Why hasn't Jesus come back yet?

Erik Nelson said:

it wiped out everybody but those who obeyed Jesus' command to flee Jerusalem:

• Christians who fled to Pella --> modern Christianity
• Johannan ben Zakkai who fled to Vespasian and acknowledged him his Messiah --> modern Rabbinical Judaism

all other Jewish sects were wiped out of history (Sadducees, Essenes, Zealots)

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Copperhead said:

That is not historically true about modern Rabbinical Judaism. After the destruction of the Second Temple in 70 CE, Rabban Yochanan Ben Zakkai moved the Sanhedrin to Yavne. Some scholars believe the so-called Council of Yavne met there. The Sanhedrin left Yavne for Usha in 80 CE and returned in 116 CE.

The Bar Kochba rebellion that officially ended Israel as a territorial government under Rome was in 135 AD.

Since then, there has always been a Hebrew presence in the Land. Even during one of the Crusades, 20,000 Jews were rounded up and put in the Great Synagogue of Jerusalem and burned alive while the crusaders marched around singing "Christ We Adore Thee".

The Essenes were never "wiped out". Those that have studied extensively the Dead Sea Scrolls have seen that Essene theology closely mirrored future Christian theology. Including a pre-trib form of removal of the righteous before the final calamities come upon the earth. Over 100 years before Yeshua (Jesus) walked the earth. Now that is a shocker. Dr. Ken Johnson who has made a lifetime of studying their writings has determined that it is more probable that the Essenes merged with Christianity. The Essenes despised the Rabbinical Judaism of Jerusalem and despised the Pharisees and Sadducees. They adhered to a more Biblical modeled faith. John the Baptist did most of his work within the district that the Essenes lived in. There was a high probability that JB was associated with them to quite an extent.

The main center of "modern" Christianity was established in Damascus, not Pella. With the more gnostic (Hellenized) form of Christianity headquartered in Alexandria. Those two became the major centers of Christianity and in many ways opposed each other. The Alexandrian school eventually led to the theology that developed into the Amillenial centered
RCC. Alexandria birthed Origen based theology that dismissed a more conservative, literal interpretation of scripture and birthed modern allegorical interpretation. Augustine fully established this later and it has become the predominate exegesis standard.

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Copperhead said:

Read all of it....

Hosea 5:14-15 (NKJV) For I will be like a lion to Ephraim,
And like a young lion to the house of Judah.
I, even I, will tear them and go away;
I will take them away, and no one shall rescue.
15 I will return again to My place
Till they [both houses] acknowledge their offense.
Then they will seek My face;
In their affliction they will earnestly seek Me."

That is ALL Jacob/Israel. Both houses. They were present in the Land when they rejected Yeshua.

Eliminates the goofy ideas floating around that the Church is now Israel (Ephraim). The Church did not reject Yeshua so as to cause Him to return to His place.

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sovereigngrace said:

I agree, Pella was not the ancient center of Christianity. I also believe the second center was found in Syria. But where is your evidence that Damascus was that focal city? Surely it was Antioch?

So, where is your evidence that the Egyptian church centered in Alexandria was Gnostic (Hellenized)? A spiritual approach to the likes of Revelation does not prove Gnosticisim. That is faulty or ignorant reasoning/scholarship.

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claninja said:

Which part of post 322 focused on Titus?

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Copperhead said:

I miswrote, I did mean Antioch. Thanks for the correction!

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Erik Nelson said:

Well, maybe they prefigure "the" Gog & Magog...

but "the" Gog & Magog (Rev 20:7-9) appear after the Millennium... after the 10 horns... after Armageddon destroys Babylon... after the Crucifixion

So no way could a people prominent in the "BC" era be the direct referent of Rev 20:7-9 >>1000 years after the "AD" era began




again, just like John the Baptist warned, their was an "Apocalypse" coming to first century Judea... it arrived in 70 AD...

it wiped out everybody but those who obeyed Jesus' command to flee Jerusalem:

• Christians who fled to Pella --> modern Christianity
• Johannan ben Zakkai who fled to Vespasian and acknowledged him his Messiah --> modern Rabbinical Judaism

all other Jewish sects were wiped out of history (Sadducees, Essenes, Zealots)

But the End Times of earth is not one single split-second event...

Revelation is unambiguous that from Armageddon destroying Babylon (70 AD) to "fire from heaven" at the 2C for FJ... much more than 1000 years elapses

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claninja said:

Jesus doesn't come at the end of the millennium.

revelation 20:7-8 And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea.

Jesus comes after satan's little season

Revelation 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them.




Again peter compares and contrasts 2 sets of heaven and earth. 1 Before the flood and 1 after the flood. 1 where the kosmos is destroyed by the flood which was "existing (imperfect tense) long ago", 1 where the ungodly are destroyed by fire which now exists (present tense).

2 Peter 3:5-7 For they deliberately overlook this fact, that the heavens existed long ago, and the earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God, and that by means of these the world that then existed was deluged with water and perished. But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.


Peter's use of language is consistent with OT parabolic language of judgment, several examples include

Judgment againts Edom = literal, the heavens rotting = metaphorical
Isaiah 34:3-5 Their slain shall be cast out,and the stench of their corpses shall rise;
the mountains shall flow with their blood. All the host of heaven shall rot away,
and the skies roll up like a scroll.All their host shall fall,as leaves fall from the vine,
like leaves falling from the fig tree. For my sword has drunk its fill in the heavens;
behold, it descends for judgment upon Edom,upon the people I have devoted to destruction.

Judgment againts Babylon = literal, heavens trembling, earth shaken out of its place = metaphorical
Isaiah 13:13 Therefore I will make the heavens tremble, and the earth will be shaken out of its place,
at the wrath of the LORD of hosts in the day of his fierce anger.

Judgment against Ninevah = literal, hills melting, mountains quaking, earth heaving = metaphorical
Nahum 1:1-5 an oracle concerning Nineveh. The book of the vision of Nahum of Elkosh. The LORD is a jealous and avenging God;the LORD is avenging and wrathful;the LORD takes vengeance on his adversaries and keeps wrath for his enemies. The LORD is slow to anger and great in power,
and the LORD will by no means clear the guilty.His way is in whirlwind and storm, and the clouds are the dust of his feet. He rebukes the sea and makes it dry; he dries up all the rivers;Bashan and Carmel wither;the bloom of Lebanon withers. The mountains quake before him; the hills melt;
the earth heaves before him,the world and all who dwell in it.




Again you cannot provide and posts of mine where I go into detail about Titus. Interesting.......

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sovereigngrace said:

Sounds good!

So, where is your evidence that the Egyptian church centered in Alexandria was Gnostic (Hellenized)? A spiritual approach to the likes of Revelation does not prove Gnosticisim.

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sovereigngrace said:

Sounds good!

So, where is your evidence that the Egyptian church centered in Alexandria was Gnostic (Hellenized)? A spiritual approach to the likes of Revelation does not prove Gnosticisim.

Click to expand...

Copperhead said:

Get a college level text book on the history of Exegesis.

Origen was of the Alexandrian school. He started the methodology of allegorizing or spiritualizing the scripture. Augustine of Hippo picked up on the Origenian exegetical style.

Here are 14 of Adamantius Origen's beliefs. When he taught, he wore the pagan robes of the pagan philosopher plus he castrated himself based on his Gnostic views of the evil of the flesh.
1) He believed the Holy Spirit was a feminine force.
2) He believed in Soul Sleep
3) He was a very strong proponent of Baptismal regeneration
4) He believed that Jesus was only a created being and Gnosticism taught that Jesus became Christ at his baptism but that he was never God. He was a just a good man with very high morals.
5) He believed in the doctrine of Purgatory
6) He believed in transubstantiation
7) He believed in the transmigration of the soul and reincarnation of the soul.
8) He doubted the temptations of Jesus in Scripture and claimed they could have never happened.
9) The Scriptures were not literal. He was the father of allegory.
10) Genesis 1-3 was a myth, not historical or literal, as there was no actual person named "Adam."
11) Based upon Matthew 19, a true man of God should be castrated, which he did to himself.
12) He taught eternal life was not a gift, instead one must grab hold of it and retain it.
13) Christ enters no man until they mentally grasp the understanding of the consummation of the ages. (It was Frederick Dennison Maurice in the 19th century who defined eternal life as coming to a knowledge of God. This is the essence of Gnosticism.)
14) He taught there would be no physical resurrection of the believers.

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Copperhead said:

Get a college level text book on the history of Exegesis.

Origen was of the Alexandrian school. He started the methodology of allegorizing or spiritualizing the scripture. Augustine of Hippo picked up on the Origenian exegetical style.

Here are 14 of Adamantius Origen's beliefs. When he taught, he wore the pagan robes of the pagan philosopher plus he castrated himself based on his Gnostic views of the evil of the flesh.
1) He believed the Holy Spirit was a feminine force.
2) He believed in Soul Sleep
3) He was a very strong proponent of Baptismal regeneration
4) He believed that Jesus was only a created being and Gnosticism taught that Jesus became Christ at his baptism but that he was never God. He was a just a good man with very high morals.
5) He believed in the doctrine of Purgatory
6) He believed in transubstantiation
7) He believed in the transmigration of the soul and reincarnation of the soul.
8) He doubted the temptations of Jesus in Scripture and claimed they could have never happened.
9) The Scriptures were not literal. He was the father of allegory.
10) Genesis 1-3 was a myth, not historical or literal, as there was no actual person named "Adam."
11) Based upon Matthew 19, a true man of God should be castrated, which he did to himself.
12) He taught eternal life was not a gift, instead one must grab hold of it and retain it.
13) Christ enters no man until they mentally grasp the understanding of the consummation of the ages. (It was Frederick Dennison Maurice in the 19th century who defined eternal life as coming to a knowledge of God. This is the essence of Gnosticism.)
14) He taught there would be no physical resurrection of the believers.

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sovereigngrace said:

This is classic false Premil propaganda. Zero quotes from Origen. Present your evidence, not your propaganda.

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• Although Christ was God, he took flesh; and having been made man, he remained what he was, God.
• You yourself are even another little world and have within you the sun and the moon and also the stars.
• What good does it do me if Christ was born in Bethlehem once if he is not born again in my heart through faith?
• The human heart is no small thing, for it can embrace so much.

Copperhead said:

Read all of it....

Hosea 5:14-15 (NKJV) For I will be like a lion to Ephraim,
And like a young lion to the house of Judah.
I, even I, will tear them and go away;
I will take them away, and no one shall rescue.
15 I will return again to My place
Till they [both houses] acknowledge their offense.
Then they will seek My face;
In their affliction they will earnestly seek Me."

That is ALL Jacob/Israel. Both houses. They were present in the Land when they rejected Yeshua.

Eliminates the goofy ideas floating around that the Church is now Israel (Ephraim). The Church did not reject Yeshua so as to cause Him to return to His place.

Click to expand...

throughfireytrial said:

Should even some of this prove true then Origen should be dismissed from one's reading list since it could only be a source of confusion leading to corruption. I happily dismiss writings outside of Scripture for the most part. Sadly what I have read of them proves at least on some points to contradict Scripture and sound teachings. I am always reminded to praise God for our Scriptures...you cannot deny His hand in the canonization.

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summerville said:

Yes, some Christians reject education. Doesn't mean they should.

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Copperhead said:

That is not historically true about modern Rabbinical Judaism. After the destruction of the Second Temple in 70 CE, Rabban Yochanan Ben Zakkai moved the Sanhedrin to Yavne. Some scholars believe the so-called Council of Yavne met there. The Sanhedrin left Yavne for Usha in 80 CE and returned in 116 CE.

The Bar Kochba rebellion that officially ended Israel as a territorial government under Rome was in 135 AD.

Since then, there has always been a Hebrew presence in the Land. Even during one of the Crusades, 20,000 Jews were rounded up and put in the Great Synagogue of Jerusalem and burned alive while the crusaders marched around singing "Christ We Adore Thee".

The Essenes were never "wiped out". Those that have studied extensively the Dead Sea Scrolls have seen that Essene theology closely mirrored future Christian theology. Including a pre-trib form of removal of the righteous before the final calamities come upon the earth. Over 100 years before Yeshua (Jesus) walked the earth. Now that is a shocker. Dr. Ken Johnson who has made a lifetime of studying their writings has determined that it is more probable that the Essenes merged with Christianity. The Essenes despised the Rabbinical Judaism of Jerusalem and despised the Pharisees and Sadducees. They adhered to a more Biblical modeled faith. John the Baptist did most of his work within the district that the Essenes lived in. There was a high probability that JB was associated with them to quite an extent.

The main center of "modern" Christianity was established in Damascus, not Pella. With the more gnostic (Hellenized) form of Christianity headquartered in Alexandria. Those two became the major centers of Christianity and in many ways opposed each other. The Alexandrian school eventually led to the theology that developed into the Amillenial centered
RCC. Alexandria birthed Origen based theology that dismissed a more conservative, literal interpretation of scripture and birthed modern allegorical interpretation. Augustine fully established this later and it has become the predominate exegesis standard.

Click to expand...

sovereigngrace said:

I agree, Pella was not the ancient center of Christianity. I also believe the second center was found in Syria. But where is your evidence that Damascus was that focal city? Surely it was Antioch?

So, where is your evidence that the Egyptian church centered in Alexandria was Gnostic (Hellenized)? A spiritual approach to the likes of Revelation does not prove Gnosticisim. That is faulty or ignorant reasoning/scholarship.

Click to expand...

peterlindner said:

Jesus came at Hebrew year 3,760. This is 235 times 16. There are 235 months in a metonic cycle. The millennium is 5,760 or 360 times 16. If your ears (of corn) are full then the first fruits is 20 more loaves for 5,780

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sovereigngrace said:

1. When was/is sin eliminated?
2. When was/is the sinner eliminated?
3. When was/is death eliminated?
4. When was/is corruption eliminated?
5. When was/is Satan eliminated?
6. When was/is marriage eliminated?
7. When was/is perfect righteousness introduced?
8. When was/is peace and perfection finally introduced?
9. When was/is incorruption introduced
10.Are we still living in an "evil age" or not?
11.When does crying stop?
12.When does pain stop?
13.When does sorrow stop?
14.When is the curse lifted?
15.When was/is all rule, authority and power finally put down?

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