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Why hasn't Christ returned yet?

Mb_C

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This I do not agree with. No matter how long we live, we don't obtain perfection. But God will make us perfect after we die, or when we are gathered and clothed in immortality (1 Corinthians 15:50-58).
It is not necessarily us. I'm saying it's an eventuality that the final generation of believers are able to be completely sanctified. But saying it's impossible is not accurate - Enoch did it. 1 John 3:4-6 points to it as possible.

I have a different perspective on the plagues of the seven bowls. In Matthew 13, in the parable of the wheat and the tares, Jesus said both wheat (true believers) and tares (false believers or unbelivers) would grow together until the harvest at the end of the age. He specifically indicates the tares will be gathered first (to be destroyed) and then the wheat. Therefore, how can Jesus can come back at/after the seventh trumpet and gather the righteous, followed then by seven bowls of wrath on the wicked? So, this is what I believe: the trumpets and bowls will be in parallel, not series. So, the first Trumpet and first Bowl would coincide, etc., up to the Seventh Trumpet and Seventh Bowl. I think of the Trumpets and Bowls as two cameras recording different angles of the same events - the Trumpets are focused on the global impact (e.g., Revelation 8:7-15) and the Bowls on the kingdom of the Beast (Revelation 14:9-10, Revelation 16:2, Revelation 16:10).
Oh yeah, I think the plagues and trumpets are possibly simultaneous because both end with "the temple in heaven opened".
 
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Mb_C said in post 99:

Jesus isn't coming until the 7th trumpet sounds (Revelation 11:15-19).

Then are you of the pre-wrath rapture view, instead of the post-tribulation rapture view?

Regarding the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15-19), note that it doesn't refer to any coming of Jesus. Instead, Revelation 11:15 refers to the future point in time (to us) (Revelation 4:1b) when Jesus will take ultimate, legal, physical authority over the earth, away from Satan (cf. Luke 4:5-7) and Satan's fallen angels (Ephesians 6:12), and away from the future Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 13:4-18, cf. Revelation 12:9) and the Antichrist's 10 kings (Revelation 17:12-13), right when the 7th trumpet sounds. It won't be until a little later that Jesus will physically return and take de facto, physical control of the earth at his 2nd coming and during the subsequent millennium (Revelation 19:11 to 20:6).

Jesus' 2nd coming won't occur immediately after the sounding of the tribulation's 7th trumpet and the declaration of the legal replacement of the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5 year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18, Revelation 12:6,14) with Jesus' reign (Revelation 11:15). For a "time" (Revelation 11:18) can last awhile (cf. Revelation 12:14). It is like if someone said: "It is time to sell this house"; this doesn't mean that it will get sold immediately. The only part of Revelation 11:18 which will happen immediately after the 7th trumpet sounds is "thy wrath is come". For the plagues of the vials (Revelation 16), the tribulation's final stage, will come out of the 7th trumpet's heavenly-temple opening (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1).

So the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15-19), even though it will be the last trumpet to sound during the tribulation, won't be the resurrection "last trump" of 1 Corinthians 15:52. The latter won't sound until after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, at Jesus' 2nd coming (Matthew 24:29-31; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16), which won't occur until Revelation 19, and which is when the church will be physically resurrected (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-54; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16).

Before the 2nd coming, the tribulation's final, Revelation 16 stage could last for 75 literal days. For the 1st vial in Revelation 16 could be poured out immediately after the 1,260 literal days of the Antichrist's worldwide reign, which 1,260 days could begin when the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31,36). And Jesus could return on the 1,335th day after the setting up of the abomination of desolation (Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15). An analogy for the possible 75-day vials-delay between Jesus taking legal possession of the earth (Revelation 11:15) and his return to take de facto, physical possession of it (Revelation chapters 19-20) would be someone in New York legally inheriting a house in California, 75 days before he moves there to live in that house.

At Jesus' 2nd coming, he will physically resurrect and judge only the church (1 Corinthians 15:21-23; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Psalms 50:3-6, cf. Mark 13:27), and then he will marry the obedient part of the church (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12). Then Revelation 19:11-21 will occur. So both the resurrection and the rewarding of the church spoken of in Revelation 11:18, as well as the destroying of the destroyers of the earth spoken of in Revelation 11:18, could occur 75 days after the 7th trumpet's sounding. And because a "time" can last awhile (cf. Revelation 12:14), this would still be well within the "time" referred to in Revelation 11:18.

Everyone not physically resurrected and judged at Jesus' 2nd coming won't be physically resurrected and judged until Revelation 20:11-15, which won't occur until sometime after the returned Jesus and the physically resurrected church have reigned on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). Both resurrections and judgments can still occur within Revelation 11:18's "time". For the original Greek word (kairos: G2540) translated there as "time" can refer to even quite a long period. For example, the same Greek word is used in 2 Corinthians 6:2 to refer to the "time" of people getting saved, which has been going on for thousands of years.

Mb_C said in post 99:

The 7th trumpet isn't going to sound until the mystery of God is complete (Revelation 10:7).

Revelation 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

In Revelation 10:7, "finished" in the original Greek is "teleo" (G5055), which can mean "performed" (Luke 2:39). Revelation 10:7 means that the prophetic writings regarding the tribulation will finish being performed at the 7th trumpet of the tribulation. For out of the 7th trumpet's heavenly-temple opening will come the final stage of the tribulation, the 7 plagues of the 7 vials of God's wrath (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1).

In Revelation 10:7, the "mystery" is currently known by the church, just as, for example, the "mystery" in Romans 16:25-26 and Colossians 1:26 is currently known by the church. For the mystery in Revelation 10:7 has already been "declared to his servants the prophets" (Revelation 10:7), just as the "mystery" in Romans 16:25-26 and Colossians 1:26 is already "made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets" (Romans 16:26).

Mb_C said in post 99:

Only then can Jesus come, because when He comes, no one can "enter" the heavenly sanctuary during the 7 plagues (Revelation 15:8).

Do you mean that the rapture will take believers into the 3rd heaven (cf. 2 Corinthians 12:2b)? If so, note that no scripture requires that believers will be raptured any higher than the clouds of the sky (the 1st heaven) to hold a meeting in the air with Jesus at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17). After that meeting, in which the church will be judged by Jesus (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27), and the obedient part of the church will be married to Jesus (Revelation 19:7, Matthew 25:1-13), the obedient part of the church will come back down from the sky (the 1st heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:15-21) to reign on the earth with him for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). After the 1,000 years and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-15, Ezekiel chapters 38-39), the obedient part of the church will live on the new earth with God the Father and Jesus in the literal city of New Jerusalem (Revelation chapters 21-22).
 
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Luke17:37 said in post 100:

In Matthew 13, in the parable of the wheat and the tares, Jesus said both wheat (true believers) and tares (false believers or unbelivers) would grow together until the harvest at the end of the age.

Regarding the parable of the wheat and the tares (Matthew 13:24-30,36-43), in Matthew 13:38 the good seed are the elect, and the tares are the nonelect, the human children of Satan, who can't ever believe in Jesus (John 8:42-47). Matthew 13:40-42 won't occur at the 2nd coming, but at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-14), after the future millennium and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-10), when the unsaved will be cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:15). In Matthew 13:43, the kingdom of the Father is after the great white throne judgment, when a new earth (a new surface of the earth) will be created, and God the Father will descend from heaven in the literal city of New Jerusalem to live with the church on the new earth (Revelation 21:1-3).

Luke17:37 said in post 100:

So, this is what I believe: the trumpets and bowls will be in parallel, not series.

Actually, the trumpets will occur sometime before the vials and affect only 1/3 of different things (Revelation 8:7 to 9:18), whereas the vials will affect things in their entirety (Revelation 16). The 7 plagues of the 7 vials will come out of the heavenly-temple opening of the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1).

That is, Revelation chapters 6 to 22 are chronological insofar as the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 will begin with the events of the 2nd through 6th seals, occurring in the order shown in Revelation 6:3-14. After the events of the 6th seal, Revelation 7 will occur. Then the 7th seal will be unsealed, and out of it will come the tribulation's 7 trumpets (Revelation 8:1-6). Then the events of the first 6 trumpets in Revelation 8:7 to Revelation 9:21 will occur in the order shown there. Then Revelation 10 will occur. Then the literal 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign will occur, which time period is shown from 4 different angles in Revelation chapters 11 to 14 (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5,7, Revelation 14:9-13).

Then the 7th trumpet will sound, announcing the legal end of the Antichrist's reign (Revelation 11:15). Out of the 7th trumpet's heavenly-temple opening will come the 7 plagues of the 7 vials (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1), the tribulation's final stage. Then the events of the 7 vials will occur in the order shown in Revelation 16. Jesus will return right after the 7th vial (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2-21), and he will rapture and marry the church at that time (Revelation 19:7). Then he will defeat the world's armies (Revelation 19:11 to 20:3) and reign on the earth with the physically resurrected church for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29; 1 Corinthians 15:51-53). Then the events of Revelation 20:7 to Revelation 22:5 will occur in the order shown there.
 
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ac28

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Christ won't return until Israel, as a nation, accepts Christ as their promised Messiah - Matthew 23:39, Luke 13:35, Acts 3:19-21. Also, Christ won't come until Elijah comes and restores all things - Malachi 4:5, Matthew 11:14, Matthew 17:10-12. Israel has never accepted Christ as the Messiah. They will during the tribulation.

These facts, of course, eliminate full preterism as a viable doctrine.
 
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newlightseven

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I know it is hard to understand but it has only been 2 days since the Lord has left us, for we know a day is like a thousand years with him. We moan and groan desperately awaiting our new bodies and to be clothed with our new home from above.

Oh how God's own words prove to be prophetic
 
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dqhall

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Christ won't return until Israel, as a nation, accepts Christ as their promised Messiah - Matthew 23:39, Luke 13:35, Acts 3:19-21. Also, Christ won't come until Elijah comes and restores all things - Malachi 4:5, Matthew 11:14, Matthew 17:10-12. Israel has never accepted Christ as the Messiah. They will during the tribulation.

These facts, of course, eliminate full preterism as a viable doctrine.
Mathew 11:13 indicates John the Baptist was the Elijah who was to come before the Messiah. Jesus revealed the kingdom of heaven to Israel in his teachings and actions. Not all Israel will be able receive these teachings, but those who believe will find heaven. God is doing works of healing, teaching and salvation today.

When will there be a better heaven and earth? As soon as people make their place better. The Holy Spirit was given during the day of Pentecost for instruction and correction. People wait for they cannot see God or opportunity in this world. For all intensive purposes heaven is a work in progress.
 
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stephen583

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I know it is hard to understand but it has only been 2 days since the Lord has left us, for we know a day is like a thousand years with him


I was wondering if anyone else was going to recognize the fact God doesn't reckon time the way we do here on Earth. It says that in 2 Peter 3:8, the Scripture you quoted. You're right. The way God reckons time, (a thousand years of our time equals one day) means the way God sees it, Jesus was resurrected from the dead and ascended to heaven a little more than two days ago.

This also means Jesus and the Apostles were correct when they said, "The time is at hand", or "we are living in the last days". These statements were consistent with what Peter expressed in his epistle, and explains why such statements were not made erroneously. Jesus and the Apostles were speaking in a "spiritual", not a "literal" sense. Any other interpretation assumes Jesus and his disciples were operating under the "false" impression the Last Days were "literally" imminent the way we reckon time, here on Earth. Obviously that wasn't the case.

This brings up an even more interesting question. What if Jesus, his disciples and the Apostle Peter were not only speaking "spiritually", but also in a "prophetic" sense. 2 Peter 3:8 begins with the words, "Do not let this one thing escape your notice", or "Do not be ignorant of this one thing". Peter is saying, among everything else I have taught you, this one thing is of singular importance. That means 2 Peter 3:8 may be one of the MOST critical teachings of the NT. What if Peter's statement is the key to understanding the meaning of End Time Bible prophecy ?

In Revelation 17:12 End Time Bible prophecy speaks of ten kings who receive power with the beast for "ONE HOUR". It seems unrealistic to maintain this passage refers to a "literal" hour of sixty minutes the way we reckon time. What could any system of government hope to accomplish in such a short period of time. However, what if the "HOUR" mentioned in Revelation 17:12 is calculated according to the example stated in 2 Peter 3:8. The math is pretty straight forward. !,000 years divided by 24 (the number of hours in a day) equals 41.6, or forty one and a half years. Does this alternate interpretation shed any light on the prophecy of Revelation 17:12, let's take a look ?

According to history, the Soviet Iron Curtain fell across Eastern Europe in March 1947 when then President Truman issued his "Policy of Containment" against Stalinism. At the time, the East Bloc consisted of TEN kingdoms. The Soviet Union, Poland, East Germany, Albania, Yugoslavia, Bulgaria, Romania, Czechoslovakia and Hungary (The iron of Daniel's prophecy, Dan.2:42). The TENTH kingdom consists of the Roman Catholic population of Eastern Europe representing the Vatican State, (The miry clay of Daniels prophecy representing apostate religion and infirm spiritual beliefs, Psalm 40:2).

In numerical terms March 1947 becomes 1947.3. Add (ONE HOUR) 41.6 years to that date and you arrive at 1988.9, or September 1988. The Headlines of Time Magazine from that date read; "Eastern Europe Erupts In Arc of Unrest As Young Activists Demand Reform". It is marks the beginning of the "Velvet Revolution" in Poland and the beginning of the end of the Cold War era. Interpreted correctly, Bible prophecy accurately predicts exactly how long the Cold War era lasts, down to the month and the year.

Coincidence ?! That would be an incredible coincidence, wouldn't it ?! Like the same person winning the Power Ball Lottery four times in a row. In other words, it would represent a mathematical impossibility.

Just a little something to think about.
 
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ac28

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Mathew 11:13 indicates John the Baptist was the Elijah who was to come before the Messiah.
That's true, but since Israel didn't accept Christ as the Messiah, John the Baptist was NOT Elijah, at least not at that time or any time since then. John was beheaded.
 
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stephen583

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That's true, but since Israel didn't accept Christ as the Messiah, John the Baptist was NOT Elijah, at least not at that time or any time since then. John was beheaded.

The fact John the Baptist fulfilled the prophecies found in the Books of Isaiah, Malachi and Exodus as the one who would precede the Messiah in the "spirit" of Elijah is virtually universally recognized by every mainstream Christian, conservative Bible scholar in existence. I don't know where you get your doctrine from, but it has got to be from some "fringe" denomination of Christianity.

John the Baptists attire and behavior is not only reminiscent of Elijah, (2 Kings 1:8, Matthew 3:1-12), but according to the Scripture, the ministry of John the Baptist in the "power and spirit of Elijah" was foretold to his father Zachariah by the angel Gabriel, (Luke 1:17). The Biblical evidence John the Baptist was acting in the Spirit of Elijah is irrefutable and beyond contestation.
 
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Achilles6129

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The fact John the Baptist fulfilled the prophecies found in the Books of Isaiah, Malachi and Exodus as the one who would precede the Messiah in the "spirit" of Elijah is virtually universally recognized by every mainstream Christian, conservative Bible scholar in existence. I don't know where you get your doctrine from, but it has got to be from some "fringe" denomination of Christianity.

John the Baptists attire and behavior is not only reminiscent of Elijah, (2 Kings 1:8, Matthew 3:1-12), but according to the Scripture, the ministry of John the Baptist in the "power and spirit of Elijah" was foretold to his father Zachariah by the angel Gabriel, (Luke 1:17). The Biblical evidence John the Baptist was acting in the Spirit of Elijah is irrefutable and beyond contestation.

OK, so what do you make of Christ's statement that "Elijah shall indeed first come, and shall restore all things" (Mt. 17:11, Mk. 9:12)?
 
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ac28

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The fact John the Baptist fulfilled the prophecies found in the Books of Isaiah, Malachi and Exodus as the one who would precede the Messiah in the "spirit" of Elijah is virtually universally recognized by every mainstream Christian, conservative Bible scholar in existence. I don't know where you get your doctrine from, but it has got to be from some "fringe" denomination of Christianity.

John the Baptists attire and behavior is not only reminiscent of Elijah, (2 Kings 1:8, Matthew 3:1-12), but according to the Scripture, the ministry of John the Baptist in the "power and spirit of Elijah" was foretold to his father Zachariah by the angel Gabriel, (Luke 1:17). The Biblical evidence John the Baptist was acting in the Spirit of Elijah is irrefutable and beyond contestation.

All my doctrine comes from the Bible. Where does yours come from - the scholars? John the Baptist restored nothing. He fulfilled everything in prophecy but restoration - the main thing. He was actually Elijah, but the reality of it hinged on Israel accepting Christ. There's no doubt he was Elijah, but he wasn't accepted as such by Israel. He was but he wasn't. When God, through His foreknowledge, knows that Israel will accept Christ, Elijah will appear first and restore everything.
Malachi 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord:

This didn't happen.

Matthew 17:12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.

You said, "universally recognized by every mainstream Christian, conservative Bible scholar in existence." I can't think of a better reason to reject it. Those guys are often the least knowledgeable ones. I put no faith in anything believed by most other people, especially the "scholars." The "critics" are even worse.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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It is not necessarily us. I'm saying it's an eventuality that the final generation of believers are able to be completely sanctified. But saying it's impossible is not accurate - Enoch did it. 1 John 3:4-6 points to it as possible.
It has been done, accomplished by Yhwh in ekklesia, by faith (for real) and grace in Jesus,
all over the world, in the ones (remnant; few) Yhwh called, chose, for Himself,
since the NT (see all through the NT, when / where it was accomplished >> search "in union" throught OT and NT, especially NT, as in THEY LIVED IN UNION WITH YESHUA(JESUS) ).
They didn't live in continual sin like we see everywhere today.
As you pointed out correctly , God shows it is possible AND accomplished in 1 John 3 and much much more of the NT (descriptions of the ekklesia show this clearly; in the Bible, and TOday, where it is real and true) ...
 
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ac28 said in post 104:

Christ won't return until Israel, as a nation, accepts Christ as their promised Messiah - Matthew 23:39, Luke 13:35, Acts 3:19-21.

Matthew 23:39 and Luke 13:35 refer to the future salvation of the unbelieving elect Jews who will be living in Jerusalem at Jesus' 2nd coming, when they will see him in person and believe in him (Zechariah 12:10-14, Romans 11:26-29).

Regarding Acts 3:19-21, Jesus coming back to the earth immediately after the future tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31) to "restore all things" (Acts 3:20-21) can refer to him restoring all things regarding the kingdom of Israel (Acts 1:6, Zechariah 14:3-21).

For Jesus' kingdom is Israel (John 1:49, John 12:13-15, John 19:19, Luke 22:30). And at Jesus' 2nd coming, he will sit on the earthly throne of David (Luke 1:32-33, Isaiah 9:7), and restore the kingdom to Israel (Acts 1:6-7, Acts 3:20-21). Jesus is, in his humanity, the son of David (Matthew 1:1, Matthew 21:15-16, Romans 1:3), of the house of David (Luke 1:69). So at Jesus' 2nd coming, he will restore the tabernacle, the house, of David (Isaiah 16:5, Amos 9:11) to its royal glory (2 Samuel 5:12), which it had lost (2 Kings 17:21a). And Jesus will fulfill the prophecy and prayer of 2 Samuel 7:16-29. And he will bring salvation to all the still-living, unbelieving elect Jews of the house of David. For they (along with all other still-living, unbelieving elect Jews) will come into faith in him when they see him at his 2nd coming (Zechariah 12:10-14, Zechariah 13:1,6, Romans 11:26-31). And so they will all become part of the church at that time, for now there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6).

After Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:3, Zechariah 14:3-5) will occur the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Zechariah 14:8-21), during which time the Gentile nations will come to seek the returned Jesus ruling the whole earth (Zechariah 8:22, Zechariah 14:9, Psalms 72:8-11) on the restored throne of David (Isaiah 9:7) in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 2:1-4, Zechariah 14:8-11,16-19). And the physically resurrected church will reign on the earth with Jesus during the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). For the church is Israel (Romans 11:1,17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10).

ac28 said in post 104:

Also, Christ won't come until Elijah comes and restores all things - Malachi 4:5, Matthew 11:14, Matthew 17:10-12.

The coming of Elijah referred to in Malachi 4:5-6 was fulfilled by the coming of John the Baptist in the spirit and power of Elijah (Luke 1:17, Matthew 11:14). Malachi 4:6 was fulfilled in the time of John the Baptist (Luke 1:17) in those Jews who heeded his acclamation regarding Jesus in John 1:29.

Regarding Matthew 11:14 and Matthew 17:10-13, the latter can be understood as referring to 2 different comings of Elijah, the 1st being John the Baptist's coming "in the spirit and power of Elijah" (Luke 1:17, Matthew 17:12-13), and the 2nd being a still-future, physical coming-back of Elijah himself, when he will restore all things (Matthew 17:11), in the sense of restoring all true doctrine, i.e. all true interpretation of the Bible (2 Timothy 3:16), to the church. This still-future, physical coming-back of Elijah himself could occur at the midpoint of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, when Elijah could come back physically from heaven as one of the 2 witnesses (Revelation 11:3-12).

That is, in the never-fulfilled Revelation 11:3-12, the 2 witnesses could be literally Moses and Elijah. For the 2 men seen "standing before the God of the earth" (Revelation 11:4) at the transfiguration were Moses and Elijah (Matthew 17:3). And in Revelation 11:4, the 2 "olive trees" refer back to the 2 men who were already standing by the Lord by the time of the prophet Zechariah (Zechariah 4:11,14), which was subsequent to the times of Moses and Elijah.

Moses and Elijah could come down from heaven in their mortal bodies at the midpoint of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, just as they came down at the transfiguration. Also, the plagues which the 2 witnesses will cause (Revelation 11:6,5) will match plagues which Moses and Elijah caused in Old Testament times (James 5:17, Exodus 7:20; 2 Kings 1:10-14).

Elijah never died, but was taken physically into heaven (2 Kings 2:11b). And Michael the archangel retrieved Moses' dead body from Satan (Jude 1:9). Michael could have then taken Moses' recently-dead body into heaven, where it could have been resuscitated by God back to mortal life, like how, for example, Lazarus' recently-dead body was resuscitated by God back to mortal life (John 12:1). This would explain how both Moses and Elijah could be alive at the transfiguration (Matthew 17:3).

The 2 witnesses will prophesy and bring plagues on the world during the future, literal 3.5 years (Revelation 11:2b-3,6) of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5,7, Revelation 12:6,14), which will be in the latter half of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. That is why the Antichrist's reign will legally end (Revelation 11:15) right after the time of the 2 witnesses on the earth will end (Revelation 11:12-15). The plagues which they will bring (Revelation 11:6) will be part of the tribulation's 2nd woe/6th trumpet (Revelation 11:14, Revelation 9:12-13). They will be taken up to heaven before the tribulation's 7th trumpet sounds (Revelation 11:12,15).

They may not be witnesses in the sense of evangelizing the world (Acts 1:8). For the original Greek word (martus: G3144) translated as "witnesses" (Revelation 11:3) can also refer to those who witness against people and bring punishment against them (Acts 7:58). The reason that there will be 2 witnesses (Revelation 11:3) who will bring plagues to torment the unrepentant world (Revelation 11:6,10b) would be because 2 witnesses are required to bring judgment against people (1 Timothy 5:19). At the same time, the 2 "witnesses" could be called that because both of them will be martyred (Revelation 11:7-9). For the same original Greek word translated as "witnesses" (Revelation 11:3) can refer to "martyrs" (Revelation 17:6).

ac28 said in post 104:

Israel has never accepted Christ as the Messiah. They will during the tribulation.

Are you thinking of Romans 11:25-26? If so, there the Gentiles are genetic Gentiles, the people addressed throughout Romans 11:13-31, who aren't genetic Jews like Paul the apostle (Romans 11:1,14). Both individual genetic Jewish believers (natural branches) and individual genetic Gentile believers (engrafted wild branches) are branches in the good olive tree of Israel (Romans 11:17,24). For when Gentiles become believers they "come in" (Romans 11:25) to be part of Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29). The fruit of each individual branch would be the good works of each individual (Colossians 1:10). It is the genetic Jews who are "blind in part", meaning that some (in the sense of not all) of them are spiritually blind while others aren't (Romans 11:7-10). For "blindness in part is happened to Israel" (Romans 11:25) in its genetic sense (Romans 11:1,14), that is, genetic Jews (Acts 22:3). Also, in Romans 11:25-26, "Israel" includes elect genetic Jews who aren't yet believers (Romans 11:28), but who will become believers eventually (Romans 11:26).

When Paul says "until the fulness (pleroma) of the Gentiles be come in" (Romans 11:25), he means until a full number of genetic Gentile individuals have become saved, which won't happen until near the end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, right before Jesus' 2nd coming (Romans 11:26), immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-30), just as Luke 21:24 shows that "the times of the Gentiles" won't be "fulfilled (pleroo)" until the completion of the treading down of Jerusalem during the future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 11:2b, Revelation 13:5-18), during the 2nd half of the tribulation.

Immediately after the tribulation, when the whole world will see the amazing return of Jesus himself (Matthew 24:29-30, Revelation 1:7), all the still-living, unsaved, elect genetic Jews will be ashamed, and will all weep and become saved when they see Jesus and realize that he truly is their salvation (Zechariah 12:10-14, Romans 11:26-29). And so they will all become part of the church at that time, just as when genetic Jews believe in Jesus now they become part of the church. For now there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6).

And the genetic Jews who will become believers at the 2nd coming will all become part of the church by receiving some measure of the Holy Spirit, who is "the spirit of grace and of supplications" in Zechariah 12:10 (Hebrews 10:29c, Romans 8:26), just as genetic Jewish believers today become part of the church by receiving some measure of the Holy Spirit. For it is by receiving some measure of the Holy Spirit that both genetic Jewish believers and genetic Gentile believers become part of the church (1 Corinthians 12:13).

Also, if the genetic Jews who will become saved at the 2nd coming had been religious Jews, they won't continue to mistakenly try to keep the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, because they will then be believers in the truth that on Jesus' Cross, for both Jews and Gentiles (John 11:51-52), of all times, the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law was completely and forever abolished (Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18), disannulled (Hebrews 7:18), rendered obsolete (Hebrews 8:13, Galatians 3:2-25, Galatians 4:21 to 5:8), taken away and replaced (Hebrews 10:9) by the better hope (Hebrews 7:19), the better covenant (Hebrews 7:22, Hebrews 8:6-12), the 2nd covenant (Hebrews 8:7, Hebrews 10:9), of Jesus' New Covenant law (Galatians 6:2, John 1:17, Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 12:24, Hebrews 9:15), so that the law was changed (Hebrews 7:12).

All believers, both Jews and Gentles, of all times, are delivered from the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, and shouldn't keep it (Romans 7:6; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18, Galatians 2:11-21), or have any desire to keep it (Galatians 4:21 to 5:8, Galatians 3:2-25). Believers keep the spirit of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Romans 7:6) by loving others (Galatians 5:14, Romans 13:8-10), by doing to others as they would have others do to them (Matthew 7:12).

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Also, the fullness of the Gentiles coming in during the tribulation doesn't mean that no Gentiles will be added to the church during the subsequent millennium, because they will be (Isaiah 66:19-20). For "fullness" doesn't have to mean "no more after that". For example, even after a cup has been filled with wine, more wine can be added to it, so that the "cup runneth over" (Psalms 23:5b). Also, it doesn't matter that the new believers during the millennium will be added to the church/bride (cf. Ephesians 4:4-6, Ephesians 5:30-32) after the marriage occurred at the 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7). For as many husbands have discovered, a bride can increase in size sometime after her wedding.

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ac28 said in post 113:

This didn't happen.

Matthew 17:12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.

Actually, it did, with the martyrdom of John the Baptist (Matthew 17:13, Matthew 14:10), and the subsequent martyrdom of Jesus (the Son of man).
 
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stephen583 said in post 108:

In Revelation 17:12 End Time Bible prophecy speaks of ten kings who receive power with the beast for "ONE HOUR". It seems unrealistic to maintain this passage refers to a "literal" hour of sixty minutes the way we reckon time.

That's right, for in Revelation 17:12 the original Greek word (hora: G5610) translated as "hour" can refer to any period of "time". For example, the last "hora" (Greek) or "time" (KJV) of 1 John 2:18 has been going on for the last 2,000 years. In the case of Revelation 17:12, it is referring to the (never fulfilled) time of the literal 42-month worldwide reign of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:4-18).

For all 10 kings will "receive power as kings one hour with the beast" (Revelation 17:12). That is, all 10 will receive power at the same time, and only when the (never fulfilled) Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) will receive power for a literal 42 months (Revelation 13:4-18).

The 10 kings/horns of the beast in its Antichrist's-empire aspect (Revelation 17:3,12, Revelation 13:1) could be 10 men whom the Antichrist will appoint as kings over 10 major nations, which nations could be the 10 horns in Daniel 7:24. For in Daniel 7, the first 3 beasts (Daniel 7:3-6) represent the ancient empires of Babylon (lion), Medo-Persia (bear), and Greece (leopard). The 4th beast, or 4th "king"/"kingdom" (Daniel 7:17,23), represents the ancient Roman empire. The 10 horns/kings which come out of it (Daniel 7:7,24) could represent 10 major kingdoms/nations today which came out the former territory of the Roman empire, which consisted not only of Western Europe, but also the Middle East and North Africa. These 10 nations could be Germany, the U.K., France, Italy, Spain, Turkey, Egypt, Iraq, Algeria, and Syria.

The 10 part-iron/part-clay toes of Daniel 2:42 could represent the same thing as the 10 horns of Daniel 7:7. The Europeans could be the iron, and the Arabs and Turks could be the clay. In Daniel 2:43, the inability of the iron to mix with the clay could represent how, for example, there are many Turks living in Germany, but they remain separated in ghettoes within German cities. Similarly, there are many Arab Algerians living in France, but they remain separated in ghettoes within French cities.

But despite this social separation, which could endure indefinitely, the people of Western Europe on the one hand and the people of the Middle East and North Africa on the other could still one day put aside their political separation and become united into one federation. For Daniel 2:42 refers to the 10 as a singular "kingdom". The person who brings this about could be the Antichrist. The arising of the "little" horn (Daniel 7:8, Daniel 8:9), which is "diverse" from the 10 major nations (Daniel 7:24), could mean that the Antichrist will arise from a little country.

And the little horn arising from "among" the 10 major nations (Daniel 7:8) could mean that the Antichrist's country's territory used to be part of the Roman empire. And before that, it was part of one of the 4 Diadochian Greek kingdoms which succeeded the Greek empire of Alexander the Great (Daniel 8:8-9,21-25). The territory of these 4 kingdoms stretched from Greece over to Iran, and down into Egypt. So the Antichrist could come from the Middle East. He could be an Arab who will come from the little country of Lebanon, from the modern city of Tyre (Ezekiel 28:2; 2 Thessalonians 2:4).

The Antichrist could start out by claiming to be a Baathist. After becoming the leader of Lebanon, he could peacefully gain control of a Baathist federation of 3 of the 10 major nations (Daniel 7:24): Egypt, "toward the south" of Lebanon (Daniel 8:9), and Iraq and Syria, "toward the east" of Lebanon (Daniel 8:9). This federation could also include the minor nation of a United Palestine, i.e. a defeated Israel, "the pleasant land" (Daniel 8:9).

This Baathist federation could be put together in the future by an Iraqi Baathist General who could completely defeat and occupy Israel and Egypt with a huge Iraqi Army (Daniel 11:15-17; in verse 17 the original Hebrew word translated as "daughter" is "bath"), but who could then mysteriously disappear (Daniel 11:19) shortly before the Antichrist arises on the world stage (Daniel 11:21-45). Years later, when the Antichrist gains control of all 10 of the major nations, he could appoint kings over them (Revelation 17:12) who will defer to him (Revelation 17:13), like when Napoleon gained control of different nations, he appointed kings over them who would defer to him.
 
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John the Baptist restored nothing. He fulfilled everything in prophecy but restoration - the main thing. He was actually Elijah,


That's absolute unbiblical nonsense. John the Baptist was not the prophet Elijah in the flesh. Christianity does not recognize the idea of "reincarnation". When the Pharisees and the Levites asked John the Baptist whether of not he was Elijah, John replied "No, I am not", (John 1:21). Naturally the answer was no, because John the Baptist only came in the "spirit" of Elijah, not as Elijah himself. This biblical fact is repeated variously in several places in the Bible, including the Book of Zachariah and Luke 1:17. That answers one of the "seeming" contradictions in the Bible, as Jesus Christ clearly indicates John the Baptist was Elijah and he had fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah, (Matthew 17:11, Mark 9:12).

As for your assertion John the Baptist did not fully "restore all things" that is totally an absurd and unbiblical argument. It's exactly the clever kind of lawyerly argument a modern day Pharisee would make. Matthew 17:12 and its' corresponding OT prophecies say nothing about everything "universally" being restored throughout all of Israel. John the Baptist reaffirmed peoples "spiritual" connection to God through water baptism. He even baptized Jesus in order that prophecy would be fulfilled. Asserting John the Baptist didn't "restore" anything is patently absurd. John the Baptist clearly indicates Jesus Christ, the Messiah will finish what he has begun in the spirit of Elijah. Have you even bothered to read the Bible ?

I'm not surprised to hear you reject "mainstream" Christian theology. You're obviously trying to "Judaize" the New Testament, and in order to accomplish that, you have to literally "butcher" the Word of God. You have to first discredit John the Baptist, then Jesus and everything the Apostles teach. Basically you want to rip the entire New Testament out of the Bible and start from scratch.
 
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Why hasn't Christ returned yet? Prophecies regarding the return of Christ remain unfulfilled; indeed, some of them are downright confusing. It's nearly 2000 years later and obviously we've developed a lot of technology which makes it seem like man, not God, is in control. We've discovered that the world is a lot bigger than we thought in the 1st century, so any sort of universal coming (the sort prophesied in Scripture) must be of absolutely immense magnitude (like something on par with Noah's Flood). Thoughts?

All has not been fulfilled, because it has not yet been the right time for it. I believe it is because there still are people that can be saved. The end of this world time will come when these are done:

This gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world for a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.
Matt. 24:14

For I don't desire, brothers, [The word for "brothers" here and where context allows may also be correctly translated "brothers and sisters" or "siblings."] to have you ignorant of this mystery, so that you won't be wise in your own conceits, that a partial hardening has happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in,
Romans 11:25
 
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