PARTAKERS of the grace of God.
The "Fulness of the gentiles" came in 2000 years ago.
I don't see any support in either of these verses for the claim:
"One of the prophecies about Jesus return refers to a mass turning of the Jews to Christ."
Which prophesy makes this claim?
Jesus Christ came back. unfortunately we did not recognise it. We are making a mistake on taking the bible literally. The bible is written in codes and hidden symbols. Only the wisdom seekers finally get to learn the truth about the bible. Remember that God or Jesus Christ are spiritual. Meaning everything will happen in the mind or the spiritual world. The spiritual world is the real world! The physical world is the manifestation of the spiritual world. If you are more spiritual than physical, then you will see Jesus Christ.
Ok... so the Holy Spirit mislead them? and they in turn unknowingly mislead their flocks?I am pretty sure they did not know when so they did not deliberately mislead. They like us had been told to live in this expectation.
Are you a Praetorist? The NIV translation implies " until the full number" has come in. The NkJV says fullness of the gentiles but could also refer to the times of the gentiles in which they dominate the Jews in which case some say it came to an end in 1967.
You have a non standard interpretation.
That kind of puts a downer on him coming back if things have to get desperate before it happens.
In Daniel 12 there is a prediction of more travel and increased knowledge. We have technology. Persecution continues from Muslims, Communist atheists, corrupt governments, criminal neighbors and mad family members. More people in the world have access to rapid transportation. Having the Internet is like having a library at one’s fingertips. People used their iPhones to make documentary videos.
In the 60’s people worried about nuclear war because of the Cuban missile crisis. In the 70’s they worried pollution would spoil nature. In the 2000’s they worried about terminal depletion of oil and natural gas reserves. Now they worry about an overheating globe.
In the US more people die early from obesity than from starvation. Cuts to Social Security and Medicare worry the elderly. There is a lack of affordable housing and zoning laws against smaller high density dwellings. Lust had more children than diligence could adequately provide for.
And no thread would be complete without a bit of neo Gnosticism. But let us not pretend thst was what the Apostles thought.
After 2000 years why are we still waiting for the return of the King of Kings?
It was a clear expectation of the early church that Jesus would return soon. Peter even made a special effort to debunk the intellectual pagans and false teachers of his time who suggested that this was a lie and that there would be no return. In 2 Peter 1:16-21 Peter used, as the basis of his refutation of this false accusation, the experience of James, John and Peter of the Transfiguration on the Holy Mountain (where the Messiah is expected to return). Because they had seen the glorified Christ they knew that He would one day return in that same glory as the King of Kings. No one on this earth had a comparable majesty , so only Jesus could be the King we waited for. The martyrs went to their deaths in the various persecutions of the Roman empire under Nero, Domitian and later Trajan and Marcus Aurelius singing the praises of this King and in the expectation that their King, the Returning King Jesus, would soon hold corrupt demonically inspired authorities to account and that the Emperor would get his comeuppance. But 2000 years later we are still waiting. It is the strongest prophecy of the Christian church, it is the overwhelming expectation of the church, ensuring that we live lives in expectation of our final review by the returning King. It is written into our creeds.
"He will return in glory to judge the Living and the Dead and his Kingdom will have no end"
But where is he, what possible reason could there be for keeping his bride waiting so long?
The phrase “at hand” is taken from the single Greek word eggizō, and simply means “approaches.” It is not time specific. It can mean immediate or distant future, like our English word.
Well my point was it has BEGUN and maybe you don't see the signs we were given to watch for,but I do. If you can't see the apostasy in the American church and Great Britain, I don't know how.We have always had heretics and indeed some of the most vibrant times in church history were characterised by passionate errors and conflicts. Did you know for instance that both Ignatius and Justin Martyr had the view that Jesus was an incarnate angel. Yet both of these were regarded as Early Church Fathers. A general apostacy needs a lot more momentum than it currently has. It needs a sort of Stalinist government combined with a nihilistic liberal global culture to make it happen. Think we are still waiting on that one. INdia is oppressive freezing church bank accounts. Chinas imprisons pastors and the Muslims just murder them so there are bad places but overall the church has seen enormous growth the last century and Africa would be a real success story in that respect with gains far out weighing the recent losses in Europe and the Middle East. Also despite persecution the church is growing in China and in INdia
So it has no discernible meaning at all?
what about when Jesus used it here:
And he said, Go into the city to such a man, and say unto him, The Master saith, My time is at hand; I will keep the passover at thy house with my disciples. Matt 26:18
or here:
And the Jews' passover was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem. John 2:13
Distant Future? Immediate? either?
How were the disciples to know what he meant if as you say it could mean anything?
Where do you find the term "at hand" used in scripture to describe anything not actually "at hand"?
Jesus Christ came back. unfortunately we did not recognise it. We are making a mistake on taking the bible literally. The bible is written in codes and hidden symbols. Only the wisdom seekers finally get to learn the truth about the bible. Remember that God or Jesus Christ are spiritual. Meaning everything will happen in the mind or the spiritual world. The spiritual world is the real world! The physical world is the manifestation of the spiritual world. If you are more spiritual than physical, then you will see Jesus Christ.
Well my point was it has BEGUN and maybe you don't see the signs we were given to watch for,but I do. If you can't see the apostasy in the American church and Great Britain, I don't know how.
I misunderstood the spirit of your O.P.
Peter tells us that God is not slow in keeping His promises in the way that we count slowness, and that the reason why He tarries is because He takes no pleasure in destroying anyone but because He desires that all would come to repentance. (2 Pet. 3:9)
God would rather show His love than His wrath and so He tarries, but a day is coming in which He will no longer tarry but will finally have to punish sin. If we were to witness God's wrath and judgment at work in any degree, only then would we understand why He tarries. If you have ever read the book of Revelation, the judgments foretold thereby are unlike anything that we have ever seen and will be incredibly destructive: Most of the world is going to be wiped out when the judgment is complete.
How would we know? More than half of the NT is from Paul...
What institution controlled the texts in canon? It wasn't the layperson, we just do what we are told by authorities. Who has the authority?
We were already told there are principalities, archons and powers that rule this plane of existence, but we never actually listen do we (that is why we have the audacity to be political when we were also told we are not of this world).
The Word of the Most High is LIVING ENTITY, John even said not nearly all of His words can be put in all of the books in the world: so why are we using canonical texts as if they are the Living Entity when the Living Entity called the Word of the Most High is ALIVE?
I don't know; some say the "end of all things" refers to the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70, while others say it's about the Lord's return but that "at hand" can mean different things. What I do know is that 1 Peter 4:7 doesn't contradict 2 Peter 3:3-4; 8-9. Do we agree on this?Then what did Peter Mean when he Said:
“The end of all things is at hand; therefore, be of sound judgment and sober spirit for the purpose of prayer.” (I Peter 4:7)
Peter Instructed His flocks to be ready for the Judgment "about to be revealed" for "the end of all things was at hand"
Was He wrong to exhort them this way? Was He mistaken?
Was He applying a double standard in your view?
It means the same as our English word approach[es]. Tomorrow is approaching, so, too, also, is the future physical return of Christ to judge the living and the dead. Most people understand the broadness of the word. The meaning is determined by subject and context.
I don't know; some say the "end of all things" refers to the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70, while others say it's about the Lord's return but that "at hand" can mean different things. What I do know is that 1 Peter 4:7 doesn't contradict 2 Peter 3:3-4; 8-9. Do we agree on this?
Thanks for the reply! I think we agree then that 2 Peter 3:8-9 answers the question as to why it's been 2,000 years, right? God doesn't want anyone to perish, so He's being longsuffering to sinners.Thanks for addressing that passage as I have to preach on it on Sunday. In the context of the Roman Empire Christians preached their hope in the Returning King who would free them from slavery, poverty and oppression. From the fear of being rounded up and fed to lions, burnt at the stake, crucified or sent to the mines. Peter affirms that this hope is no lie. Because it rests on a person whose Majesty fits the bill of the returning King. He knows this cause he saw the glorified Christ at the Transfiguration. Jesus was more than an angel , indeed received the worship of the angels, he is and always will be the King we wait for. But you are right that even though the expectation of that time was of an imminent return Peter himself gave no date.
Also you are right we are still waiting for the full list of the marked believers to walk through that proverbial church door. The church is not yet gathered, there are some who have yet to repent. Last chance folks he is coming soon!
It means the same as our English word approach[es]. Tomorrow is approaching, so, too, also, is the future physical return of Christ to judge the living and the dead. Most people understand the broadness of the word. The meaning is determined by subject and context.
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