Why hasn't Christ returned yet?

[vinsight4u]

/

 

[SnowyMacie]

Sounds like the Lutheran dismissal of Revelation.

This isn't the Lutheran dismissal of Revelation, that is how all of Christiandom for the first 1900 years of the church, and the vast majority of church outside of American Evangelical Protestantism view Revelation to this day.

I say; if one has read Genesis through Jude and does not have a firm grasp of the concept that despite the suffering in the world, God is in control then there is no point in reading Revelation because you are deaf.

This is one of the reasons why now the message of Revelation has become lost so easily. This is not how the Bible was written, Revelation was written to 7 churches in the province of Asia facing tremendous persecution, Romans written to Romans, etc. We are not the direct audience of Revelation, or any book in scripture, but that does not mean they have no meaning to us, it means that we need to look at what who it was written to and what was going on to understand what Paul, John, or whoever was saying. It's true that the end of Revelation mirrors Genesis 1, but that's done intentionally by John, as a literary tool, he had no idea when he wrote the book that it would happen to close out the Bible.

If you want a more accurate synopsis of Revelation start by reading what Jesus said to introduce the book and with what words he concluded it.

Rev 1:3 Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.

Rev 22:7 “Look, I am coming soon! Blessed is the one who keeps the words of the prophecy written in this scroll.”

10 Then he told me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this scroll, because the time is near.

12 “Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done.

20 He who testifies to these things says, “Yes, I am coming soon.”​

Jesus can't be more clear than in verse 20.

None of that changes what Revelation is about. The key to understanding Revelation is knowing that it's written in apocalyptic literature and is not meant to be taken literally.

The book of Revelation is not the sum of end times prophecies. I had been going round and round with Crypto on the Olivet Discourse. The reason why I keep going back to it is because Jesus is quite clear in calling these prophesies to be signs of the end. I now ask you to think what a sign is. If traffic signs were hidden in bushes and ignored by drivers, would that serve any purpose at all? You might as well do without them.

The signs will point to Christ, but for the most part it will come without any warning.

This essence of this message doesn't really help Christians to prepare for the time of the Tribulation, though. Every Christian hearing that synopsis will be happy but insufficiently prepared. They could assume all Christians will overcome with Jesus. But many who consider themselves Christians will fall away because of deception or tribulation (Matthew 24:4-5, Matthew 24:9-13, Matthew 24:23-26).

"In the end, God wins" is true for God, but that wasn't God's point in writing it (see Revelation 1:1) and so it's pointless to summarize Revelation that way. He wrote it to tell His servants the things that will soon take place so we won't be blindsided.

Knowing that Christians will be killed because they do not take the mark of the beast (needed to buy and sell) is important. We should expect hunger and being slain for our faith, should we enter the Tribulation. (We can't expect to be one of the 144,000 sealed for protection from the trumpet/bowl plagues). Knowing the plagues will also help us identify and track the progress of the Tribulation. Knowing there's an end in sight will help, and seeing the fulfillments will encourage us in a way, because God is faithful to His Word. If my understanding of Daniel 9 and 13 (together with Revelation 13) is correct, the entire Tribulation is only seven years, but the last three and a half years are when the Antichrist (beast of the sea, I believe) has set up the abomination that causes desolation and when the False Prophet (beast of the earth) enforces the mark of the beast (and kills the Christians, who refuse it).

You are assuming that the Tribulation is going to happen. I have good news, the Tribulation is not going to happen. The "mark of the beast" is talking about Roman currency, the 144,000 is talking about all of the saved, the Beast in Revelation is the Emperor Nero. We know this because when you read Revelation in the style of literature it was written, this becomes very clear. It's written in apocalyptic literature, a heavily symbolic genre of Jewish writing that uses numbers, it's used in the prophets, including Daniel, and by Jesus. Let me break down the 144000 first, the number 12 represents governmental perfection or Israel or God's people the 12 apostles, the number 1000 means "fullness of "quantity", so 144000 would be the "all of the apostles of God." Here's how we know the beast is Nero, in Hebrew and Greek Gematria (assigning a numerical value to a word or letter), it's each letter. If you take Nero's Greek name and transliterate it into Hebrew it becomes נרון קסר, which has a numeric value of 666, however if you take Nero's Latin name and transliterate it into Hebrew it becomes נרו קסר, which has a numeric value of 616, which we have found in some manuscripts of Revelation. Plus, if you break down the characteristics of the beast in a symbolic nature of what is occurring when John wrote it, it matches up identically to Nero, which is almost blatantly explained in Rev 17 "The seven heads are seven hills (Rome was known as the city of Seven Hills) on which the woman sits. They are also seven kings. Five have fallen (The first five Roman Emperors), one is (Nero, the sixth Roman Emperor), the other has not yet come; but when he does come, he must remain for only a little while (Galba, predecessor of Nero who only had a short reign). The Beast speaks blaspemy's against God (Nero was arguably the biggest on emperor worship and inscriptions in other places have referred to him as "Almighty God"), he makes war against the Saints (Nero was also the biggest and first to widely persecute Christian, and did so for 42 months, which is what Revelation 13:5 says), he kills himself with a sword as referenced in verse 10, and the reference to it being later healed in 13 & 14 is in reference to the Nero revival myth.

Revelation is not a roadmap of what is going to happen, and the Bible is not a puzzle to piece together to understand the End Times. How people have interpreted Revelation is something that John, in his wildest dreams could not have imagined.

 

[vinsight4u]

/

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Bible2+ said: ↑
And Mark 13:20 can mean that all flesh on the earth would die if the Lord hadn't already shortened, as in "he hath shortened" (Mark 13:20b), the number of days of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18, Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21.

Jesus shortened the days, but not necessarily the number of days. Perhaps He will shorten the hours of sunlight, like as suggested in the 4th trumpet:.............

According to Josephus, the destruction of Jerusalem in ad70 took about 5 months.
5 months is also mentioned in Revelation 9 and also the amount of time the flood covered the earth in Gene 7. A lot of Christians believe Revelation is showing that destruction or our faith would be in vain

http://www.bible.ca/pre-destruction70AD-george-holford-1805AD.htm
The Destruction Of JERUSALEM
An Absolute and Irresistible PROOF OF THE DIVINE ORIGIN OF CHRISTIANITY:

..............The day on which Titus encompassed Jerusalem, was the feast of the Passover ; and it is deserving of the very particular attention of the reader, that this was the anniversary of that memorable period in which the Jews crucified their Messiah ! At this season multitudes came up from all the surrounding country, and from distant parts, to keep the festival....................

As it drew towards evening, the soldiers exchanged the sword for the torch, and, amidst the darkness of this awful night, set fire to the remaining divisions of the place. The vial of divine wrath, which had been so long pouring out upon this devoted city was now emptying, and JERUSALEM, once "a praise in all the earth," and the subject of a thousand prophecies, deprived of' the staff of life, wrapt in flames, and bleeding on every side sunk into utter ruin and desolation.

Before their final demolition, however, Titus took, a. survey of the city and its fortifications ; and while contemplating their impregnable strength, could not help ascribing his success to the peculiar interposition of the ALMIGHTY HIMSELF. "Had not God himself (exclaimed he) aided out operations, and driven the Jews from their fortresses, it would have been absolutely impossible to have taken them ; for what could men, and the force of engines, have done against such towers as these ?"
After this he commanded that the city should be commanded razed to its foundations, excepting only the three lofty towers Hippocos, Phasael, and Mariamne, which he suffered to remain as evidences of its strength, and as trophies of his victory.

This memorable siege terminated on the eighth day of the ninth month, A. D. 70 : its duration was nearly five months, the Romans having invested the City on the fourteenth day of the fourth month, preceeding.

Reve 9:
3 And out of the smoke came-out locusts into the land, and was given to them authority, as are having authority the scorpions of the land,
5 And was given to them that not they should be killing them, but that they should be being tormented five months. And the torment of them as torment of a scorpion/skorpiou <4651>, whenever it should be striking a man;

Genesis 7:
23 So He destroyed all living things which were on the face of the ground: both man and cattle, creeping thing and bird of the air. They were destroyed from the earth.
Only Noah and those who [were] with him in the ark remained [alive.]
24 And the waters prevailed on the earth one hundred and fifty days



.

 

[Luke17:37]

This isn't the Lutheran dismissal of Revelation, that is how all of Christiandom for the first 1900 years of the church, and the vast majority of church outside of American Evangelical Protestantism view Revelation to this day.

Whatever you want to call it, and no matter how many people have held, I consider your view (as follows) amounts to a dismissal of Revelation.

This is one of the reasons why now the message of Revelation has become lost so easily. This is not how the Bible was written, Revelation was written to 7 churches in the province of Asia facing tremendous persecution, Romans written to Romans, etc. We are not the direct audience of Revelation, or any book in scripture, but that does not mean they have no meaning to us, it means that we need to look at what who it was written to and what was going on to understand what Paul, John, or whoever was saying. It's true that the end of Revelation mirrors Genesis 1, but that's done intentionally by John, as a literary tool, he had no idea when he wrote the book that it would happen to close out the Bible.

First off, John wrote by inspiration of the Holy Spirit, as all the men did whose hands God used to pen the Scriptures (2 Timothy 3:16).

We are the direct audience, although not the first audience. Scripture is timeless. And Revelation 1:1 says it is the revelation of Jesus Christ to show His servants what must soon take place. If you're His servant, it was written for you.

The message of Revelation or any other Scripture hasn't been lost (Matthew 5:18).

None of that changes what Revelation is about. The key to understanding Revelation is knowing that it's written in apocalyptic literature and is not meant to be taken literally.

I don't believe that's true at all. I think most of it is pretty literal, and the symbolic stuff is obvious (for example, the beast with seven heads and ten horns - the seven heads and ten horns stand for something literal).

The signs will point to Christ, but for the most part it will come without any warning.

That's not true for people with their eyes open (Hebrews 10:25, 1 Thessalonians 5:4-10). But of course the wicked won't understand.

You are assuming that the Tribulation is going to happen. I have good news, the Tribulation is not going to happen. The "mark of the beast" is talking about Roman currency, the 144,000 is talking about all of the saved, the Beast in Revelation is the Emperor Nero. We know this because when you read Revelation in the style of literature it was written, this becomes very clear. It's written in apocalyptic literature, a heavily symbolic genre of Jewish writing that uses numbers, it's used in the prophets, including Daniel, and by Jesus.

I don't believe that for a minute. Jesus said the Tribulation is going to happen and He's not a liar (Matthew 24:21-31). Jesus didn't come back to the first generation (Matthew 24:34), therefore it's still future.

Revelation is not a roadmap of what is going to happen, and the Bible is not a puzzle to piece together to understand the End Times. How people have interpreted Revelation is something that John, in his wildest dreams could not have imagined.

I don't agree with you at all. I believe it will happen in a pretty straightforward way, and many will be deceived and many fall away because they don't believe the Scriptures (2 Peter 3:3-9), they are ignorant of the Scriptures (Hosea 4:6), they prefer lies (2 Thessalonians 2:11-12), and they weren't expecting persecution (Matthew 24:9-10), etc.

 

[Luke17:37]

According to Josephus, the destruction of Jerusalem in ad70 took about 5 months.
5 months is also mentioned in Revelation 9 and also the amount of time the flood covered the earth in Gene 7. A lot of Christians believe Revelation is showing that destruction or our faith would be in vain

http://www.bible.ca/pre-destruction70AD-george-holford-1805AD.htm
The Destruction Of JERUSALEM
An Absolute and Irresistible PROOF OF THE DIVINE ORIGIN OF CHRISTIANITY:

..............The day on which Titus encompassed Jerusalem, was the feast of the Passover ; and it is deserving of the very particular attention of the reader, that this was the anniversary of that memorable period in which the Jews crucified their Messiah ! At this season multitudes came up from all the surrounding country, and from distant parts, to keep the festival....................

As it drew towards evening, the soldiers exchanged the sword for the torch, and, amidst the darkness of this awful night, set fire to the remaining divisions of the place. The vial of divine wrath, which had been so long pouring out upon this devoted city was now emptying, and JERUSALEM, once "a praise in all the earth," and the subject of a thousand prophecies, deprived of' the staff of life, wrapt in flames, and bleeding on every side sunk into utter ruin and desolation.

Before their final demolition, however, Titus took, a. survey of the city and its fortifications ; and while contemplating their impregnable strength, could not help ascribing his success to the peculiar interposition of the ALMIGHTY HIMSELF. "Had not God himself (exclaimed he) aided out operations, and driven the Jews from their fortresses, it would have been absolutely impossible to have taken them ; for what could men, and the force of engines, have done against such towers as these ?"
After this he commanded that the city should be commanded razed to its foundations, excepting only the three lofty towers Hippocos, Phasael, and Mariamne, which he suffered to remain as evidences of its strength, and as trophies of his victory.

This memorable siege terminated on the eighth day of the ninth month, A. D. 70 : its duration was nearly five months, the Romans having invested the City on the fourteenth day of the fourth month, preceeding.

Reve 9:
3 And out of the smoke came-out locusts into the land, and was given to them authority, as are having authority the scorpions of the land,
5 And was given to them that not they should be killing them, but that they should be being tormented five months. And the torment of them as torment of a scorpion/skorpiou <4651>, whenever it should be striking a man;

Genesis 7:
23 So He destroyed all living things which were on the face of the ground: both man and cattle, creeping thing and bird of the air. They were destroyed from the earth.
Only Noah and those who [were] with him in the ark remained [alive.]
24 And the waters prevailed on the earth one hundred and fifty days



.

Jesus didn't return to that generation though, so the Tribulation He referred to hasn't come (Matthew 24:34).

 

[SnowyMacie]

Whatever you want to call it, and no matter how many people have held, I consider your view (as follows) amounts to a dismissal of Revelation.

If you want to see it as a dismissal of Revelation, that's entirely your opinion.

First off, John wrote by inspiration of the Holy Spirit, as all the men did whose hands God used to pen the Scriptures (2 Timothy 3:16).

2 Timothy 3:16 has nothing to do with my point about the audience of scripture. I never once said Revelation was useless for teaching nor doubted it's inspiration.

We are the direct audience, although not the first audience. Scripture is timeless. And Revelation 1:1 says it is the revelation of Jesus Christ to show His servants what must soon take place. If you're His servant, it was written for you.

I guess we have different definitions of "direct audience". I agree that scripture is timeless, my point is that we can't accurately understand it if we don't pay attention to the context in which it was written.

I don't believe that's true at all. I think most of it is pretty literal, and the symbolic stuff is obvious (for example, the beast with seven heads and ten horns - the seven heads and ten horns stand for something literal).

It's not literal, there's no other way I can explain it. From chapter 4 on, it's all in symbolic writing. The beast having seven heads and ten horns can't be symbolic and the plagues from the trumpets literal.

I don't believe that for a minute. Jesus said the Tribulation is going to happen and He's not a liar (Matthew 24:21-31). Jesus didn't come back to the first generation (Matthew 24:34), therefore it's still future.

Matthew 24 and Revelation are two completely independent prophesies talking about two completely different things. Matthew 24 is about the destruction of the temple in AD 70 and Israel, Revelation is about Rome.

I don't agree with you at all. I believe it will happen in a pretty straightforward way, and many will be deceived and many fall away because they don't believe the Scriptures (2 Peter 3:3-9), they are ignorant of the Scriptures (Hosea 4:6), they prefer lies (2 Thessalonians 2:11-12), and they weren't expecting persecution (Matthew 24:9-10), etc.

I don't see your theology on the end times as straightforward in any way whatsoever. I see it making connections simply not found in the text, misunderstanding the nature of Biblical prophesy and apocalyptic literature, grossly misinterpreting about every text it does use, it finds aspects of the second coming simply not found in scripture (pretribulation), it imposes modern interpretive constructs onto the text, it assumes we're on the brink and that's all that matters, it's inherently escapist, it produces an unhealthy occupation with nature surrounding Christ's second coming, it's inherently militaristic, it's uncritically pro-West, I could go, but I'll stop there.

 

[Bible2+]

TX_Matt said in post 82:

Revelation was written to 7 churches in the province of Asia facing tremendous persecution, Romans written to Romans, etc.

That's right (Revelation 1:4,11).

And so Revelation isn't (as is sometimes claimed) relevant only to the final generation.

For just as Jesus' 2nd coming in Revelation 19:7 to 20:3 has always been relevant to Christians despite the fact it has never been fulfilled, but will be fulfilled almost entirely literally in our future, so the highly-detailed and chronological events of the preceding tribulation in Revelation chapters 6 to 18, and the subsequent millennium and other events in Revelation chapters 20 to 22, have always been relevant to Christians despite the fact they have never been fulfilled, but will be fulfilled almost entirely literally in our future.

To put it another way, the future fulfillment of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, before Jesus returns immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), should be relevant to every Christian regardless of whether or not he thinks he will still be alive to go through it, just as, for example, the past fulfillment of Genesis chapters 1 to 11 should be relevant to every Christian regardless of him not being alive at that time to experience it. For all scripture regarding all times is profitable to all Christians in all times (2 Timothy 3:16).

TX_Matt said in post 82:

Revelation was written to 7 churches in the province of Asia facing tremendous persecution, Romans written to Romans, etc.

Some people say that this means that all of Revelation had to have been fulfilled soon after the book was sent to the 7 churches.

But in Revelation 1:1,3, as in Revelation 22:6,10, "shortly" and "at hand" can be understood in the same manner as "Surely I come quickly" in Revelation 22:20, which refers to Jesus' still-unfulfilled 2nd coming. I.e., shortly/at hand/quickly in these verses can be understood from the viewpoint of God, not men (2 Peter 3:8-9).

Also, from the viewpoint of men, part of what Revelation chapters 2-3 foretold could have begun unfolding "shortly" (Revelation 1:1,3) after John saw his Revelation vision. For the letters to the 7 literal, 1st century AD local church congregations (Revelation chapters 2-3) in 7 cities in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11b) could have foretold a 1st century persecution (Revelation 2:10, Revelation 3:10) under the Roman Emperor Domitian which happened shortly after John saw his vision around 95 AD, near the end of Domitian's reign (Irenaeus, Against Heresies 5:30:3c). But even all the (to us) still-future events of the tribulation and subsequent 2nd coming of Revelation chapters 6 to 19 will unfold "shortly" (Revelation 1:1,3) or "quickly" (Revelation 22:20) after John saw his vision. For from the viewpoint of God, even the passing of some 2,000 years is like the passing of only 2 days (2 Peter 3:8). Christians should look at the future fulfillment of Revelation chapters 6 to 19 (and Matthew 24) from the viewpoint of God, not men, for whom the passing of some 2,000 years seems like a long delay for its fulfillment (2 Peter 3:9).

Other books in the Bible contain prophecies of events which wouldn't occur for 3,000 to 4,000 years. For example, Ezekiel prophesied of the Gog/Magog event (Ezekiel chapters 38-39, Revelation 20:8-9) some 3,600 years before its (still future) occurrence. For Ezekiel gave that prophecy some 600 years before Jesus' 1st coming, but it won't be fulfilled until some 1,000 years after Jesus' (still future) 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:10). Also, God prophesied Jesus' spiritual defeat of Satan at the Crucifixion (Genesis 3:15, Hebrews 2:14) some 4,000 years before its occurrence. And Isaiah prophesied God creating a new heaven and earth (Isaiah 66:22, Revelation 21:1-8) some 3,700 years before its (still future) occurrence. For Isaiah gave that prophecy some 700 years before Jesus' 1st coming, but it won't be fulfilled until some 1,000 years after his 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 21:8).

TX_Matt said in post 82:

The key to understanding Revelation is knowing that it's written in apocalyptic literature and is not meant to be taken literally.

Regarding what some call "the apocalyptic genre", note that Revelation itself, as a whole, can be almost entirely literal, because, as scripture, it is not bound by any man-made ideas regarding any made-made categories for writings in general. Revelation, like other scripture, was written by the inspiration of God (2 Timothy 3:16), meaning that it wasn't written by the will of man, but written by a holy man as he was moved by the Holy Spirit to write it (cf. 2 Peter 1:21), so that the words of Revelation are what the Holy Spirit himself spoke (cf. Acts 1:16, Acts 28:25b). And nothing about these words requires that Revelation can't be almost entirely literal.

Indeed, Revelation is almost entirely literal, for it is unsealed (Revelation 22:10), meaning that it shouldn't be difficult for saved people of any time to understand it if they simply read it as it is written: chronologically and almost-entirely literally. The few parts of it that are symbolic are almost always explained afterward (e.g. Revelation 1:20, Revelation 17:9-12). And Revelation's few symbols not explained afterward (e.g. Revelation 13:2) are usually explained elsewhere in the Bible (e.g. Daniel 7:4-7,17).

Just as Jesus' 2nd coming in Revelation 19:7 to 20:3 will be fulfilled almost entirely literally, so the events of the preceding tribulation in Revelation chapters 6 to 18 will be fulfilled almost entirely literally. Also, the millennium in Revelation 20 will be literal, and will begin after Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Zechariah 14:3-21), when he will reign on the earth with the physically resurrected church for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 66:3-4, Psalms 72:8-11). After that, the events of Revelation 20:7 to 22:5 will occur literally.

TX_Matt said in post 82:

The "mark of the beast" is talking about Roman currency . . .

Actually, the "mark of the beast" (Revelation 13:16-17, Revelation 16:2) will be a physical mark which will placed on people's bodies, probably by scarification. For in Revelation 13:16, one of the definitions of the original Greek word (charagma: G5480) translated as the "mark" is "a scratch or etching" (Strong's Greek Dictionary), and scarification is the scratching or etching (i.e. the cutting) of the skin to leave a permanent mark. The reason that people will be given the mark in Revelation 13:16, in the context of what had just been shown previously in Revelation 13:4,8,15, will be to serve as a visible indicator to other people that they are loyal worshippers of Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) (Revelation 13:4, Revelation 12:9) and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) and his image (Revelation 13:4,8,15), just as some Luciferians today put a mark on themselves by scarification.

The mark will consist of only the Antichrist's name "or" some representation of the gematrial number of his name (666) (Revelation 13:17-18), meaning that the mark will be the Antichrist's name for some people and a representation of the gematrial number of his name for other people. And the mark will be placed only on the right hand (probably on the palm) "or" on the forehead (Revelation 13:16), meaning that it will be placed on the right hand of some people and on the forehead of other people.

Those who refuse to receive the Antichrist's mark won't be allowed to buy or sell anything (Revelation 13:17), and they will be executed by being beheaded if they refuse to worship the Antichrist and his image (Revelation 13:15, Revelation 20:4). Christians must be willing to suffer this fate rather than agree to receive the Antichrist's mark or worship him or his image, for those people who agree to do these things, even if they are Christians, will suffer God's wrath in fire and brimstone forever (Revelation 14:9-13), while those Christians who refuse to do these things, even though they will be beheaded, will subsequently be physically resurrected into immortality (along with the rest of the obedient church of all times) at Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 20:4-6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52-58), immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31). And even before their resurrection, at the moment of their death, their still-conscious souls will be brought into the presence of Jesus in heaven (cf. 2 Corinthians 5:8, Philippians 1:21,23, Revelation 6:9-10, Luke 23:43,46).

In the future, when the world begins to worship the Antichrist as God (Revelation 13:8; 2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36), some people could gladly be willing to have his name placed by scarification on their right palm, just as lovers in the past were sometimes known to have their loved ones' initials placed by scarification on their palm (cf. also Isaiah 49:16, Jeremiah 48:37, Leviticus 19:28, Leviticus 21:5). Other of the Antichrist's worshippers could gladly be willing to have his name placed by scarification on their forehead, thinking (mistakenly) that they are fulfilling the Christian idea of Revelation 22:4, which refers to the future point in time when Jesus will put God's name visibly on the forehead of obedient Christians (Revelation 3:12). The Antichrist's miracle-working False Prophet, who will be the one to cause everyone to be marked with the Antichrist's mark (Revelation 13:16-18), could even convince people that he (the False Prophet) is Jesus returned. (But he won't say that he is Christ, for he and the Antichrist will deny that Jesus is the Christ, and will deny that Christ is in the flesh: 1 John 2:22; 2 John 1:7.)

Instead of having the Antichrist's name engraved on their right hand or forehead, some of his worshippers will have the gematrial number of his name (666) (Revelation 13:17c-18) engraved on their right hand or forehead. But because some people could refuse to have "666" placed on their body, in order to make a mark of 666 acceptable to all people, it could be disguised to look like something else in those cases where people demand something other than "666". For example, it could be disguised in some cases to look like "777", or "111", or "WWW", or "VVV", or "|| || ||", or "FFF". For the 6th letter of the ancient Hebrew alphabet (Vav) represents the number 6, but it looks like a "7", or a "1", and it is transliterated into English as either a "W" or a "V". Also, 2 thin vertical lines "||" represent the number 6 on many UPC codes. And the letter "F" has a numerical value of 6 in English gematria.

In an awful coincidence (or maybe it is not just a coincidence), "FFF" also stands for an extremely powerful type of nuclear bomb: Fission-Fusion-Fission. Could this be the type of bomb which the 10 kings of the Antichrist's empire will employ to burn up the cities of the nations at the end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Revelation 17:12,16-17a, Revelation 16:19, Revelation 19:2,11)?

The "WWW" which has been placed on many internet addresses, and the "|| || ||" which has been placed across many UPC codes on products (i.e. they have a "||" at the beginning, middle, and end of their UPC codes), are harbingers of when Lucifer will give the Antichrist ownership of everything on the earth (Revelation 13:2b; cf. Luke 4:7), and of the Antichrist placing his "brand" on everything, like how a rancher places his "brand" on all his cattle. For both "WWW" and "|| || ||" are disguised representations of the gematrial number of the Antichrist's name: 666 (Revelation 13:17c-18). But Revelation 13:16 isn't fulfilled by some internet addresses having a "WWW", nor by some products having "|| || ||" on their UPC codes. For Revelation 13:16 refers only to when people will be given the Antichrist's mark, on either their right hand or forehead.

Those assigned to have the mark placed on their forehead (instead of on their right hand) (Revelation 13:16) could be an elite, illumined, cognoscenti class of Gnostic Luciferians who alone will have been given knowledge of the ultimate secrets of the Antichrist's Gnostic Luciferianism. The Antichrist will be both a Luciferian, a worshipper of Lucifer/Satan the dragon (Revelation 13:4, Revelation 12:9), and a Gnostic, someone who denies that Christ is in the flesh (1 John 4:3), and forbids marriage and the eating of meat (1 Timothy 4:1-3). The cream of his cognoscenti could be a faux 144,000, consisting of male virgins (as a counterfeit of Revelation 14:4) who have never eaten meat. If they receive on their forehead the mark of the Antichrist's name (instead of a representation of the number of his name) (Revelation 13:17), this will be as a counterfeit of YHWH's 144,000 in Revelation 14:1. But the Antichrist won't pretend that he is YHWH, just as he won't pretend that he is Christ. Instead, as a Gnostic, he will utterly revile YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36). And his Gnostic denial that Christ is in the flesh (1 John 4:3) will disqualify him (under his mistaken Gnostic doctrine) from being Christ.

TX_Matt said in post 82:

. . . the Beast in Revelation is the Emperor Nero.

Note that Nero didn't fulfill the detailed references to the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) in Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 16:2-16, Revelation 19:19-21, and Revelation 20:4. Also, Nero didn't fulfill other prophecies regarding the Antichrist (e.g. 2 Thessalonians 2:3-9, Daniel 11:31,36; cf. Matthew 24:15). And John the apostle didn't see the vision of Revelation until decades after the time of Nero. For Irenaeus (born c. 140 AD) said: "We will not, however, incur the risk of pronouncing positively as to the name of Antichrist; for if it were necessary that his name should be distinctly revealed in this present time, it would have been announced by him [John] who beheld the apocalyptic vision [Revelation]. For that was seen no very long time since, but almost in our day, towards the end of Domitian's reign" (Against Heresies 5:30:3c). The end of Domitian's reign was 96 AD. Nero's reign was 54-68 AD. The detailed prophecies regarding the Antichrist, just as the rest of the tribulation prophecies of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, have never been fulfilled.

Any mistaken teaching which claims that the Antichrist has already come and gone could be employed in our future by the real Antichrist to fool some Christians into thinking that he isn't the Antichrist.

TX_Matt said in post 82:

If you take Nero's Greek name and transliterate it into Hebrew it becomes [a Hebrew name], which has a numeric value of 666 . . .

Regarding the claim that Nero's name in Hebrew gematria added up to 666 (Revelation 13:17c-18), is there an ancient historical source which shows how "Nero Caesar" was usually transliterated into Hebrew at the time that Revelation was written, so we can confirm whether or not the usual Hebrew transliteration of "Nero Caesar" added up to 666 in Hebrew gematria, instead of an intentionally-altered Hebrew spelling? For example, why was an "n" added after "Nero", to make "Neron"; and why was the "ae" of "Caesar" skipped to make "Csar", when, for example, the "ae" in "Israel" gets at least an "aleph" in Hebrew? Could "Neron Csar" in fact be an intentionally-altered, never-actually-used spelling which adds up to 666, just as people today could intentionally mistransliterate into Hebrew the name of someone living today, so that the mistransliterated name adds up to 666 in Hebrew gematria? Also, just by chance there could be more than one person in the world whose name adds up to 666. So even if it could be proven that the usual Hebrew spelling of "Nero Caesar" added up to 666, or that the usual spelling of the name of someone living today adds up to 666, this doesn't require that that person is the Antichrist.

Also, should we even assume that the Antichrist's name has to be transliterated into Hebrew for it to add up to 666? For Revelation was originally addressed to Greek-speaking Gentile churches in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11) (what is now western Turkey), not to Hebrew-speaking Jewish churches in Judaea. And John the apostle used 3 letters from the Greek alphabet to express the number 666 in Revelation 13:18 (in the original Greek Textus Receptus), not any letters from the Hebrew alphabet. (But this doesn't require that the Antichrist's name has to be transliterated into Greek in order for it to add up to 666, for John used the Greek alphabet only because it was the most common one used by the believers whom he was addressing at the time that Revelation was written.) Also, even when "Nero Caesar" (instead of "Neron Csar") is transliterated into Hebrew, it doesn't have to result in the name adding up to 666:

N - Nun = 50 (cf. the "Ne" in "Nebo" in the Hebrew of Num. 32:3: Nun for the "N" and nothing for the "e")
E /
R - Reysh = 200
O - Vav = 6 (cf. the "o" in "Nebo" in the Hebrew of Num. 32:3 being the letter Vav)

C - Qowph = 100 (cf. "Kareah" in the Hebrew of Jer. 40:8, & "Caesar" being "Kaisar" in the Greek of Mt. 22:17)
A - Aleph = 1 (cf. the "ae" in "Israel" in the Hebrew of Gen. 32:28: Aleph for the "a" and nothing for the "e")
E /
S - Samek = 60 (cf. the "sar" in "Ellasar" in the Hebrew of Gen. 14:1: Samek for the "s" & nothing for the "a")
A /
R - Reysh = 200

Total = 617

TX_Matt said in post 82:

. . . however if you take Nero's Latin name and transliterate it into Hebrew it becomes [a Hebrew name], which has a numeric value of 616, which we have found in some manuscripts of Revelation.

Any Revelation manuscript with 616 is incorrect, possibly altered by those who mistakenly thought that Nero had been the Antichrist. The true gematrial number of the Antichrist's name is 666 (Revelation 13:17c-18): Irenaeus (born c. 140 AD) said "this number [666] being found in all the most approved and ancient copies [of Revelation], and those men who saw John face to face bearing their testimony; while reason also leads us to conclude that the number of the name of the beast, according to the Greek mode of calculation by the [value of] the letters contained in it, will amount to six hundred and sixty and six" (Against Heresies 5:30:1). This mode of calculation, or method of gematria, is the same in the Greek alphabet, the Hebrew alphabet, the English alphabet, and any other alphabet: the first nine letters in the alphabet are 1 through 9, the next nine letters are 10 through 90 (counting by tens), and the rest of the letters are 100, 200, 300, etc., to the end of the alphabet.

*******

TX_Matt said in post 87:

The beast having seven heads and ten horns can't be symbolic and the plagues from the trumpets literal.

Actually, they can be. For note that the hermeneutics which futurism uses is the correct one: that in a single book of scripture, such as Revelation, some verses can be literal while others are symbolic, depending on their immediate context, and on any subsequent explanations (e.g. Revelation 1:20, Revelation 17:9-12), and on comparing the verses with other, related verses elsewhere in the Bible (Isaiah 28:9-10; 1 Corinthians 2:13), for example, comparing Revelation 13:2 and Daniel 7:4-7,17.

Also, note that even in a single verse; for example, Revelation 5:6: parts of the verse can be literal (God's throne in heaven, the 4 beasts, the 24 elders, Jesus having been slain, the 7 Spirits of God, the earth) and other parts of Revelation 5:6 can be symbolic (Jesus being a lamb, his having 7 horns, his having 7 eyes).

TX_Matt said in post 87:

Matthew 24 and Revelation are two completely independent prophesies talking about two completely different things.

Note that they can be referring to the same, future tribulation. For example, Matthew 24:7-8 could include the war (Revelation 6:4), famine (Revelation 6:6,8), epidemics (Revelation 6:8, where beasts could include disease-causing animals such as bacteria), and earthquake (Revelation 6:12) of only the 1st stage of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18.

But the tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 (as opposed to Matthew 24:7-8, which could also include other wars, famines, epidemics, and earthquakes preceding Revelation 6:4-8) hasn't started yet. For it will start with the horrible war (and its aftermath of famines and epidemics) of seals 2 to 4 (Revelation 6:4-8), which will end up killing 1/4 of the world (Revelation 6:8). The "great sword" of this war (Revelation 6:4) could be Israel's nuclear weapons.

TX_Matt said in post 87:

Matthew 24 is about the destruction of the temple in AD 70 and Israel, Revelation is about Rome.

Note that the end of the 2nd temple building (also called Herod's temple building) in 70 AD didn't fulfill Matthew 24:2. For the stones of the 2nd temple's Wailing Wall (also called the Western Wall) still stand today one on top of the other, just as they did when Jesus spoke that prophecy. Matthew 24:2 included the Wailing Wall, for Matthew 24:2 wasn't referring only to the single, 2nd temple building which stood in the center of the Temple Mount and which contained the holy place and the most holy place, but was referring to "all these things", all the plural "buildings"/structures/oikodome (G3619) of the entire 2nd temple complex (Matthew 24:1). Indeed, Matthew 24:2 could even have been spoken just to the north and west of the Wailing Wall. For it was spoken just after Jesus had departed from the temple complex (Matthew 24:1), and one of the main temple complex exits (called Wilson's Arch and bridge by archaeologists) was just to the north of the Wailing Wall, and at the same level as the top of the Temple Mount (see the temple-complex map-insert in the December, 2008 issue of National Geographic magazine).

Also, in Matthew 24:2, the "here" can include not just the entire 2nd temple complex, but every structure throughout Jerusalem. For the similar statement in Luke 19:44 applied to the whole city (Luke 19:41-44). Matthew 24:2 and Luke 19:44 could be fulfilled at the very end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, right before and at Jesus' 2nd coming (Zechariah 14:2-21, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

At the very end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, the Antichrist (Daniel 11:45) and the world's armies will pillage Jerusalem right before Jesus' 2nd coming (Zechariah 14:2-21). And at the 2nd coming, there will be tremendous earth changes in the vicinity of Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:4-5). These events could result in all of Jerusalem's structures, including the 3rd temple and the Wailing Wall (also called the Western Wall), being broken down so that not one stone will be left on another (Luke 19:44, Matthew 24:2). Then the returned Jesus (Zechariah 14:4, Acts 1:11-12) will rebuild Jerusalem and make it the capital of the world (Zechariah 14:8-19, Micah 4:1-4). He will also build a 4th temple there (Zechariah 14:20-21, Zechariah 6:12-13). It will serve a similar function for the church during the future millennium (of Revelation 20:4-6) as the 2nd temple served for the church in the 1st century AD (Luke 24:53, Acts 2:46, Acts 22:17), and as the temple building in heaven (Revelation 11:19) serves for those in heaven (Revelation 7:15).

 

[Bible2+]

LittleLambofJesus said in post 84:

According to Josephus, the destruction of Jerusalem in ad70 took about 5 months.
5 months is also mentioned in Revelation 9 and also the amount of time the flood covered the earth in Gene 7.

Regarding the idea of the tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 lasting only 5 months because of what Revelation 9:5,10 says, note that the 5 months there are the entire length of only the time of the 5th trumpet's strange locust-like beings stinging mankind (Revelation 9:1-11). This time won't even begin until after the events of the tribulation's 2nd through 7th seals and then the 1st through 4th trumpets have occurred in the order shown in Revelation 6:3 to 8:13.

Also, the time of the 5th trumpet will end sometime before the 6th trumpet's events of Revelation 9:13-21, which could occur before the 1,335 days in Daniel 12:11-12 begin at the mid-tribulation setting up of the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31,36, cf. 2 Thessalonians 2:4). This setting up of the abomination of desolation could occur at the start of the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign, which time period is shown from 4 different angles in Revelation chapters 11-14 (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5,7, Revelation 14:9-13).

LittleLambofJesus said in post 84:

5 months is also mentioned in Revelation 9 and also the amount of time the flood covered the earth in Gene 7.

Regarding the idea of the tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 lasting only 5 months because Noah's flood (supposedly) lasted 5 months, note that in Luke 17:26-30 and Matthew 24:37-39 the point of the comparison isn't that the tribulation will last the same amount of time as Noah's flood, but that just as unsaved people hadn't been expecting to be killed in Noah's flood (even though they could see or hear about Noah building his huge ark), but had continued eating and drinking without worry right up to the day of the flood, so unsaved people won't be expecting to be killed at Jesus' 2nd coming (even though they will have experienced the tribulation), but will continue eating and drinking without worry right up to the day of the 2nd coming (Matthew 24:37-39).

Also, Noah's flood lasted longer than 5 months. For the flood started "In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month" (Genesis 7:11), when it started raining for 40 days straight (Genesis 7:12). After that, the flood waters stayed on the earth at a very high level for 5 months (Genesis 7:24), when they receded just enough for Noah's ark to come to rest on (very high) Mount Ararat "in the seventh month, on the seventeenth day of the month" (Genesis 8:4). But the flood waters were still on the earth, and only gradually receded for about 3 more months: "And the waters decreased continually until the tenth month: in the tenth month, on the first day of the month, were the tops of the mountains seen" (Genesis 8:5). But only their tops, so that Noah had to stay in the ark even longer, until the flood waters had completely receded: "in the second month, on the seven and twentieth day of the month, was the earth dried" (Genesis 8:14). This was a year and 10 days after the flood had started (Genesis 7:11). So, as far as Noah was concerned, the flood lasted longer than a year.

LittleLambofJesus said in post 84:
According to Josephus, the destruction of Jerusalem in ad70 took about 5 months.
5 months is also mentioned in Revelation 9 and also the amount of time the flood covered the earth in Gene 7. A lot of Christians believe Revelation is showing that destruction or our faith would be in vain

Regarding "or our faith would be in vain", note that a future tribulation in no way has to make our faith vain. But you're right in that a lot of Christians cannot abide the idea of a future tribulation for Christians.

Preterism (whether full or partial), as well as historicism (in its various modern forms), and pre-tribulation rapturism, symbolicism, and spiritualism, could all be animated by the same spirit of fear: that the church alive today throughout the world would otherwise have to physically suffer through the future, almost-entirely literal, worldwide tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. For these 5 views of preterism, historicism, pre-tribulation rapturism, symbolicism, and spiritualism, in their different ways, each gives a mistaken assurance to the church alive today that it won't have to physically suffer through that tribulation.

Preterism says that the tribulation happened in 70 AD (or a few years before and including 70 AD). Historicism says that it happened over a long period in history, such as during the rise and height of the RCC's power in Europe during the Middle Ages and after, or during the rise and spread of Islam in the Middle East and elsewhere during the Middle Ages and after. Pre-tribulation rapturism says that Jesus will return and rapture the church into the 3rd heaven before the tribulation. Symbolicism says that the tribulation is only symbolic of theological themes which those in the church have always had to struggle with (e.g. Matthew 6:24), and is symbolic of only-local physical persecutions which some in the church have always had to face, and are still facing today in some places. And spiritualism says that the tribulation is only spiritual events which go on only within the hearts of individuals.

But when the almost-entirely literal, worldwide tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 begins in our future, the shaky doctrinal wall which (in their different ways) these 5 views have each tried to build up between the church and the tribulation, will be completely shattered (Ezekiel 13:10-12) as the church worldwide begins to physically suffer through the tribulation (Matthew 24:9-31, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). These 5 views may have left some in the church unprepared mentally to undergo this physical suffering, to where these 5 views could even contribute to some in the church ultimately losing their salvation because of committing apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12) during the tribulation, when they become "offended" that God is making them and their little ones physically suffer through it (Matthew 24:9-12, Matthew 13:21, Isaiah 8:21-22, Luke 8:13).

Even though the church today throughout the world will have to physically suffer through the future tribulation, the church need not fear this (cf. 1 Peter 4:12-13, Revelation 2:10). For even though many in the church will suffer and die during that time (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13), this will be to their gain, as it will bring their still-conscious souls into heaven to be with Jesus (Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8; see also 2 Corinthians 4:17-18; 2 Timothy 2:12), and it won't rob them of the blessed hope (Titus 2:13) of obtaining eternal life (Titus 1:2, Titus 3:7) in an immortal, physical resurrection body (Romans 8:23-25, Philippians 3:21, Luke 24:39) at Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), which will occur immediately after the future tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

 

[Luke17:37]

2 Timothy 3:16 has nothing to do with my point about the audience of scripture. I never once said Revelation was useless for teaching nor doubted it's inspiration.

I wrote that in reference to these words from your post:

"It's true that the end of Revelation mirrors Genesis 1, but that's done intentionally by John, as a literary tool, he had no idea when he wrote the book that it would happen to close out the Bible."

I contest that John himself had no intention but to write every word the Holy Spirit told him to write.

I guess we have different definitions of "direct audience". I agree that scripture is timeless, my point is that we can't accurately understand it if we don't pay attention to the context in which it was written.

Well, chapter 4-22 haven't happened yet, so we remain the audience.

"The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants the things that must soon take place" (Revelation 1:1a).

It's not literal, there's no other way I can explain it. From chapter 4 on, it's all in symbolic writing. The beast having seven heads and ten horns can't be symbolic and the plagues from the trumpets literal.

The purpose of Revelation is to show us what the things that must soon take place. Therefore, I take it as mostly literal. Spiritualize it and you have no clear instruction or information for anything. You can do what you want with it, though.

Matthew 24 and Revelation are two completely independent prophesies talking about two completely different things. Matthew 24 is about the destruction of the temple in AD 70 and Israel, Revelation is about Rome.

I don't believe that, because Matthew 24 Verse 21-31 didn't happen. I don't think Revelation is about Rome, either.

I don't see your theology on the end times as straightforward in any way whatsoever. I see it making connections simply not found in the text, misunderstanding the nature of Biblical prophesy and apocalyptic literature, grossly misinterpreting about every text it does use, it finds aspects of the second coming simply not found in scripture (pretribulation), it imposes modern interpretive constructs onto the text, it assumes we're on the brink and that's all that matters, it's inherently escapist, it produces an unhealthy occupation with nature surrounding Christ's second coming, it's inherently militaristic, it's uncritically pro-West, I could go, but I'll stop there.

Matt, you don't know my end times theology. All I said is I believe it that Revelation is mostly literal. Escapist? Absolutely not. I believe in a post-tribulation resurrection gathering at the return of Christ, therefore I believe the Church is going to be here for the Tribulation and mostly be killed. I don't love the idea of being killed for my faith, but that's what I see from the whole counsel of Scripture as likely if I am alive when the Tribulation starts. I agree that Pre-Tribulation Rapture (and mid-Tribulation, pre-wrath) is escapist and unbiblical.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

LittleLambofJesus said: ↑
According to Josephus, the destruction of Jerusalem in ad70 took about 5 months.
5 months is also mentioned in Revelation 9 and also the amount of time the flood covered the earth in Gene 7. A lot of Christians believe Revelation is showing that destruction or our faith would be in vain

http://www.bible.ca/pre-destruction70AD-george-holford-1805AD.htm
The Destruction Of JERUSALEM
An Absolute and Irresistible PROOF OF THE DIVINE ORIGIN OF CHRISTIANITY:

..............The day on which Titus encompassed Jerusalem, was the feast of the Passover ; and it is deserving of the very particular attention of the reader, that this was the anniversary of that memorable period in which the Jews crucified their Messiah ! At this season multitudes came up from all the surrounding country, and from distant parts, to keep the festival....................

As it drew towards evening, the soldiers exchanged the sword for the torch, and, amidst the darkness of this awful night, set fire to the remaining divisions of the place. The vial of divine wrath, which had been so long pouring out upon this devoted city was now emptying, and JERUSALEM, once "a praise in all the earth," and the subject of a thousand prophecies, deprived of' the staff of life, wrapt in flames, and bleeding on every side sunk into utter ruin and desolation.

Before their final demolition, however, Titus took, a. survey of the city and its fortifications ; and while contemplating their impregnable strength, could not help ascribing his success to the peculiar interposition of the ALMIGHTY HIMSELF. "Had not God himself (exclaimed he) aided out operations, and driven the Jews from their fortresses, it would have been absolutely impossible to have taken them ; for what could men, and the force of engines, have done against such towers as these ?"
After this he commanded that the city should be commanded razed to its foundations, excepting only the three lofty towers Hippocos, Phasael, and Mariamne, which he suffered to remain as evidences of its strength, and as trophies of his victory.

This memorable siege terminated on the eighth day of the ninth month, A. D. 70 : its duration was nearly five months, the Romans having invested the City on the fourteenth day of the fourth month, preceeding.

Reve 9:
3 And out of the smoke came-out locusts into the land, and was given to them authority, as are having authority the scorpions of the land,
5 And was given to them that not they should be killing them, but that they should be being tormented five months. And the torment of them as torment of a scorpion/skorpiou <4651>, whenever it should be striking a man;

Genesis 7:
23 So He destroyed all living things which were on the face of the ground: both man and cattle, creeping thing and bird of the air. They were destroyed from the earth.
Only Noah and those who [were] with him in the ark remained [alive.]
24 And the waters prevailed on the earth one hundred and fifty days



.

Jesus didn't return to that generation though, so the Tribulation He referred to hasn't come (Matthew 24:34).

The Tribulation was pretty great for the Jews in Jerusalem. Perhaps Jesus returned thru the use of the Roman army.

Note the use of the word "denarius" in Reve 6:6 which seems to strenghthen the case for Reve showing the destruction of 1st century Jerusalem and it's Temple:

John 11:48
"If-ever we may be be letting Him thus, all shall be believing in Him.
And shall be coming the Romans and they shall be taking away of Us and the Place and the Nation
[Reve 6:6/14:8]

Revelation 6:6
And I hear a voice in midst of the four living-ones saying: "choinex of grain/wheat a denarius and three choinex of barleys a denarius, and the oil and the wine no you should be injuring".
[John 11:48]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denarius

In the Roman currency system, the denarius (plural: denarii) was a small silver coin first minted in 211 BC. It was the most common coin produced for circulation but was slowly debased until its replacement by the antoninianus. The word denarius is derived from the Latin dēnī "containing ten", as its value was 10 asses; it may also be the origin of the word dinar (see that page for further discussion).

http://www.bible.ca/pre-destruction70AD-george-holford-1805AD.htm

.........The day on which Titus encompassed Jerusalem, was the feast of the Passover. At this season multitudes came up from all the surrounding country, and from distant parts, to keep the festival and the city was at this time crowded with Jewish strangers,...........

.........Meanwhile the horrors of famine grew still more melancholy and afflictive.
The Jews, for want of food were at length compelled to eat their belts, their sandals, the skins of their shields, dried grass, and even the ordure of oxen. In the depth or this horrible extremity, a Jewess of noble family urged by the intolerable cravings of hunger, slew her infant child, and prepared it for a meal ;......................


Reve 18:8
Yet this, in one day, shall be arriving the stripes/blows of Her, death and sorrow and famine.
And in fire She shall be being burned down, that strong Lord, the God, the one judging Her.


.

 

[BobRyan]

Prophecies regarding the return of Christ remain unfulfilled; indeed, some of them are downright confusing. It's nearly 2000 years later and obviously we've developed a lot of technology which makes it seem like man, not God, is in control. We've discovered that the world is a lot bigger than we thought in the 1st century, so any sort of universal coming (the sort prophesied in Scripture) must be of absolutely immense magnitude (like something on par with Noah's Flood). Thoughts?

There is a 490 year timeline prophecy in Daniel 9 -- this is over - it pointed to the first coming of Christ.

There is 2300 year timeline prophecy in Daniel 8 that pointed to the start of the judgment - just before the 2nd coming. That prophecy timeline ended in the mid 1800's -- we are in the last days - the time of the judgement in heaven when as Daniel 7 points out "the books are opened and the court sits" for judgement. "The time for the dead to be judged" according to Rev 11. So then Dan 8 calls the time in which we live "the time of the end".

Rev 14:7 depicts our present age - our time - this way - an angel is giving the gospel message to the whole world "repent for the our of His judgment has come" Rev 14:7

Or is your question - "why is there this 6000 year period of time between the fall of man - and the 2nd coming" -- followed by 1000 years of rest for the world?

 

[Bible2+]

LittleLambofJesus said in post 91:

The Tribulation was pretty great for the Jews in Jerusalem. Perhaps Jesus returned thru the use of the Roman army.

Note that Jesus will return "in like manner" as he ascended (Acts 1:11b), in that just as at the end of his 1st coming he was seen by literal eyes to ascend physically from the Mount of Olives into a literal cloud and on into heaven (Acts 1:9,12, cf. Luke 24:39), so at his 2nd coming he will be seen in literal clouds by literal eyes (Revelation 1:7, Matthew 24:30) to physically descend from heaven (1 Thessalonians 4:16) and set his feet on the Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:3-21).

LittleLambofJesus said in post 91:

Note the use of the word "denarius" in Reve 6:6 which seems to strenghthen the case for Reve showing the destruction of 1st century Jerusalem and it's Temple:

Note that the "dinar" is in use today in some countries, and its name is derived from the Greek "denarion" (used in Revelation 6:6), just as the Greek "denarion" was derived from the Latin "denarius". But Revelation 6:6 doesn't have to be referring to a literal denarion, but can simply be referring to a day's wages, no matter in what country's currency, for the ancient denarion was a day's wages.

Revelation 6:6 refers to future famines, the "hunger" part of Revelation 6:8, when food will be so expensive that someone will have to spend an entire day's wages just to buy a quart of wheat (think of a loaf of bread).

The last 3 of the 4 horsemen (Revelation 6:4-8) represent a horrible future war which will begin the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, and which war will, with its aftermath of famines and epidemics, end up killing 1/4 of the world (Revelation 6:8). The "great sword" of this war (Revelation 6:4) could be Israel's nuclear weapons.

LittleLambofJesus said in post 91:

Reve 18:8
Yet this, in one day, shall be arriving the stripes/blows of Her, death and sorrow and famine.
And in fire She shall be being burned down, that strong Lord, the God, the one judging Her.

Note that while the corrupt aspects of 1st century Jerusalem are included in what Revelation's symbolic "Babylon" (Revelation chapters 17-18) represents, it represents much more than just the corrupt aspects of 1st century Jerusalem. For 1st century Jerusalem just by itself didn't reign over the kings of the earth (Revelation 17:18). Nor was 1st century Jerusalem the only place where people bought merchandise (Revelation 18:11). Nor had 1st century Jerusalem just by itself corrupted the entire world (Revelation 18:3). Nor had 1st century Jerusalem been continuously supported by the empires of fallen man throughout history (Revelation 17:9-10). Instead, Revelation's symbolic "Babylon" represents all of mankind's corrupt political (Revelation 17:18), economic (Revelation 18:11), and religious (Revelation 18:24) systems throughout the earth (Revelation 18:3), and throughout history (Revelation 17:9-10).

In Revelation 11:8, the great city is Jerusalem, where Jesus was crucified. But in Revelation 21:10, the great city is New Jerusalem, which is now in heaven. And in Revelation 14:8, Revelation 17:18, and Revelation 18:10-21, the great city is the symbolic harlot/city of Babylon. When it is destroyed, it will be found no more at all (Revelation 18:21), forever (Revelation 19:3), unlike Jerusalem, which was found again after its only-temporary destruction in 70 AD.

The 10 kings of the Antichrist's future empire will destroy with fire what Revelation's "Babylon" represents (Revelation 17:16-17) when they destroy the cities of the nations (Revelation 16:19).

 

[Bible2+]

BobRyan said in post 92:

There is 2300 year timeline prophecy in Daniel 8 . . .

Are you thinking of the following verse?

Daniel 8:14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

If so, note that here the original Hebrew words (ereb: H6153; and boqer: H1242) translated as the single word "days", mean "evenings" and "mornings" (cf. Daniel 8:26) in reference to the evening and morning lamb sacrifices of the Mosaic law (Exodus 29:38-42). So the 2,300 "evenings" and "mornings" might actually be only 1,150 days. These literal days could have been fulfilled in ancient times, in the time of Antiochus IV. And Daniel 8:14b could refer to the cleansing of the temple under Judas Maccabeus.

BobRyan said in post 92:

Rev 14:7 depicts our present age - our time - this way - an angel is giving the gospel message to the whole world "repent for the our of His judgment has come" Rev 14:7

Revelation 14:6-20 will occur after the events of the future tribulation's first 6 trumpets up to Revelation 9:21, and at the start of the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:4-18). Revelation 14:9-11 will be a warning to people (including those in the church) not to worship the Antichrist or they will suffer the eternal wrath of God, which will be in the lake of fire and brimstone (Revelation 20:10,15, Matthew 25:41,46).

 

[Luke17:37]

The Tribulation was pretty great for the Jews in Jerusalem. Perhaps Jesus returned thru the use of the Roman army.

So, are you saying you don't believe in a literal return of Christ? Jesus will return in the flesh. Please believe it.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3
Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition...

Therefore, Paul is saying Jesus' second coming hasn't happened and not to let anyone deceive you because it won't happen until after the revealing of the man of sin (the Antichrist) and after the great apostasy.

2 Peter 3:3-9 specifically addresses the error of not believing in a literal fulfillment of Jesus' return. In Luke 18:1-8, Jesus' words suggest many will stop believing before He comes. He also warns in Matthew 24 of false christs, false prophets, false returns of Christ.

 

[Bible2+]

Luke17:37 said in post 95:

Therefore, Paul is saying Jesus' [return] hasn't happened not to let anyone deceive you because it won't happen until after the revealing of the man of sin (the Antichrist) and after the great apostasy.

That's right.

For 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8 is most often referred to in order to refute the mistaken idea of an imminent, pre-tribulation return of Jesus and rapture (gathering together) of the church, which won't happen until immediately after the future tribulation (Matthew 24:29-21). But the apostle Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8 wasn't so much countering pre-tribulation rapturism as he was countering full preterism. Full preterism mistakenly says that the day of the Lord (Christ) is already at hand (2 Thessalonians 2:2), in the sense of already present, that the 2nd coming and rapture have already occurred (2 Thessalonians 2:1-2), that the resurrection of the church is already a present reality (2 Timothy 2:18). Paul was careful to counter full preterism, for it can trouble (2 Thessalonians 2:2) and even overthrow the faith of some believers (2 Timothy 2:18). It can cause them to lose the blessed hope (Titus 2:13) of obtaining eternal life (Titus 1:2, Titus 3:7) in an immortal, physical resurrection body (Romans 8:23-25, Philippians 3:21, Luke 24:39) at Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Luke17:37 said in post 95:

So, are you saying you don't believe in a literal return of Christ?

Full preterism sometimes claims that we are each individually resurrected and caught up to meet Christ in heaven (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17) when we die. But that isn't the case. For 1 Thessalonians 4:17 will include "we which are alive and remain", as well as "them", meaning as well as all the dead in the church (of all times), who will all be physically resurrected at the same time, at Jesus' never-fulfilled 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), at the single moment that the last trumpet will sound (1 Corinthians 15:52; 1 Thessalonians 4:16, Matthew 24:31), which won't be until immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

So just as even Jesus himself wasn't resurrected at the moment that he died, but was resurrected on the 3rd day after he died (1 Corinthians 15:4), so believers aren't resurrected at the moment that they die, but must wait to be resurrected until Jesus' never-fulfilled 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), which could occur near the start of the 3rd, thousand-year period (or "day": 2 Peter 3:8) after Jesus' 1st coming (the 1st thousand-year period being the years 1 to 1000 AD, the 2nd thousand-year period being the years 1001 to 2000 AD, and the 3rd thousand-year period being the years 2001 to 3000 AD).

Luke17:37 said in post 95:

Jesus will return in the flesh. Please believe it.

Amen.

For believers need to be careful not to be deceived by the Gnostic/antichrist lie that Christ isn't in the flesh (2 John 1:7), and that believers won't forever be in the flesh. For the Bible shows that on the 3rd day after his death (Luke 24:46; 1 Corinthians 15:3-4), Jesus Christ wasn't resurrected as a disembodied spirit, but in his human, flesh and bones body (Luke 24:39, Hebrews 2:17). That is why his tomb is empty (Matthew 28:6), and why he still has the wounds of the crucifixion on his resurrection body (John 20:25-29). And Luke 24:39 didn't stop being true once Jesus ascended into heaven. For he will remain forever the human mediator/high priest of believers (1 Timothy 2:5, Hebrews 7:24-26), in human flesh, just like they are in human flesh (Hebrews 2:17). And when he returns, he will still have the wounds of the crucifixion on his resurrection body (Zechariah 13:6, Zechariah 12:10-14).

Gnosticism mistakenly thinks that flesh is evil in itself, and that only pure spirit can be good. But Jesus proves that flesh isn't evil in itself, for he has been made flesh (John 1:1,14, Romans 1:3, Luke 24:39), and remains wholly without sin (Hebrews 4:15). Genesis also proves that flesh isn't evil in itself, but was created by God as something very good (Genesis 1:31). Adam and Eve were flesh, for they were the progenitors of the human race alive today. And they were immortal before they fell into sin, for it was only their falling into sin which made them become mortal (Genesis 2:17). So Adam and Eve started out as immortal flesh. And so the future resurrection (if dead) or changing (if alive) of saved people into immortal flesh bodies like Jesus has (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53, Philippians 3:21, Luke 24:39, Romans 8:23-25) will be God allowing them to partake of the original, immortal-flesh condition of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden before their fall into sin.

Also, beware the more-general Gnostic lie that even the entire physical universe is evil in itself, and that only a purely-spiritual heaven can be good. For this lie is employed by Gnosticism to wrongly revile the Creator God YHWH as an evil, tyrant, lesser god, whom Gnosticism says created the physical universe to be the foul prison house of human spirits, whom Gnosticism says by some mistake fell from bliss in a purely-spiritual heaven down into the physical universe, to become trapped in suffering, fleshly bodies. No doubt the future Antichrist will employ this lie as part of his utter reviling of YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36). But Genesis shows that our physical world was created by YHWH as something very good (Genesis 1:31).

And the Bible shows that the whole plan of Creation wasn't that humans, who are both flesh and spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:23, Luke 24:39), would become purely-spiritual ghosts and float forever on clouds in a purely-spiritual heaven with God, but that God would become both flesh and spirit like man (John 1:1,14), and that God would ultimately come down from heaven to live with man on a future, new earth (Revelation 21:1-4), just as God had walked on the earth in the Garden of Eden with Adam and Eve (Genesis 3:8). Also, on the new earth, saved humanity will be allowed to eat from the literal tree of life (Revelation 2:7, Revelation 22:2,14), just as Adam and Eve hadn't been forbidden to eat from it in their unfallen state (Genesis 2:9,16-17). So, with regard to saved people, God will completely undo the effect of the fall of Adam and Eve. Saved people will be able to live in an earthly, physical paradise forever with God (Revelation 2:7), just as Adam and Eve and their descendants might have done had not Adam and Eve fallen into sin.

So beware the Gnostic lie. Beware the Antichrist.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Full preterism sometimes claims that we are each individually resurrected and caught up to meet Christ in heaven (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17) when we die. But that isn't the case. For 1 Thessalonians 4:17 will include "we which are alive and remain", as well as "them", meaning as well as all the dead in the church (of all times), who will all be physically resurrected at the same time, at Jesus' never-fulfilled 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), at the single moment that the last trumpet will sound (1 Corinthians 15:52; 1 Thessalonians 4:16, Matthew 24:31), which won't be until immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

So just as even Jesus himself wasn't resurrected at the moment that he died, but was resurrected on the 3rd day after he died (1 Corinthians 15:4), so believers aren't resurrected at the moment that they die, but must wait to be resurrected until Jesus' never-fulfilled 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), which could occur near the start of the 3rd, thousand-year period (or "day": 2 Peter 3:8) after Jesus' 1st coming (the 1st thousand-year period being the years 1 to 1000 AD, the 2nd thousand-year period being the years 1001 to 2000 AD, and the 3rd thousand-year period being the years 2001 to 3000 AD).

So beware the Gnostic lie. Beware the Antichrist.

Full Preterism and Amillianism believe most of the Olivet Discourse and most of Revelation are fulfilled.

However, "Hyper-Preterism" believes all of Daniel, the Olivet Discourse and ALL of Revelation, including the White Throne Judgement. was fulfilled in AD70 destruction of Jerusalem. That is a view I do not embrace, tho I do believe it is an interesting concept...........

http://www.newcreationministries.tv/full-vs-hyper-preterism.html

What is the difference between full and hyper-preterism?
response by Ward Fenley

It seems that about once a year a reminder needs to be made about the difference between full and hyper preterism.

Full preterism is simply the view that all eschatological events necessary to secure complete redemption for all believers, past, present, and future have been fulfilled. Full preterism is not universalism. Full preterism does not deny the need for faith in Jesus Christ. It merely says that the redemptive events necessary for eternal life (i.e., the cross, resurrection) were accomplished. The Parousia comes through the faith of Jesus Christ. That is, it is called the Faith because it is given by God. Therefore it is called "the righteousness of the faith" in reference to Abraham. And all who believe believe because they were given faith and considered a part of Him to Whom the promise was made, i.e. "to His Seed, which is Christ." Full preterism affirms the gates of the city are always open (Isaiah 60; Revelation 21) for those who were promised everlasting life before the age began. God will give them faith and will give them His Parousia or Presence, through Whose Presence they are immediately placed in the holiest and made the righteousness of Christ.

Hyperpreterism is not universalism. Hyperpreterism is the belief that no one after AD 70 will have eternal life and that no soteriological benefit (i.e. salvific benefit) extends beyond AD 70. They (hyperpreterists) may believe that those particular events happened, but because they do not believe they apply past AD 70, they, by sheer virtue of their own confession, do not believe in the need for forgiveness of sin. After all, if you don't believe Christ died for you since you were born after AD 70, then you do not believe the Gospel as it is clearly portrayed in the Scriptures:

A Brief Theological Analysis of Hyper-Preterism

From time to time I receive letters from men declaring themselves "Reconstructionist" and "consistent preterist." The "consistent preterist" believes that all prophecy is fulfilled in the A. D. 70 destruction of the Temple, including the Second Advent, the resurrection of the dead, the great Judgment, and so forth. Due to my primary writing ministry against rapidly changing dispensationalism, I have not had time to deal extensively with the issue, but I do have some random thoughts that I will make public in this article. These thoughts are based on readings from their monthly publications and books, of which I have a great number.
Let me begin by noting that, in the first place, I do not know how anyone could credibly claim to be postmillennial and hyper-preterist, nor do I understand how he could claim to be Reconstructionist, while maintaining his hyper-preterism.................



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[stephen583]

The answer to your question appears in 2 Peter 3:8. This teaching is of such paramount importance in understanding the Word of God and Bible prophecy.. The Apostle Peter begins with the words, "Do not let this one thing escape your notice" NAS. In various versions of the Bible the words appear as "do not be ignorant of this one thing" KJV, "Do not forget this one thing" ISV and so forth and so on. Despite these variations, what is perfectly clear, is that Peter holds this particular teaching to be of singular importance among everything else he teaches.

The text goes on to say, "one day with the Lord is as a thousand years". Now try to wrap your head around that statement for a minute. That means God doesn't reckon the passage of time the same way we do. From God's perspective, the way he reckons time, Jesus was crucified and rose from the dead a little over two days ago. So from that standpoint, not a lot of time has passed in heaven, since the time Jesus was last on earth.

I think Peter's lesson here, is to remind us not to count God as being lax or disengaged simply because a couple of thousand years (the way we reckon time) has passed since the first Advent of Christ. Strange, isn't it ?! It's almost appears as if Peter knew this question was going to be posted on this web-site, doesn't it ?!

One thing you can be absolutely certain of, when God does act, prophetic events here on earth are going to start happening very, very fast. "Like lightning in the sky, passing from the East even unto the West" (Matthew 24:27). Sort of like what is happening right now.

 

[Mb_C]

Prophecies regarding the return of Christ remain unfulfilled; indeed, some of them are downright confusing. It's nearly 2000 years later and obviously we've developed a lot of technology which makes it seem like man, not God, is in control. We've discovered that the world is a lot bigger than we thought in the 1st century, so any sort of universal coming (the sort prophesied in Scripture) must be of absolutely immense magnitude (like something on par with Noah's Flood). Thoughts?

My approach is by looking out for the signposts. Jesus isn't coming until the 7th trumpet sounds (Revelation 11:15-19). The 7th trumpet isn't going to sound until the mystery of God is complete (Revelation 10:7). The mystery of God is "Christ in you, the hope of glory" (Colossians 1:27). For that to be complete, every single individual will have to have had the opportunity to receive Christ or reject Him at some point in the future. For the process of "Christ in you" to be complete, every single individual who has received Christ will by then perfectly reflect Christ in them. Their character will be 100% perfect. Only then can Jesus come, because when He comes, no one can "enter" the heavenly sanctuary during the 7 plagues (Revelation 15:8). Jesus will wait until all who trust in Him have perfectly reflected His character so there is no need for Him to minister in the heavenly sanctuary anymore.

 

[Luke17:37]

My approach is by looking out for the signposts. Jesus isn't coming until the 7th trumpet sounds (Revelation 11:15-19). The 7th trumpet isn't going to sound until the mystery of God is complete (Revelation 10:7).

I agree. Jesus told us to look for the signposts - "when the fig tree puts forth leaves," as I sometimes say in paraphrase (e.g., in Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21). Then He provided us more specific information in the book of Revelation.

The mystery of God is "Christ in you, the hope of glory" (Colossians 1:27). For that to be complete, every single individual will have to have had the opportunity to receive Christ or reject Him at some point in the future.

The gospel will go out to the world (Matthew 24:14) and everyone who will receive Christ will have done so before He returns. That is the reason why He "waits long" (Luke 18:7-8, 2 Peter 3:4, 2 Peter 3:8-9, Matthew 24:48, Matthew 25:5, Matthew 25:19).

For the process of "Christ in you" to be complete, every single individual who has received Christ will by then perfectly reflect Christ in them. Their character will be 100% perfect.

This I do not agree with. No matter how long we live, we don't obtain perfection. But God will make us perfect after we die, or when we are gathered and clothed in immortality (1 Corinthians 15:50-58).

Only then can Jesus come, because when He comes, no one can "enter" the heavenly sanctuary during the 7 plagues (Revelation 15:8). Jesus will wait until all who trust in Him have perfectly reflected His character so there is no need for Him to minister in the heavenly sanctuary anymore.

I have a different perspective on the plagues of the seven bowls. In Matthew 13, in the parable of the wheat and the tares, Jesus said both wheat (true believers) and tares (false believers or unbelivers) would grow together until the harvest at the end of the age. He specifically indicates the tares will be gathered first (to be destroyed) and then the wheat. Therefore, how can Jesus can come back at/after the seventh trumpet and gather the righteous, followed then by seven bowls of wrath on the wicked? So, this is what I believe: the trumpets and bowls will be in parallel, not series. So, the first Trumpet and first Bowl would coincide, etc., up to the Seventh Trumpet and Seventh Bowl. I think of the Trumpets and Bowls as two cameras recording different angles of the same events - the Trumpets are focused on the global impact (e.g., Revelation 8:7-15) and the Bowls on the kingdom of the Beast (Revelation 14:9-10, Revelation 16:2, Revelation 16:10).