Why hasn't Christ returned yet?

[Armoured]

Prophecies regarding the return of Christ remain unfulfilled; indeed, some of them are downright confusing. It's nearly 2000 years later and obviously we've developed a lot of technology which makes it seem like man, not God, is in control. We've discovered that the world is a lot bigger than we thought in the 1st century, so any sort of universal coming (the sort prophesied in Scripture) must be of absolutely immense magnitude (like something on par with Noah's Flood). Thoughts?

Because the Bible clearly says "no man knows the day or hour", and other bits saying it will come as a surprise to all. Given that one whackaloon or another has been predicting the end of the world pretty much constantly ever since Jesus left last time, he hasn't been able to come back, because that would have meant some guy DID know the day and hour, thus proving Jesus in error, which would instantly cause all matter in the universe to explode instantly at the speed of light.

 

[Armoured]

How observant that we are more knowledgeable of disasters, but so missing the point of signs. The purpose of a sign is to put people on notice, not kill people. It doesn't matter exactly how much of a change in the actual number or severity of natural disasters there has been of recent. It matters only that the world perceives the disasters more often. I would note though that severity of these disasters are certain to be worse as the population is higher today than ever. Also today we have the existence of multiplier effects to disasters like nuclear reactors melting down.


If you would pay a little more attention to the words written you would see that these are signs of the end times. Read the first sentence you quote. The disciples ask the question when and with what sign the end comes. The Olivet discourse is Jesus' answer to the disciples' question for signs of the end.

3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”​

I think you don't understand what labor pains are and totally miss Jesus' analogy. Labor pains come before and with increasing severity/awareness leading up to the event of birth. While pregnancy lasts 9 months, labor pains occur in the last days/hours preceding a birth that last minutes. You quibble over Jesus saying the pains are not the last day and use it to dismiss Jesus' whole message presented with the analogy. Understand that Jesus said that wars, famines and earthquakes are signs that mark the beginning of birth pains. If you compared the 9 months to the thousands of years we have been waiting for Jesus' return even a simple person could understand that the time of wars, famines and earthquakes marked as the start of birth pains is very near the day of Jesus' return.



You seem to concede to a heightened knowledge and awareness of disasters. Understand that the whole point of signs is to be seen. We don't hide traffic signs behind bushes. Further traffic signs provide direction. God's end-time signs likewise serve a purpose and are intended to be noticed. God does not bring earthquakes to just aimlessly dispense of his righteous judgement. If Hollywood can understand that these signs represent a call to repent for the end is near then Christians should be able to understand this also.

Now if end time signs have a purpose of bringing the lost to repentance, than there should be some time between the sign and the actual event of the last day. This would allow some time to actually head the sign, repent and come to salvation. Now if one were to appreciate the purpose of signs, one could appreciate how Jesus and scripture has led people to believe that the end was near for every generation since his first coming. Indeed judgement day is near for everyone, for most everyone dies within about 100 years, give or take.

Case in point.

 

[SnowyMacie]

Christ hasn't returned yet because it's not time yet.

 

[Achilles6129]

Well, when will it be time, and why hasn't it been time?

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

But Scripture also says...and a thousand years is but a day. (I just want to emphasize His return as a thief in the night...very unexpected.)

Very unexpected to those that aren't looking for it. We are told to watch for it so we don't get caught unawares....

 

[throughfiierytrial]

Very unexpected to those that aren't looking for it. We are told to watch for it so we don't get caught unawares....

Amen!! But we should always be living up to expectations God has of our faith, too!

 

[Press On]

.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Well, when will it be time,

When God says so.

and why hasn't it been time?

Because God hasn't said so.

Bottom line? It's none of our business to know these things. Ours is to trust in Him, that includes His future coming. Whether that happens in ten minutes or ten thousand years it doesn't matter.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

Because the Bible clearly says "no man knows the day or hour", and other bits saying it will come as a surprise to all.

You extrapolate an incorrect premise, that not knowing the day or hour means no one will know the time of the end times. Not the same. If one was prepared for Jesus' 2nd coming as Jesus taught in the parable of the 10 virgins waiting for the master's return, then a wise person will not be so surprised. Further Paul makes distinction between the people of the light not being surprised at the day of the Lord verses those in darkness being surprised.

1 Thes 5:2 for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. 4 But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.​

Given that one whackaloon or another has been predicting the end of the world pretty much constantly ever since Jesus left last time, he hasn't been able to come back, because that would have meant some guy DID know the day and hour, thus proving Jesus in error, which would instantly cause all matter in the universe to explode instantly at the speed of light.

Maybe Satan could stop Jesus' coming by getting a whackaloon to pronounce Jesus was coming for every single day. Given the billions following him, he could prevent Jesus coming for millions of years.

If you have any respect for the apostles, then you should not disrespect any that think Jesus is returning in their lifetime, just as the apostles believed so.

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

Bottom line? It's none of our business to know these things. Ours is to trust in Him, that includes His future coming. Whether that happens in ten minutes or ten thousand years it doesn't matter.

-CryptoLutheran

Of what purpose did God give us prophecies then? Do you think there was merit in people looking for and anticipating Jesus first coming and fulfillment of those prophecies? If the Holy Spirit revealed to Simeon that he would live to see Jesus' first coming, why would it be so unimaginable for someone to receive the same for Jesus' second coming?

You persist in typical Lutheran fashion in your dismissal of end times signs. You say "it is none of our business to know these things" while you ignore the whole purpose of signs. They are to be noticed, not ignored. What really amazes me is that it is not enough for Lutherans to belittle the Book of Revelations and other end times scripture in their own organization, but they are so compelled to lecture others to also ignore the signs as written in scripture.

 

[keltoi]

All this posting about timelines and giving an order of events so we know when Christ will return is a waste of time. Christ himself says in Mark 13:32-33
32 But of that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.
33 “Take heed, keep on the alert; for you do not know when the appointed time will come
He also says in Matthew 24:43-44
43 But be sure of this, that if the head of the house had known at what time of the night the thief was coming, he would have been on the alert and would not have allowed his house to be broken into.
44 For this reason you also must be ready; for the Son of Man is coming at an hour when you do not think He will.

So analysing everything to the most minute detail won't do you any good because it is clearly written for those who have eyes to see that only God the Father knows when Christ will return and it won't happen when you think it will. My advice is don't waste your time analysing the worlds events in the hope you may be able to get a front row seat at the game cause it wont happen that way. Maintain a readiness for his return but not like this.

 

[Bible2+]

throughfireytrial said in post 40:

I just want to emphasize His return as a thief in the night...very unexpected.

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

Regarding this verse, the mistaken, pre-tribulation rapture view feels that this verse supports the idea of an imminent, pre-tribulation, secret coming of Jesus to rapture the church and begin the tribulation. But note that not all thieves in the night come secretly, like cat burglars. Some like to rob homes via what is called a home invasion, which is quite obvious, and can involve the thieves not only stealing, but also killing and destroying (John 10:10; 2 Thessalonians 1:8-10, Revelation 19:7-21).

Jesus' coming as a thief in the night (1 Thessalonians 5:2, Matthew 24:43-44, Revelation 16:15) doesn't mean that he will come secretly. "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trump of God" (1 Thessalonians 4:16), "with a great sound of a trumpet" (Matthew 24:31). And "as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be" (Matthew 24:27,43-44). "Behold, I come as a thief" (Revelation 16:15), "Behold, he cometh with clouds [1 Thessalonians 4:17]; and every eye shall see him" (Revelation 1:7).

Similarly, Jesus' coming as a thief in the night doesn't mean that his coming is imminent. For he can't come until immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Jesus' 2nd coming as a thief in the night (1 Thessalonians 5:2) means that he will come even upon Christians when they aren't expecting him only if they stop watching (staying awake, spiritually) during the tribulation. Compare the if principle of Revelation 3:3. Also, some in the church will still be alive on the earth during the tribulation's final stage, still watching (staying awake, spiritually) for Jesus' 2nd coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15). So his 2nd coming won't overtake them like a thief (1 Thessalonians 5:4, Matthew 24:43).

Regarding Jesus' 2nd coming as a thief to the unsaved world, when it isn't expecting him (1 Thessalonians 5:2-4, Matthew 24:39), nothing requires that the unsaved world will be expecting Jesus' 2nd coming after the tribulation. For during the tribulation, the unsaved world could come to believe that his 2nd coming has already happened (Matthew 24:24-26).

That is, Matthew 24:37-41 shows that the unsaved people of the world will have no idea that most of them are going to be killed at Jesus' 2nd coming until it actually happens. For they could think that the 2nd coming had already occurred with the coming into power of the Antichrist's miracle-working False Prophet (of Revelation 13:13-14, Revelation 19:20), who could claim to be Jesus returned. And just as the people of the world shortly before Noah's flood, even though they could see or hear about Noah building his huge ark, no doubt rejected the idea that YHWH God had the power to actually cause a global flood which would kill them, so the people of the world at the end of the future tribulation could reject the idea that YHWH has the power to actually defeat them.

For during the tribulation's 2nd half, the world will see the power of Lucifer (Satan, the dragon) and his fallen angels (Revelation 12:9); and the power that Lucifer will give to the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") to take over the entire earth (Revelation 13:4-8), and to utterly revile YHWH year after year without being destroyed (Revelation 13:5-6, Daniel 11:36); and to physically overcome and kill people in the church in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13). And the world will see the amazing miraculous powers which Lucifer will give to the Antichrist's False Prophet, by which he will be able to even call fire down from heaven in the sight of everyone (Revelation 13:13, cf. 2 Thessalonians 2:9).

And near the end of the future tribulation, the world will see the Antichrist's defeat of YHWH's amazingly-powerful 2 witnesses (Revelation 11:3-9), after which defeat the world will rejoice and make merry and send gifts to each other because the 2 witnesses had been sending plagues on the world (Revelation 11:10,6). And even though those plagues will be shortly followed by even more plagues from YHWH, poured out directly from heaven (Revelation 16, the tribulation's final stage), the people of the world won't lose their confidence that YHWH can still be defeated. For after almost all the plagues from heaven are over, the world will see the amazing miraculous powers of some unclean spirits, convincing the world's armies to gather together for a battle against YHWH (Revelation 16:13-14, Revelation 19:19). And so the world could come to that battle at the very end of the tribulation with the same careless attitude as some people at the start of the American Civil War, who held picnics at the expected 1st battleground of Bull Run/Manassas to watch the battle and what they expected to be a quick and easy victory.

 

[Bible2+]

EastCoastRemnant said in post 45:

Very unexpected to those that aren't looking for it. We are told to watch for it so we don't get caught unawares....

That's right.

But note that in the Bible, when we are told to "watch" for Jesus' 2nd coming (Mark 13:35-37), the original Greek word (gregoreuo: G1127) translated as "watch" doesn't mean to stare with our eyes hoping to see someone appear at any moment. Instead, it means "to keep awake" (Strong's Greek Dictionary), like in Matthew 26:40, 1 Thessalonians 5:6, and Mark 13:36-37.

We are to keep spiritually awake as we wait for Jesus to return. For if we fall spiritually asleep, that is, fall into backsliding, there is no assurance that we will recover our right relationship with Jesus before he returns (Matthew 24:48-51), just as if we fall physically asleep waiting for something to happen, there is no assurance that we will wake back up in time to see it happen.

During the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18, Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21, believers will have to "watch" (stay awake, spiritually) for Jesus' 2nd coming (Matthew 24:42-43, Matthew 25:13, Luke 21:36), which Jesus has just finished saying won't occur until immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6). For if a believer isn't "watching" (staying awake, spiritually) for the 2nd coming, it will take that believer by surprise (cf. the if principle of Revelation 3:3b). And that believer will lose his or her salvation at that time because of such things as unrepentant sin (Luke 12:45-46, Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27), unrepentant laziness (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8), or apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12b).

Also, even when believers know the truth that Jesus' return won't occur until immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31), they still need to live each day knowing that any of them could die at any time (Luke 12:20, James 4:14).

EastCoastRemnant said in post 45:

Very unexpected to those that aren't looking for it. We are told to watch for it so we don't get caught unawares....

We are indeed to be "looking for" Jesus' appearing (Titus 2:13). But note that the original Greek word (prosdechomai: G4327) translated as "looking for" doesn't mean to stare with our eyes with the hope of seeing someone come at any moment. Instead, it means "to await (with confidence or patience)" (Strong's Greek Dictionary), like in Luke 12:36, Luke 2:25, and Mark 15:43. For Jesus can't come at any moment. He can't come until at least 2 events happen first (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4). For his coming and gathering together of the church must destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1,8). That is why his coming to gather together the church won't be until after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27), and why we will have to go through the future tribulation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Matthew 24:9-13).

 

[Bible2+]

ViaCrucis said in post 48:

Bottom line? It's none of our business to know these things. Ours is to trust in Him, that includes His future coming. Whether that happens in ten minutes or ten thousand years it doesn't matter.

Note that it could end up mattering for some Christians.

Also, the future fulfillment of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 should be relevant to every Christian alive today. For the main reason the Bible gives clear warning ahead of time about everything that Christians alive at the time of the tribulation will have to face (Mark 13:23, Revelation chapters 6 to 18, Revelation 1:1, Revelation 22:16), before Jesus returns immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), is so that Christians can be better prepared mentally not to be blindsided (1 Peter 4:12-13) or deceived by anything that is coming (Matthew 24:4-5,23-25, Revelation 13:13-18, Revelation 19:20), and so that they can be better prepared mentally to endure the future tribulation with patience and faith to the end (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6), and not commit apostasy during the tribulation (Isaiah 8:21-22, Matthew 24:9-13, Matthew 13:21), to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12).

 

[Armoured]

You extrapolate an incorrect premise, that not knowing the day or hour means no one will know the time of the end times. Not the same. If one was prepared for Jesus' 2nd coming as Jesus taught in the parable of the 10 virgins waiting for the master's return, then a wise person will not be so surprised. Further Paul makes distinction between the people of the light not being surprised at the day of the Lord verses those in darkness being surprised.

1 Thes 5:2 for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. 4 But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.​

Maybe Satan could stop Jesus' coming by getting a whackaloon to pronounce Jesus was coming for every single day. Given the billions following him, he could prevent Jesus coming for millions of years.

If you have any respect for the apostles, then you should not disrespect any that think Jesus is returning in their lifetime, just as the apostles believed so.

If you want to believe the people constantly predicting the End Of The World are tools of Satan, that's fine with me. Something has to explain their track record for getting it wrong.

 

[Steeno7]

2 Peter 3:9

"The Lord is not slow in keeping His promise, as some understand slowness. Instead He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance."

 

[SnowyMacie]

You extrapolate an incorrect premise, that not knowing the day or hour means no one will know the time of the end times. Not the same. If one was prepared for Jesus' 2nd coming as Jesus taught in the parable of the 10 virgins waiting for the master's return, then a wise person will not be so surprised. Further Paul makes distinction between the people of the light not being surprised at the day of the Lord verses those in darkness being surprised.

1 Thes 5:2 for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. 4 But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.​

Maybe Satan could stop Jesus' coming by getting a whackaloon to pronounce Jesus was coming for every single day. Given the billions following him, he could prevent Jesus coming for millions of years.

If you have any respect for the apostles, then you should not disrespect any that think Jesus is returning in their lifetime, just as the apostles believed so.

The point of Biblical prophesy isn't to predict the future, but to give a message.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Of what purpose did God give us prophecies then? Do you think there was merit in people looking for and anticipating Jesus first coming and fulfillment of those prophecies? If the Holy Spirit revealed to Simeon that he would live to see Jesus' first coming, why would it be so unimaginable for someone to receive the same for Jesus' second coming?

You persist in typical Lutheran fashion in your dismissal of end times signs. You say "it is none of our business to know these things" while you ignore the whole purpose of signs. They are to be noticed, not ignored. What really amazes me is that it is not enough for Lutherans to belittle the Book of Revelations and other end times scripture in their own organization, but they are so compelled to lecture others to also ignore the signs as written in scripture.

I can't change the fact that Scripture is clear that nobody knows the day or hour except God the Father. Those are Christ's words, not mine or Lutheranism's. I also can't change the fact that when talking about signs the Lord referred not to His coming but to the destruction of Jerusalem and its Temple which happened nearly two millennia ago--it's not in my powers to alter the historical record. Nor can I change the fact that when the Lord does talk about His coming He says it will be as in the days of Noah, people marrying and being given in marriage until suddenly and without warning the flood came--two will be in a field, one will be taken and the other one left.

That's Scripture.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Jipsah]

Christ hasn't returned yet because he can't

Any post that says "God can't ..." or "Jesus can't" is absurd on its face.

 

[Steeno7]

Any post that says "God can't ..." or "Jesus can't" is absurd on its face.

Oh yeah? God can't lie. There.