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Why evolution isn't scientific

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dad

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Once again you resort to the flawed logic, "If you can't prove that I'm completely wrong, then I must be right.
No. Forget who or what is wrong or right, and focus on what science KNOWS or not. You can believe whatever you like.
Every single example we have shows animals that fit the current state idea perfectly. You have no evidence, just unsupported claims.
The monster flying birds and creatures of the past and some dinos happen to make better sense in a different natured past. After all we don't see them today!
Yes, take a mechanical engineer who has worked in the UK’s Electricity Research Centre. Yes, CLEARLY he is supremely qualified to talk about how gravity has been significantly different in the past!

Well, bring up your expert/witness. I am ready to grill her or him.
Tell me, what education has he had on the mechanisms of how gravity works? What mechanism does he propose for how gravity changed?
Tell me, why would you think he would know? The only question is what is the best fit with the evidence.
(By the way, I direct your attention to Figure 4 and Table 1 in the source you linked to, which shows the clear relationship of leg bone size to total body size of the animal. This is what is required under the present state laws. Similar sized mammals from before the KT boundary display exactly the same relationships - which would not happen if the laws of nature were different.)
Unless you are claiming some major difference is gravity in the past, how would not the same principles apply then? Now let's give some number to represent the strength of gravity for an example..say the current force and pull or strength of gravity is '10. Now lets say in the past it was 9. How in the world do you think the size of a dino fossil leg would determine what number gravity was at? The general rules of smaller creatures needed somewhat bigger or smaller limbs may apply. But let's see the data that says only present gravity strength would fit all data!? Let's see the centimeters or inches or millimeters of some dino legs and how only that size could possibly fit?
That whole thing is nothing more than an argument from incredulity. He sees the fossils, assumes they couldn't exist under current gravity and then comes up with values for gravity that he thinks works better. Then uses this as evidence that gravity has changed. Where are his other lines of evidence? Where are the stress fractures in rocks from these ages that show more fracturing or less fracturing due to the massive piles of rock on top of them?
? Rocks piling up...where...why ??
And if the size of the earth changed over time as he says, where did that extra material come from?

If it changed and got bigger, we may look at the world of water/mass that earth accumulated from the flood water! (or perhaps we could look at density and mass being affected by a new nature) or..etc etc.

It's been quite a long time since I've seen any reputable scientist propose that idea. Do you actually know what you're talking about, or are you just going to resort to strawmen?
You think it is news that the atmosphere was different?? Ha.

"
Earth’s ancient atmosphere was half as thick as it is today"

http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2016/05/earth-s-ancient-atmosphere-was-half-thick-it-today


Two-billion-year-old salt rock reveals rise of oxygen in ancient atmosphere

The History of Air | Science | Smithsonian

Wait, why do you think that such a method of taking flight is unfeasible?
Well, we could use a different nature or the nature of today to try to explain it all. No one really knows. However since a lot of it makes no real good sense in the present nature, the best option is different!
 
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Kylie

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No. Forget who or what is wrong or right, and focus on what science KNOWS or not. You can believe whatever you like.

And why don't you do the same?

You claim that your DSP idea is correct, but when it comes to actually explaining how things were different, you suddenly have nothing but guesses and assumptions. Seems like when it comes to a different state past, you KNOW nothing!

Of course, you have to keep it vague and undefined. The instant you present something concrete, it can be tested, and you know it will fail any test.

The monster flying birds and creatures of the past and some dinos happen to make better sense in a different natured past. After all we don't see them today!

You seem to have very low standards of evidence. We don't see George Washington today either, so I guess that means that there was another state change. George Washington happens to make better sense in a different natured past. After all we don't see George Washington today!

Well, bring up your expert/witness. I am ready to grill her or him.

24 Experts In "Gravity" • Expertise Finder Network • Sources

Take your pick.

Tell me, why would you think he would know? The only question is what is the best fit with the evidence.

You think he would propose something when he can't even explain how it could work?

Whaddaya think he's gonna do? Make an announcement that gravity has changed, and then when the scientific community asks him questions like "What caused it to change?" and "How could the laws of the universe have been so radically different" he's just gonna shrug and say, "I dunno. But I'm right, dammit!"

Unless you are claiming some major difference is gravity in the past, how would not the same principles apply then? Now let's give some number to represent the strength of gravity for an example..say the current force and pull or strength of gravity is '10. Now lets say in the past it was 9. How in the world do you think the size of a dino fossil leg would determine what number gravity was at? The general rules of smaller creatures needed somewhat bigger or smaller limbs may apply. But let's see the data that says only present gravity strength would fit all data!? Let's see the centimeters or inches or millimeters of some dino legs and how only that size could possibly fit?

How would it know?

Because the stresses it was under would be less.

Are you REALLY trying to get out of this by claiming that the reason that there is no evidence for a DSP is because the differences were so tiny that they can't be detected and thus anything from a DSP looks just like the equivalent version from the current state?

Then WHY are you claiming that such slight differences were enough to increase the lifespan of Humans by a factor of 10?

You want to make the differences small enough to escape detection, yet large enough to have huge impacts. I seriously doubt you have any decent grasp of logic.

? Rocks piling up...where...why ??

Sometimes, when we see rocks, there are other rocks on top of them.

For instance, rocks that are several meters underground.

You know it's not just a thin layer of rock and then nothing underneath, right? Do you understand basic geology?

If it changed and got bigger, we may look at the world of water/mass that earth accumulated from the flood water! (or perhaps we could look at density and mass being affected by a new nature) or..etc etc.

Many words, no substance. Once again, all you have is a bunch of guesswork, with absolutely zero evidence to back up your claims.

You think it is news that the atmosphere was different?? Ha.

What in the world are you talking about?

I was talking about the idea that large dinosaurs had to live in water to support their weight, a claim you made in post 1435. I was saying that not one single reputable scientist has made the claim that large dinosaurs had to use water to support themselves for a very long time.

And you're waffling on about changes in the atmosphere. I have never disagreed with the claim that the Earth's atmosphere was different in the past. However, this does not require the laws of nature to be different. If you are claiming that the laws of nature need to be different to explain a different atmosphere, then it makes as much sense as saying that the laws of nature were different yesterday because yesterday I cooked roast veggies in my oven while today I used the same oven to bake a cake.

Seriously, if you are incapable of following a basic conversation, you should not be participating in a discussion like this.

Well, we could use a different nature or the nature of today to try to explain it all. No one really knows. However since a lot of it makes no real good sense in the present nature, the best option is different!

You are not qualified to say what makes the most sense. Also, this does not explain why you think that the "jump off a cliff and spread wings" is not a feasible method of taking flight.

And this was the tenth post of yours in which you were unable to provide any evidence to support your claims. In fact, you admitted that all you have is a guess.
 
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Kylie

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The issue is when was it born? ince the real time difference between 25 imaginary million years and 70 million imaginary years may be decades or centuries, that moots your point which is again based on your religiously derived so called millions of years.

Once again, you try to get out of it by just making stuff up. No one is convinced by your excuses.

That area could bear some study though as I wonder about the timing also. If the eime of Babel (presumably when the nature change occurred) was say, about 4350 years ago or whatever, and that corresponds with about 60 or 65 million years in so called science dream time, well...you do the math! A creature born about 4355 years ago, and that dies, say 4200 years ago could be dated by you to be 25 million years ago! You see, all you do is impose your beliefs upon isotope ratios. That jig is up. Over. Done.

You provide no evidence to back up your claim that the Time of Babel was the point at which the states allegedly changed.

You provide no evidence to back up the claim that a creature that died 4200 years ago would be dated to 25 million years old.

You make a big noise, but there's nothing of substance.

God created birds if you recall. Not sure why we would expect some strange disproportions? The issue is what was nature like when say that monster gull was unable to simply get out of the water if they landed!?

Why would we expect different proportions?

Well, let me put it this way...

Let's say that the laws of nature were different so that gravity was weaker. Then we would see birds the size of a crow with wings the size of a modern sparrow's wings. Why would the wings be so small? Because with lower gravity, less force is needed to support the bird. Thus the ratio of wing length to body length would be different.

Look, same nature past speculations and straw grasping maybes are NOT answers!

Look, different nature past speculations and straw grasping maybes are NOT answers!

Yet the link I referred to both in my last post and in the post you quote cites NEW estimates that are exactly what I said.

Wow, I bet you missed my point by so much that you couldn't even hear it whooshing past you.

The issue is not whether continents separated, but when and how fast. In my sig pic you can see that I have them all together along with the real times.

Once again, a claim with zero evidence.

In your religion that may be the case. Total belief.

Once again, the tired old "Dismiss differing viewpoints as religion in a weak attempt to discredit them," technique.

Do not abuse the word evidence and try to sluff off your preposterous baseless religious claims for evidence!

Your indignation does not support your position, nor does it invalidate my position. Reality doesn't care about your immature temper tantrums.

The deal is that if man came from some similar creature to a flatworm (ancestor) then why are flatworms still the same?

First of all, there are more than 20,000 different species of flatworm. Only an ignorant would claim they are all the same.

I would explain the concept of speciation to you, but I'm not going to, for two reasons.

First, I believe you lack the scientific understanding to comprehend the concept.

Second, I believe you'd ignore it anyway.

Created kinds could adapt as needed, that was part of how God enabled and equipped us to spread out over the earth. Yet when I see someone claim man descended from sort of a flatworm, and we still see flatworms are the same, one wonders exactly how all the supposed changes from worm to man happened. After all the flatworms are the the same.

So you just pick and choose whether change occurred rapidly or not at all in order to fit the conclusion you've already decided on. That's a terrible way to find the truth.

Different how? Be specific.

Are you actually asking me if something was different? If so, what?

Or is this a part of my post you forgot to either delete or put quote tags around and reply to?

The fossil birds were adapted from the created kind birds, or kinds themselves. Why would we NOT expect modern birds to have some similarity??? The issue with the fossil birds is that presumably very very few types of birds/animals COULD even leaven fossil remains. Therefore similarities do not mean we evolved from the few fossil kinds we see!

So you are claiming that fossil birds are not the ancestors of modern birds, and they just coincidentally look like modern birds?

Of course, when we see convergent evolution (that's the proper name for what you are describing), there are tell-tale traits that give it away. For example, dolphins and sharks. They both look reasonably similar to each other since they are both aquatic predators and thus have to face the same environmental pressures - they have to be able to move easily in water, they have to be able to catch fish. But there are plenty of differences that reveal their different lineages. If birds were the same, then we would see traits in the fossil birds that are not there in modern birds (and don't say teeth, the genes for teeth are still in modern birds), and there are no such traits.
 
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Warden_of_the_Storm

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i meant penguin.

You have been told repeatedly that your idea is completely useless, wrong and frankly idiotic. Why do you insist on repeating it?
 
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dad

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And why don't you do the same?

You claim that your DSP idea is correct, but when it comes to actually explaining how things were different, you suddenly have nothing but guesses and assumptions. Seems like when it comes to a different state past, you KNOW nothing!
I know what God's record of the past and history say. I do not have to explain how Nimrod was born to you to say Nimrod existed because we have a record of the guy. I don't have to explain how God changed nature to know it happened.

Science DOES have to explain why it claims a same nature in the past.
Of course, you have to keep it vague and undefined. The instant you present something concrete, it can be tested, and you know it will fail any test.
Science cannot test anything to do with the forces and laws that existed in the past and doesn't so much as know what they are today! About all they know is that they seem to exist and work a certain way now!

You seem to have very low standards of evidence. We don't see George Washington today either, so I guess that means that there was another state change. George Washington happens to make better sense in a different natured past. After all we don't see George Washington today!
A few hundred years ago is actually well known and documented. No weird changes in nature exist since then. Try to deal in reality.

Great, find one that knows what gravity was like on earth in the past, and let's have at him! I should note that NONE of your experts even know what gravity is!!!!!!! And I daresay every single one of your own witnesses will admit it!

Because the stresses it was under would be less.
We should look at all factors such as how the animals used oxygen, maybe even atmospheric pressure?

" Hence, at sea level, we carry about 6.6 kilograms of weight on every inch of our body."
What is the Weight of Air? | Pitara Kids Network

Then there is the general composition of the soil that footprints are left in. If the consistency of rock and soil was not the same, we could not look at the way a weigh on similar soil would leave a footprint..etc etc.

So far you have not offered a single dino leg width and showed why it had to exist in a nature exactly like the present time!
Are you REALLY trying to get out of this by claiming that the reason that there is no evidence for a DSP is because the differences were so tiny that they can't be detected and thus anything from a DSP looks just like the equivalent version from the current state?

No. It seems to me differences were huge! People do not live 1000 years now for example. The problem on your end is the inability to be able to measure nature in the past. Everything you look at you religiously view as having come about in our nature!
Then WHY are you claiming that such slight differences were enough to increase the lifespan of Humans by a factor of 10?
Dino leg width really is not much
of a measure of nature in the past! Nor does it tell us about the forces that governed atoms at the time, which in turn govern how molecules and cells behave (DNA also of course). There is no way science as of looking at that, and even how it looks at forces and laws right now is limited!

In case it is news, the forces of nature that existed in the past are not able to be seen by science. Science is too small!


Sometimes, when we see rocks, there are other rocks on top of them.

For instance, rocks that are several meters underground.

You know it's not just a thin layer of rock and then nothing underneath, right? Do you understand basic geology?


I understand a point when I see one. Are you trying to get toward one?? What about rocks?
I was talking about the idea that large dinosaurs had to live in water to support their weight, a claim you made in post 1435. I was saying that not one single reputable scientist has made the claim that large dinosaurs had to use water to support themselves for a very long time.

"Decades ago paleontologists imagined that the large sauropods were like hippos in that they spent their time standing in the water so as to support their weight. Back then it was fairly common for mass estimates to be around 100 tons or more. But ever since the paleontologists brought the large dinosaurs out of the water, the mass estimates for large dinosaurs have steadily dropped until now some paleontologists are proposing that the mass of a Brachiosaurus was only 23 tons.

This is unacceptable. Since the paleontology community has taken the position that there is no paradox regarding the dinosaurs being so large, there is an obvious conflict of interest for them when it comes to estimating the masses of the largest dinosaurs.

It may be helpful to learn what is involved in making an estimate of a dinosaur’s mass. To determine the mass of a dinosaur we just need to know its volume and its overall density, since multiplying the volume and density together gives us the mass. Let us start with determining the volume.

The paleontologists have already completed the work of determining the volume of the various dinosaurs. Using the dinosaur skeleton displays as references, paleontologists have filled out the form of these animals. Paleontologists usually work off of computer generated images or full size replicas to determine the volume. .."

The Problem with Big Dinosaurs

Apparently they are changing their tune. However, there are some issues that need to be resolved... such as...from the same link
"
  1. Inadequate bone strength to support the largest dinosaurs
  2. Inadequate muscle strength to lift and move the largest dinosaurs
  3. Unacceptable high blood pressure and stress on the heart of the tallest dinosaurs
  4. Aerodynamics principles showing that the pterosaurs should not have flown"


And you're waffling on about changes in the atmosphere. I have never disagreed with the claim that the Earth's atmosphere was different in the past. However, this does not require the laws of nature to be different. If you are claiming that the laws of nature need to be different to explain a different atmosphere, then it makes as much sense as saying that the laws of nature were different yesterday because yesterday I cooked roast veggies in my oven while today I used the same oven to bake a cake.
Nothing REQUIRES in your mind nature to be different! However the accumulated differences in basic realities of life on earth long ago do add up to things your religion grasps at straws to explain.

You are not qualified to say what makes the most sense. Also, this does not explain why you think that the "jump off a cliff and spread wings" is not a feasible method of taking flight.

Look at gulls today. They sit in the water. It doesn't seem feasible to me that giant birds had to have some extraordinary circumstances to be able to get off the ground or water. Your explanations are contrived and convoluted and strain common sense.
 
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say that we want to add a new system to existing creature. how we will do it by small steps? ...
A lying question from xianghua because he has been given the example of the Evolution of flagella! That is a system that makes a bacteria move which evolved starting with an existing system and making small changes.
 
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..... Looking at some ancient structures, it would make sense to me that gravity was somehow able to be reduced.
A "gravity was somehow able to be reduced" fantasy based on argument from incredibility about the sizes of past birds and flying dinosaurs. It is a fantasy because he gives is no evidence of gravity reducing and does not even think about other consequences.

A evidence-less story that birds were created: Evolution of birds.

An ignorant fantasy that flatworms have been unchanged since they first appeared and this falsifies evolution. Flatworms are a group of species and some have changed. Evolution states that a species that is adapted to an environment does not greatly change.
 
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...If a flatworm is supposed to be the oldest living ancestor of man, why are they still the same now as near the time of creation??

Flatworms Are Oldest Living Ancestors To Those Of Us With Right And Left Sides, Researchers Report In Science
A spate of nonsense from dad.
A "the oldest living ancestor of man" lie. The oldest living ancestor of man would be a bacteria about 4 billion years ago.
A "a flatworm to man" misleading assertion when it is a primitive (different looking!) flat worm species that is an ancestor to all bilateral species including us.

Irrelevancy and ignorance about Bodies Of Tardigrades, Crustaceans Found In Antarctica's Lake Mercer. He writes "arctic" (wrong Pole!). The puzzle is how they got to the lakes and rational, reasonable answers are given
Scientists do not know how the organisms came to be in the icy lake, but the creatures may have lived in nearby ponds and streams during warm periods, when the glaciers retreated 10,000 to 120,000 years ago.

They may have been washed into the lake through rivers under the ice. They may have also been transported into the lake after becoming stuck to a glacier.

An ignorant and evidence-less "actual reality time. (ART)" fantasy. He has another thread that he can use for that fantasy: Real time or evo time? (about 3 years old).
 
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You have done an analysis on all creatures in the fossil record and their legs?...
Ignorance about the burden of proof from dad. He has a evidence-less story about gravity reducing in the past. The burden of proof is on dad to provide the evidence to back up his story.
The obvious fact that reduced gravity has a wide range of biological and physical consequences that would influence the entire Earth and many species is something else for him to explain.

Earth is held in orbit around the Sun by gravity. Gravity reduces. Earth moves further from the Sun. The Sun's heat reduces. The temperature of the Earth falls. Where is this in the climate record? Why did we not get a snowball Earth?

Ignorantly cites an obvious Expanding Earth crank!
A site touting a book is not scientific literature.
A PDF on a site touting a book is not scientific literature.
Stephen Hurrell is a retired, mechanical design engineer.
The crank idiocy of ignoring that the real world is consistent - reducing gravity does not have the only effect of increasing dinosaur sizes. Other species existed. The Earth is in orbit around the Sun. Atmospheric density? More UV reaches the surface? What about trees?

A nonsensical "Then there is the issue of the different atmosphere mix of oxygen etc." question.
 
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dad

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