Why God Does Not Chasten With Sickness & Death

[humanimal]

Originally posted by Andrew
tks auntie Belle Um,

okay, back to why GOd does not chasten with sickness and death......

How can  you tell the difference?

Ecc 7:15
All this have I seen in my days of vanity: there is a righteous man that perisheth in his righteousness, and there is a wicked man that prolongeth his life in his evil-doing.

 

[LouisBooth]

*sigh* although you might have not done it right, you make a valid point humanimal. They claim that the book of Ecc should not be in the bible, for it is just human wisdom. then Snup goes on and says yet again, sinfull means sickness, what an unbiblical position they have taken up.

As for your commentary on verse 15, that is the start of an argument and a statement ment to be taken in context. The author is saying here he doesn't understand why this thing he sees happens. His conclusion is found in verse 29.

"This only have I found: God made mankind upright, but men have gone in search of many schemes." coming to the same conclusion paul did in romans, "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God..."

 

[SnuP]

It is not nessicarily a man's perticular sin that causes sickness, but rather the fact that man exist in a fallen state due to sin that causes sickness.

Sin causes man to lose touch with God.
Losing touch with God means losing touch with the life of God.
Losing touch with the life of God means sickness.

Sin = no God = no life = sickness

sin = sickness

It is a chain of events that get you there, but you still get there.

Now show me how this is unbiblical

 

[LouisBooth]

"It is a chain of events that get you there, but you still get there."

wrong o


"Now show me how this is unbiblical"

John chapter 9. The guy was blind and Christ himself says it has NOTHING to do with sin. Therefore sickness doesn't mean sinful.

 

[SnuP]

Accually Christ said that it had nothing to do with his or his parents sin. Christ did not say "it had NOTHING to do with sin." He was merely stating that the blame could not fall squarely on the shoulders of this man or his parents. That does not mean that the blame can't fall elsewhere.

"It is a chain of events that get you there, but you still get there."

wrong o

Please show me how I am wrong.

 

[LouisBooth]

"Accually Christ said that it had nothing to do with his or his parents sin. "

wow, you're sure stretching here snup. You mean to say I can sin and it causes you to be sick???

I did show you John chapter 9 shows that one has nothing to do with the other.

 

[SnuP]

Originally posted by LouisBooth
"Accually Christ said that it had nothing to do with his or his parents sin. "

wow, you're sure stretching here snup. You mean to say I can sin and it causes you to be sick???

I did show you John chapter 9 shows that one has nothing to do with the other.

Do we really have to go all the way back to Adam?

John 9?  I don't follow you.

 

[LouisBooth]

"John 9? I don't follow you."

I didn't think you read the passage here either. You must not have your sword with you. In John 9 Christ say the SOLE purpose of the man being born blind was so that the work of God be shown in his life. No sin at all was the cause. It was because it was God's will for him to be sick so that God could heal him. Thus for 20 so odd years of this man's life God wanted him to be sick because it was going to fufill some greater purpose.

"Do we really have to go all the way back to Adam?"

Go for it! If you say that then if I sin then you're affected too, thus you're sick and therefor sinful. Sorry didn't mean to make you sinful seebs..LOL what a silly idea. You're ssssssssssttttttttttrrrrrrrrrrreeeeeeeeeettttttttttccccccccccccchhhhhhhiiiiiiiinnnnnnggggggggg it.

 

[SnuP]

Accually I've have all seven of them with me and then there are the ones on my computer. I cannot type as fast a you so I skimmed the whole chapter to try to keep up.

It does not say that it was God's will for him to be sick. It says that God would be glorified by his release. Jesus was talking about something that was not just limited to one man. We are are that way, born in to the death brought in from Adam. And God desires to deliver all of us from that working of death from with in our members.

From this we see that through the one man Adam, sin and death (sickness) entered the world. And thourgh the second Adam, sin and death (sickness) is removed and God is glorified.

Have you not read that sin (and it consiquences) is passed down to the third and forth generation.

 

[LouisBooth]

"I cannot type as fast a you so I skimmed the whole chapter to try to keep up."

why? There is no rush to reply. Read the book, don't skim.

"It does not say that it was God's will for him to be sick. "

It was God's will, for he clearly gave Satan the okay.

"We are are that way, born in to the death brought in from Adam. And God desires to deliver all of us from that working of death from with in our members."

And that is the EXCEPTION not the rule. Sins of others don't effect us snup. Sorry.

"Have you not read that sin (and it consiquences) is passed down to the third and forth generation."

Have you not read that it doesn't happen that way anymore??

Sorry snup, its clear that Job was sick because it was God's will, nothing more. It wasn't due to some sin he had, it wasn't due to anything other then it was God's will. He was a faithful man who had integrety and shuned evil. Blameless in the sight of God.

 

[SnuP]

Originally posted by LouisBooth
"I cannot type as fast a you so I skimmed the whole chapter to try to keep up."

why? There is no rush to reply. Read the book, don't skim.

"It does not say that it was God's will for him to be sick. "

It was God's will, for he clearly gave Satan the okay.

This statement was in reference to John 9, not Job.

"We are are that way, born in to the death brought in from Adam. And God desires to deliver all of us from that working of death from with in our members."

And that is the EXCEPTION not the rule. Sins of others don't effect us snup. Sorry.

The sin of Adam has affected all of mankind. 

"Have you not read that sin (and it consiquences) is passed down to the third and forth generation."

Have you not read that it doesn't happen that way anymore??

Prove that.  You say that we live in a fallen world and that is why we still get sick.  The new covenent is to christians not the world.  Generational curses are still active in the lives of those who live in darkness.

 

[Pastor N.B.]

Chastisement? "For whom the Lord [loveth] He chasteneth, and [scourgeth EVERY SON THAT HE RECEIVETH]."

Pastor N.B. here:
There are just two forces at work, right? Can we agree on this? In Matt. 4 we see who is in control with the 'permission & up to the restrictions' of the ETERNAL GOSPEL PLAN. (it was being unfolded from Gen. to Rev. +, still is!)

When evil takes place, God takes the credit or blame, whichever way you look at it. That is the BOTTOM LINE for He (THEY) permitted it. Agreed?

Now, the way God brings us back, or wakes us up in the first place is, REMOVING HIS PROTECTION. (look at USA) "Fear is the beginning of wisdon". And Jude 22 tells us how God reaches TWO class in two different ways at least. But, who does the evil work? How about Jobs case! Yet God permitted this to show what a 'gem' Jobe was. {This is FAITH! CHARACTER! THIS IS WHAT GOD [COULD NOT CREATE US WITH], MATURE FAITH. THIS IS DEVELOPED BY THE PROVISIONS OF THE GOSPEL! OK? Phil. 4:13 & 2 Cor. 12:9. If He had, we would not have FREEDOM of choice.)

STILL, the GodHead are the ones in TOTAL controll to remove their protection or not to! But usally the reason was because we the persons needed it for 'testimony' on freedom. This is the way that 'children' develope [CHARACTER] by religous liberty based on LOVE. Read Isa. 5:1-8.

Best leave it at that for now? ---P/N/B/

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Originally posted by SnuP
I though that we were in an agreement on this issue.

I'm sorry that some here are corrupting this thread with their arguements about Ecclesiates.

 

I apologize.  I'm guilty.

 

[Andrew]

its ok quaffie,

think we're back on track now....

 

[Pastor N.B.]

Originally posted by humanimal
How can  you tell the difference?

Ecc 7:15
All this have I seen in my days of vanity: there is a righteous man that perisheth in his righteousness, and there is a wicked man that prolongeth his life in his evil-doing.

****
Hi,
it hard to follow a train of thought pertaing to [your] reading of this inspiration?

But lets look at the 'rightous' professed man? There is ONLY one way to be Rightous & that is found in Rom. 8:1 "There is [no condenmation] to them that are [IN CHRIST JESUS], who walk NOT AFTER flesh, but [after the SPIRIT]." (Converted in other Words! 2 Cor. 3:3)

And the BOTTOM line in Eccl. is in the closing words of his inspired BOOK!

And about the perishing in rightousness? If you look at Israel of old, you will see NO PROBLEM understanding this verse! Read Matt. 23! And it is ONLY Eccl. that [plainly] tells us the end result of 'selfrightousness' 'c'hristians. (there is NO SUCH person who is rightous in, & of themselves. It is impossible! OK?)

But for the proof of this lets read Rev. 3:16-17 about the ones that are re/created with true Agape love at their starting point, (the earnest, downpayment of the Spirit) these that [lost the MATURITY of their character growth].

Christ says: "So then because thou art [lukewarm], (sickening love) and neither cold or hot, [I WILL SPEW (spit!) thee out of my mouth]. (Now for the description of rightous over much?)

Because [thou sayest], [I am RICH, AND INCREASED WITH GOODS, AND HAVE THE *NEED OF NOTHING;] ... (hold it here for a moment? THINK! They say? and Christ does not dis/agree with their knowledge! Or DOCTRINE, or the teaching of the Truth that they have! What is then their problem as seen in your quoted verse of Eccl.//? notice..) ... [AND KNOWEST NOT] that thou ART WRETCHED, AND MISERABLE, AND **BLIND, (of this next TRUTH!) [AND NAKED]." What did Rom. 8:1 say? Whose RIGHTOUSNESS ONLY SAVES ANY PERSON?!

So 'if' one can see this my friend, all these were about like ones getting to heaven by counting rosery beads . Works of [SELF RIGHTOUSNESS] or as the WORDS of Pastor Ecclesiastes was 'Inspired' to preach!!

And the evil man prolonging his life in evil doings?? You have already a clear grasp on this! Moderation. Even he might just as well use these smarts, (see Hosea 4:6 read it slowly) for it won't be long before he is 'eternally removed'?! Obadiah 16.
Yet the verse refers to the ones like of Heb. 6:4-6, that have 'drunk upon my holy mountain' & the Rev. 3:16-17'ers. ---P/N/B/

 

[Andrew]

Hey can we pls stick to the topic of the thread?

MODS help pls?

 

[Stormy]

I do not think that God takes an active hands-on part in everyone's everyday life... every second of that life.

We get sick because of germs.

We get well because our bodies are able to fight off illness.

Or because we know when it is time to go to the Doctor for medicine.

Some things we have to do for ourselfs.

God will not wipe your nose.


I think that the mind has a lot to do with health. At least part of the reason I am healthy is because I am happy and at peace with the problems in my life. My Faith has put everything into the proper perspective.

I do not believe that God creates problems or sickness.

But there is that firm possibility, that God takes the bad, that naturally occurs in our life, and uses it for good.

 

[Andrew]

"I do not believe that God creates problems or sickness.
But there is that firm possibility, that God takes the bad, that naturally occurs in our life, and uses it for good."

Agreed 100%

 

[SnuP]

Originally posted by Stormy
I do not think that God takes an active hands-on part in everyone's everyday life... every second of that life. 

Pray without ciesing.  If God wants us to pray without ciesing, then what are we going to be praying about all of that time.

I believe that God is telling us to have a conversation with Him every moment of the day.  And, I have experience the reality of that conversation.  It is wonderful.  You never loose touch with God.  You never feel like God has left.  And every need that arises no matter how small, is met.  It is wonderful.

 

[Stormy]

SnuP : Please understand that I did not mean to imply that God is not with us at all times. A Christian carries the Spirit of God within his soul.