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Why God Does Not Chasten With Sickness & Death

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by Andrew, Sep 21, 2002.

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  1. tericl2

    tericl2 A Work in Progress

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    James 1:16
    Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren. 17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning.

    Do we receive good or bad from God? This verse answers that plainly.

    James1:6
    But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for he who doubts is like a wave of the sea driven and tossed by the wind.
    7 For let not that man suppose that he will receive anything from the Lord; 8 he is a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways.

    Are you double minded? Do you doubt? According to James, if you do, don't think you will receive anything from God. So, do not be unstable or double minded. Trust in the Lord your God with ALL your heart, mind, soul and body.
     
  2. Rafael

    Rafael Only time enough for love

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    I hope you never get leukemia or have to listen to people tell you your faith is no good or that you are double-minded..........

    I thought that the whole body of scripture was to be used to rightly divide the word of truth. If stripes was to mean that somebody would talk to you wouldn't Jesus have known to make the difference when He said:

    Luke 12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord’s will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
    48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

    Are these scriptures to be done away with?

     
     
  3. SpiritPsalmist

    SpiritPsalmist Heavy lean toward Messianic Supporter

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    Hi Raphe,

    I don't quite follow your ref to Luke 12.  When I read it, it was referring to a servant who knows the right thing to do and does not do it because he does not think the master is coming back any time soon.  That's paraphrased of course. :)

    Anyway, I can fully understand how in our zeal we can come off to those who are hurting as judgemental and insensitive.  I believe I can speak for not only myself in saying, that is not our intent at all.

    I know for myself, that my heart reaches out to you.  To share with you what I have learned in my sufferings.  I am not totally manifesting my healing yet, but according to God's Word, I am healed.

    I don't know how to link to the site where I shared my testimony but if you could find it, it's in the Non-denomination section, p 3 titled Sickness, Faith, and Healing, Page 3). 

    I tried to be as honest as I could about my quest for understanding.  What we allow to come out of our mouths is extremely important.  It DOES make all the difference in the world.  Prov 18:21 says, "death and life are in the power of the tongue." 

    I remember an ex-pastor of mine who was explaining something to someone one day and I was sitting there with them.  He motioned to me and he said, "take her for instance, she's like a bull dog, she gets ahold of something and won't let go until she understands it."

    I knew that God did not want me sick so I set out to find out why I was.  Granted, I eventually ended up in surgery where the doctor made it all go away. . .but I learned a lot about healing in the process.  Painfully I came to the conclusion that not only was my faith not strong enough but I was not even willing to work at it any longer.  As painful as that knowledge was, it was the truth. 

    I know that in your situation you don't have that option.  If you did I know you would have chosen it already.  But your situation is not hopeless.  You are not doomed. 

    It's not wrong to admit to weakness.  We all are weak, just on different issues.  But it is in your weakness that He is made strong.  Get all those verses together about bones, marrow, ect and begin speaking those over yourself.  Let the only words that come out of your mouth be what God's Word says.

    When you have to describe what's going on in your body word it differnetly.  Say the report of the doctor's is. . . but the report of God is I'm healed.

    I wish I could post more but my time at the computer is almost up.  I don't have my own computer so I come to the local library to use their computer.

    I will try and share more tomorrow.  Also, I will respond to your PM.

    Many blessing upon your head Raphe. 

    Lord I thank you that Raphe is drawing closer to You.  And I thank You Lord, that the Fear of the Lord brings health to his bones.  That's a promise from You, Lord, and You are faithful to see through to the end everything that You have started in Him.  He will complete the work that you have called him to.  In Jesus name.

    Bye for now Raphe,

    Barbara
     
  4. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

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    Funny how verses like Ecc 7:14 blow this view out of the water. the bible is so awesome like that. If you study it you will see when things that are not of it like this crop up :)

    "* And if the sick Christian dies eventually, it would mean that he failed to learn God's lesson. And what lesson was so important that it cost him his health, his savings, his marriage and, eventually, his life? What lesson was so important that it made a child fatherless, or a wife without a husband? What lesson was so important that it brought chaos, worry, fear, sorrow and mourning to his loved ones? Does God need to resort to all that?"

    What's funny is you're assuming he didn't learn it. The lesson could have been 1. trust me no matter what or 2. Your sickness doesn't matter serve me despite of it. I'm strenghtening your faith and will continue to do so until you die and come home.
     
  5. Rafael

    Rafael Only time enough for love

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    I'm not against healing as a teaching. I kind of knew I would be misunderstood and the scriptures would be ignored that don't fit in nicely to what one wants to believe of God. He is greater than our judgment of Him, and His Word and mercy stands. I'm comforted by His rod and staff. I would be illegitimate without chastisement and correction that is even greater than that of an earthly father.

    Proverbs 13:24 He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes.

    Isaiah 48:10 Behold, I have refined thee, but not with silver; I have chosen thee in the furnace of affliction.

    Isaiah 30:20 And though the Lord give you the bread of adversity, and the water of affliction, yet shall not thy teachers be removed into a corner any more, but thine eyes shall see thy teachers:
    21 And thine ears shall hear a word behind thee, saying, This is the way, walk ye in it, when ye turn to the right hand, and when ye turn to the left.
     
  6. Andrew

    Andrew Well-Known Member

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    raphe,

    God chastens certainly, in love, but he does it with His Word to our spirits. He does not give sickness and death. If giving sickness and death is one of God's facet, then you must ask yourself why Jesus did not reflect this at all in his earthly ministry? Was He hiding something abt the Father? certainly not!

    "Proverbs 13:24 He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes."

    this is from the book of wisdom -- ie God teaching parents how to discipline their children. U are re-interpreting the word "rod" into sickness and using it for your own situation. Rod here just means rod.

    you can quote from the OC, but you are on this side of the cross now. Jesus has died and risen, so you must interpret scripture in light of what has happened. And what has happened? Christ has taken on YOUR sickness and YOUR pains, so that you dont have to be sick and in pain today. He has suffered this for you. If you can believe that God bore your sins and was punished in your place, then believe also that He took your sicknesses and pains, his body was broken, pierced that yours might be made whole.
     
  7. SavedByGrace3

    SavedByGrace3 Whoever calls on the name of Jesus will be saved Supporter

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    As we have pointed out many times, if people imagine they are being beaten (that is made sick or impoverished) by God for disobediance, then the thing to do is to repent of your rebellion and come back into favor with God. If you are so bad as to require beatings, then the level of your faith is the least of your problems. It is odd when I hear folks confess to the black sin of rebellion so as to jusify their sickness and poverty, and then be upset because someone implies they lack faith. Kind of like having cancer and then getting upset when the doctor tells you that you have a pimple on your nose.
     
  8. SavedByGrace3

    SavedByGrace3 Whoever calls on the name of Jesus will be saved Supporter

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    I guess I am surprised once again that good Christians can be so shallow so as to read Ecclesiastes and not see what is being said. Much of this book is spoken rhetorically, in the sad, depressing, meditative tone of an old, tired, and broken (probably backslidden) man. If you were to sum up the book in one phrase, it would be "what's the use..." or as the broken Solomon put it: "vanity, vanity, all is vanity". God does not intend for you to take this book as a book of Proverbs and use it as a source of wisdom. It is a reference to show you what you do not want to become. How tragic that someone would take this and misguidedly use is as a book of proverbs!!
    Look at these sayings and tell me if this is what God wants you to be like:

    Eccles. 2:24-25 (KJV)
    There is nothing better for a man, than that he should eat and drink,
    and that he should make his soul enjoy good in his labour.
    This also I saw, that it was from the hand of God.
    For who can eat, or who else can hasten hereunto, more than I?

    Is this NT Christianity? NO.


    Eccles. 3:22 (KJV)
    Wherefore I perceive that there is nothing better,
    than that a man should rejoice in his own works;

    for that is his portion:
    for who shall bring him to see what shall be after him?

    This is certainly not what Jesus would have us believe.


    Eccles. 10:19 (KJV)
    A feast is made for laughter,
    and wine maketh merry:
    but money answereth all things.

    Hardly the stuff of NT righteousness and spirituality.

    ]Eccles. 7:13 (KJV)
    Consider the work of God:
    for who can make that straight,
    which he hath made crooked?


    This is an obvious error by Solomon. It is the view of a faithless man who does not believe God (in fact the words "faith" and "trust" do not even occur in the book).
    look at what the true prophet said:
    ]Isaiah 40:4 (KJV)
    Every valley shall be exalted,
    and every mountain and hill shall be made low:
    and the crooked shall be made straight,
    and the rough places plain:


    Isaiah 42:16 (KJV)
    And I will bring the blind by a way that they knew not;
    I will lead them in paths that they have not known:
    I will make darkness light before them,
    and crooked things straight.
    These things will I do unto them,
    and not forsake them.


    Isaiah 45:2 (KJV)
    I will go before thee,
    and make the crooked places straight:
    I will break in pieces the gates of brass,
    and cut in sunder the bars of iron:


    Luke 3:5 (KJV)
    Every valley shall be filled,
    and every mountain and hill shall be brought low;
    and the crooked shall be made straight,
    and the rough ways shall be made smooth;


    Here is one that is definitely against every spiritual rule in the book:
    ]Eccles. 1:18 (KJV)
    For in much wisdom is much grief:
    and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow.


    Finally, is odd that we continually hear 7:14 quoted, but the verses that follow ignored:
    Eccles 7:16
    Be not righteous over much;
    neither make thyself over wise:
    why shouldest thou destroy thyself?


    If we are to consider 7:14 as wisdom, then are we to consider 7:16 also? I don't think so.
    It is obvious that there is something more going on in this book. It is certainly not a book of proverbs to be followed by a spiritual, NT man. It is not the wisdom of a spiritual man. It is the "wisdom" of a carnal man. It is God showing us man's wisdom at it's logical conclusion. It is cynical, depressing, and devoid of spirit.

    And we see believers not getting it.
     
  9. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

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    "It is not the wisdom of a spiritual man. It is the "wisdom" of a carnal man. It is God showing us man's wisdom at it's logical conclusion. It is cynical, depressing, and devoid of spirit. "

    Nope, its the thoughts of a man who has "been there and done that" recounting his thoughs when he did it and summing up by offering Godly wisdom like in 7:14.

    "Finally, is odd that we continually hear 7:14 quoted, but the verses that follow ignored:"

    That is because he switchs here to another topic thus it is him explaining it. Again hobs you're taking verses out of context. He starts again saying, "IN this meaningless life of mine I have seen both of these: a rigtheous man perishing in his righteouness, and a wicked man living long in his wickedness."

    He struggles with the thought of why aren't the righteous rewarded as stated futher on and struggles to make sence of it. He comes to the conclusion in verse 20, saying the same that Paul does in romans.
    "There is not a righteous man on earth who does what is right and never sins."

    His final conclusion in this passage is rightly seen in verse 28 and 29

    "This only have I found: God made mankind upright, but men have gone in search of many schemes."

    What a great book of Godly wisdom!!!! He then after some great Godly wisdom concerning this situation summs up again at the end of the passage in verse 12 and 13 (chapter 8) basiclly seeming to say, I know that it is better to live for God even though I don't see that in this lifetime.

    sorry hobs, I'm not falling for your twising here. Those passages you listed are taken out of context Just as I take your words out of context here:

    Hobs WOF people are wrong aren't they..they are believers, but they aren't getting it are they?

    Hobs: "[the beleivers are] not getting it."

    Yup, correct Hobs, WOF people don't understand the bible at all.


    See how much context matters now?
     
  10. Andrew

    Andrew Well-Known Member

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    Well explained Hobart. Thanks. My Pastor is in agreement too regarding Ecclesiates. :)
     
  11. SpiritPsalmist

    SpiritPsalmist Heavy lean toward Messianic Supporter

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    Louis,

    What is Godly Wisdom to you?

    According to God and His Wisdom see Prov 1:2-7.  Are you saying that God Himself is making these statements that Solomon makes as His very own?

    Is it Godly to get drunk to see how well you can still make right decisions? Is it Godly to say that all of life is useless? Please explain the Godly Wisdom in these statements of Solomon. Do you really believe he is telling you things that you should listen to and copy? Is it Godly to worship other gods just so you can fully understand that God does not like that?

    Where is all the Godly Wisdom here?

    This book is included in our Bible in order for us to see how disobedience works.  We do what God says, and we are under the shadow of the Almighty.  We disobey, we are under the shadow of the law and it's curses.  And we pass it down to our children, and their children.

    As believers He has redeemed us from that curse.  But if we walk in disobedience we are living as "if" we are under law, therefore, reaping what the law reaps, which is  death, everything that leads up to death (spiritually and physically). 

    We reap what we sow. . .that's New Testament.  If we sow disobedience we will reap the wages of disobedience.  If we sow obedience, we reap the wages of obedience.

    We have redemption from all curses.  But we have to take it.  Much like the night in my church when people just began to give things away.  I remember 1 man standing with $100 bill and saying the Lord wants me to give this to someone. Who needs it?  For several seconds, no one raised their hand, including me, who needed it desperately.  Finely someone raised their hand and said, "well, I don't really need it but since no one else will take it, I will." 

    Out of embarrasment I did not want to raise my hand and I missed out on my need being met.  It works basically the same way with redemption.  Christ did it, it's offered to all who take it.  Sadly, some of us just don't take it.  Some of us think that it's not even offered.  :(
     
  12. Pastor N.B.

    Pastor N.B. Member

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    Every son God Receiveth He permits to be chasteneth! Bar none! [IF] they are a PARTAKER?? And what about the others? That is not the question.

    I am 70 in Dec. This number is given in the bible & then perhaps 80? But just maybe not much time remains, if Christ doesn't come first :)? So???

    Hay, 'i' for one am not dead yet! So what is my real problem with chastisement? It might be that these 'partaker' ones have a [hard duty] to do? Call sin by its right name for starters? (try Eze. 33:6) Now, I suggest that these lukwarm 'called Christian ministers' will be the ones guilty of being beaten with many stripes in the burning of hell. Rev. 3:16-17.

    And as very few are found in Eze. 9's prophecy of today? So their chastisment is self destructing. (duty is freely voided out by there lack of Love for the Master)
    And the others? The ones who knew not his Lords will? These ones are not the guilty ones! (try Isa. 56:10) These ministers, the Word of God says, are ALL dumb dogs that cannot bark. It was just too contrary to their loving Christian natures, huh?

    OK: Another slant. We have loved ones who are (sons & daughters) who might be brought to the Master in submission if we died? If this were the case & If we knew the end from the beginning, would we care how or when this came about. (not me)

    OK: One more. [GOD SPAKE AND IT STOOD FAST!!] :clap:
    Personally for me, (and you 'i' think) that settles it! All it takes is for us to ask God, that HIS will be done! There is no sickness that He can not cure! Faith? SURE! We just do not know what is best & ALL TRUE CHRISTIANS leave it there.

    Lord, if it can hasten your work, 'i' ask of you in my Masters name, to just speak the Words, arise and walk to Raphe. Thank you Master for hearing and answering my prayer. ---P/N/B/ (And Master I love you!! Thanks)
     
  13. Pastor N.B.

    Pastor N.B. Member

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    P/N/B/ here:
    Christ's Glory blinded Saul. He received His sight, but perhaps it left its MARKS for keeping him humble? ( :idea: something your post seems to lack)

    In Gal. 4:13-15 we see that from [the start] of his calling, he had this 'infirmity of the flesh'. And he says that he was still received as an angel fron God, even as Christ Jesus. Lovingly that is. And his printed Words of INSPIRATION...
    "for I bear you record, [if it had been possible, [YE WOULD HAVE PLUCKED OUT YOUR OWN EYES, AND GIVEN THEM TO ME.]" -----P/N/B/
     
  14. Rafael

    Rafael Only time enough for love

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    If I give new testament verses, they are ignored or not commented on, and if I give old testament, then I'm pointed back to the new testament. God is sovereign and I will love Him through the good and the bad that I encounter in life. I believe He can heal me or anybody, but I see His will in it all. People judge God and others if someone gets cancer, but would display greater faith in believing that all things work out for good to those that love God and are the called according to His purpose. Satan has to ask permission to touch any of God's elect, and cannot pluck one out of God's hands.
     
  15. SpiritPsalmist

    SpiritPsalmist Heavy lean toward Messianic Supporter

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    Raphe,

    I would be happy to comment on your scriptures if I understood why you believe they apply to you.  I don't.  So I don't know how to respond.

    I believe you've taken alot of different scriptures that talk about punishment and applied to your situation when it does not apply at all. In some cases, maybe.  But when you ask for forgiveness, you're forgiven.

    Yes, you may have to continue to some point to reap what you have sown but from the point of repentance you can begin to sow righteousness, therefore, somewhere down the line, begin reaping righteousness.

     :bow: 
     
  16. Pastor N.B.

    Pastor N.B. Member

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    I read a post some time ago of a gal that questioned Pauls writtings as inspiration also. The waste paper basket is a good place to put this 'wisdom' of this mans post?? (perhaps he just had a bad day) The question marks are not meant for anything other than perhaps the Isa. 14:12-14's one. (if one believes in Isa.?)

    Inspiration tells us [ALL Scripture] is given by the inspiration of God! 2 Tim. 3:16. If that is true, which it is, who does this [beneath] message come from?
    You can find out by believing 1 Cor. 14:32 that the spirits of the prophets [are subject to the prophets]". Yes, it seems that many today do not understand that all 66 books are [STILL THE WORD OF GOD] :cry:
    ----P/N/B/
    ******
     
  17. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

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    "Are you saying that God Himself is making these statements that Solomon makes as His very own?"

    Just as God talked through Peter in Acts or Paul in Galatians, yes, God is talking in those passages.

    "Is it Godly to get drunk to see how well you can still make right decisions? "

    Nope, but Godly wisdom can come from it, and that's exactly what happened in the book of Ecc. He is sharing the Godly wisdom after looking back on his life.

    "Please explain the Godly Wisdom in these statements of Solomon. Do you really believe he is telling you things that you should listen to and copy? "

    Sure no problem. What passage would you like me to start at?


    "This book is included in our Bible in order for us to see how disobedience works. "

    NO its not This book is in the cannon because it has Godly wisdom in it and shows us things to live by, just like every other book in the bible.


    "Christ did it, it's offered to all who take it. Sadly, some of us just don't take it. Some of us think that it's not even offered. "

    Sorry, that's not exactly how it works Quaff. That man who stood up might be in dire need of that 100 but he gave it away because it was God's will for him maybe not to eat fish that week, but eat bread and water. God's will in terms of taking or not taking things is very open. Just because you're sick doesn't mean you're not taking something God is offering, for he doesn't always offer healing.
     
  18. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

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    Pastor, I'd agree with you that hobs interpreation of the passages is dead wrong..why? Two reasons 1. he is inserting what he thinks onto the passages, not taking ideas from the passage. and 2. He is taking verses out of context to make his point.
     
  19. Andrew

    Andrew Well-Known Member

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    "Christ's Glory blinded Saul. He received His sight, but perhaps it left its MARKS for keeping him humble? ( something your post seems to lack)"

    talk about adding to scripture. Why not speculate further?
     
  20. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

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    "talk about adding to scripture. Why not speculate further?"

    As is any explanation to Paul's thorn because it doesn't say Andrew. Its call someone looking at the bible and interpreting it. This view might be wrong, but its not adding to scripture.
     
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