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Why Evolution is True

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Loudmouth

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I am not a geneticist but I dont think its just about nematodes. Besides aren't they a worm type thing and humans share 75% of their DNA with them.
But I found this article which claims that ERV's may not have been inserted bt retroviruses.
In summary, a very strong case can be made pointing to the view that ERVs were not inserted by retroviruses. They have function, should have been ridden by apoptosis, are different than their ancestral genomes, and it is incredible that the organisms did not die after being infected with so many viral genes. With so many problems, how can evolutionists continue to use ERVs as evidence for evolution?
Do Endogenous Retroviral Sequences (ERVs) Prove Evolution? | EvolutionDismantled.com

Lying creationist sites are not valid references.

First, no one is claiming that they are from retroviruses because they have no function. Whether or not they have function has no bearing on where they came from. Besides, adapting DNA sequences for new tasks is eactly what evolution does, so I find it hard to see why the evolution of DNA for new function is evidence against evolution.

Second, there is absolutely no reason why ever retrovirus integration will result in death. None. That is something the creationists have invented from whole cloth. In fact, we can see ongoing integration of retroviruses in koala populations from a known modern virus.

Genome Biology | Full text | Koala retrovirus: a genome invasion in real time

Well what it may suggest is that some creatures cross bred in the past and had the ability to produce more fertile off springs. So if this is the case then it suggests that this was another mechanism for creating other species besides mutated genes. By mating with another different animal a new species could be produced. Over time they can become more isolated and lose the ability to cross breed and become an independent species. But crossing breed can be another method of transferring genetics that make creatures look like they come from each other besides evolution.

That wouldn't produce the nested hierarchy that we observe.

Some sites with a religious connect are not creationists sites and have valid info which can be substantiated on non religious sites.

Cite the original primary peer reviewed paper. Don't cite blogs. Don't cite popular press books. Cite the scientific reports written by the scientists who did the actual experiments.

Because they are the same species. What other species did they come from if they are the same species. You need two different species to show transitions dont you. This will allow you to show the similar features which connect them together to show transitions. But as I said before there are a number of other reasons this could be like HGT or they just look similar in the way they were made and are totally unrelated ie shark and dolphin. But also with genetics now it is also showing some connection with animals that dont look like they are related and are not according to Darwin's tree of life.

Those other methods would not produce the observed nested hierarchy.

No I am saying because there is so much variation its hard to tell what is variation and what may be transitional if any.

None of the fossils you have named fall within anatomically modern human variation. None. All of the fossils are transitional whether they are split into 3 species or lumped into one. Why? Because they all fit in between the morphology of Australopithecines and anatomically modern humans. All of them.
Evolutionists use to use various skulls as examples of different ape man species to show how the features gradually changed which was suppose to show the transitions into humans. But with the discovery of the skulls at Georgia for example this showed several of those shaped skulls together.

And they are still transitional.

This then brought into question that they were separate species and thus transitionals.

They are transitional whether they are split into 3 species or lumped in 1. They are transitional because they have human-like features not found in earlier hominids and more ape-like features not found modern humans.

As Shakespeare once wrote, a rose by any other name . . .

So suddenly they lost several transitionals they had made.

They are still transitional.

Well they could if it was proven. But thats the problem its not completely.

Just admit that you will not accept any fossil evidence for evolution, and be done with it.

It is suppose to show transitions from an ape to a human. How do we know that all the Australopithecines are just variations of apes and all the homos are just variations of humans with a few questionable ones in between because of other reasons like deformities or just have very strong features.

Just more excuses as to why you will never accept fossil evidence.

Humans are variations of apes. H. erectus is a variation of human, but not a modern human. A fossil can be a variation of ape or human and still be transitional between us and a common ancestor shared with chimps.

How do we know that some of the so called species didn't come from HGT and thus didn't evolve from a previous one but were the result of cross breeding two different species to produce a new one. That would mean that that particular new species didn't evolve through natural selection which takes away evolution.

Genetics demonstrates a hierarchial pattern that refutes HGT.

There can be variations if transitions are true between species. Not everyone looks the same and we have many different variations. But there is a difference between variations of the same species and different features gradually stepping towards changing into a new species. Because the changing features will gradually show the additions of the new type of creature its turning into.

Every addition you will either call a malformation, or a variation. You have done that very thing in this thread.

So if a Dino is changing into a bird the prominent feature that will make it a transition will be the wings. But variations with a Dino species may also show feathers and some wing like features and it is still a dino and may have never been going to change into a bird. That is the problem its hard to definitely tell.

A fossil with a mixture of non-avian dinosaur features and avian features is transitional, by definition.

Well we see some similar features but we dont know if thats just because of the way they were made. There are similar features between a dolphin and a shark but one is a mammal and they are not closely related. So similar features alone doesn't make them transitional.

What similar features? Be specific.

Common features does not only mean common decent. It can also mean common design.

A nested hierarchy of common and divergent features does point to common ancestry in the same way that matching fingerprints at a crime scene to a suspect is evidence of guilt.

Your argument boils down to, "Even if all of the evidence is consistent with evolution, I still won't accept it."
 
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Paul of Eugene OR

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I believe all primordial soup theory is based on the miller urey experiment which I believe created some primitive amino acids. However there are many sources as to the fact that this experiment is overrated and by and large "old news"

The primordial soup theory was around before the Miller-Urey experiment and after as well. The Miller-Urey experiment consisted of setting up primordial soup and seeing what would happen.
 
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Loudmouth

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I try to research as best I can and get some understanding.

Then I would strongly suggest staying away from creationists sites. They lie . . . a lot.

I am wondering if you have any qualifications on genetics. Don't they say that the so called junk DNA isn't junk and they are finding more and more function for it all the time.

The problem is that their definition of "functional" includes junk DNA. They claim that if a DNA sequence participates in a biochemical reaction inside of the cell, then it has function. Junk DNA will participate in biochemical reactions, such as low level and non-specific mRNA transcription. Using their definition, the garbage in your kitchen garbage can has function because it is chemically reacting with the oxygen in your kitchen. IOW, in order for large portions of the human genome to have function you have to loosen the definition of function to the point that it no longer has meaning.



I would say a person would have to be very trained in genetics to comment on this subject themselves without any backup. Even then it would be good to have some support. To be able to make rebuttals from your own say so with as much confidence as you are doing seems to be a little over confident.

Here is backup, if you need it. Notice that it is a peer reviewed article from a real scientific journal.

A recent slew of ENCyclopedia Of DNA Elements (ENCODE) Consortium publications, specifically the article signed by all Consortium members, put forward the idea that more than 80% of the human genome is functional. This claim flies in the face of current estimates according to which the fraction of the genome that is evolutionarily conserved through purifying selection is less than 10%. Thus, according to the ENCODE Consortium, a biological function can be maintained indefinitely without selection, which implies that at least 80 - 10 = 70% of the genome is perfectly invulnerable to deleterious mutations, either because no mutation can ever occur in these "functional" regions or because no mutation in these regions can ever be deleterious. This absurd conclusion was reached through various means, chiefly by employing the seldom used "causal role" definition of biological function and then applying it inconsistently to different biochemical properties, by committing a logical fallacy known as "affirming the consequent," by failing to appreciate the crucial difference between "junk DNA" and "garbage DNA," by using analytical methods that yield biased errors and inflate estimates of functionality, by favoring statistical sensitivity over specificity, and by emphasizing statistical significance rather than the magnitude of the effect. Here, we detail the many logical and methodological transgressions involved in assigning functionality to almost every nucleotide in the human genome. The ENCODE results were predicted by one of its authors to necessitate the rewriting of textbooks. We agree, many textbooks dealing with marketing, mass-media hype, and public relations may well have to be rewritten.
On the Immortality of Television Sets: “Function” in the Human Genome According to the Evolution-Free Gospel of ENCODE



What about this site. To be honest I dont really understand ERV's completely and will have to do a lot more reading.
Identification and classification of endogenous retroviruses in the canine genome using degenerative PCR and in-silico data analysis

A good page for laymen is this one:

ERVs - Evidence for the Evolutionary Model
 
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Loudmouth

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Mutations happen but they are limited to changes within what is already there. They are mainly negative and dont add new info.

You keep making this claim, but never back it up. You are making up facts in order to have some fake justification for rejecting evolution.
 
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justlookinla

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The primordial soup theory was around before the Miller-Urey experiment and after as well. The Miller-Urey experiment consisted of setting up primordial soup and seeing what would happen.

It's best to be very suspicious of the guesses and suppositions of how and when life began, and the guesses and suppositions concerning the creation of humanity from one of the alleged single life forms by only naturalistic mechanisms. Ultimately, those are anti-theist worldviews perpetrated on the populace with the support of the atheist agenda.
 
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Loudmouth

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I/m Impressed that it is an ancient creature that once walked this earth. But we are looking back on a fossil of a creature. It is not here for us to examine and test.

It is here for us to examine and test. It has a mixture of features from terrestrial tetrapods and lobe finned fish. It is transitional by definition.

For every evidence you can submit for evolution someone can also put forward other reasons as well that can show it is just one of the many creatures that use to walk this earth.

Just like someone could claim that God plants DNA and fingerprints at crime scenes, so we should just ignore forensic science. Someone can say it, but there is no reason that anyone should accept it.

Other questions would be why do we still have amphibians and walking fish.

Do you really think that if evolution were true we would only have one species on the whole of the Earth?

I mean who said it even crawled out of the water onto land and became a land dwelling animal. It looks like a flat head fish even. Where are all the other intermediates that would have occurred to gradually evolve it to a full four legged and toed animal.

Another example of you ignoring the fossil evidence.

What next? We only found 5 fingerprints at a crime scene instead of thousands, so we have to throw out the fingerprint evidence?

Besides that foot prints were found of a tetrapod 20 millions years before tiktaalik was even suppose to exit the water as a land animal. So this already brings into question their position.

Transitional does not mean ancestral.

"In looking for the gradations by which an organ in any species has been perfected, we ought to look exclusively to its lineal ancestors; but this is scarcely ever possible, and we are forced in each case to look to species of the same group, that is to the collateral descendants from the same original parent-form, in order to see what gradations are possible, and for the chance of some gradations having been transmitted from the earlier stages of descent, in an unaltered or little altered condition."--Charles Darwin, "On the Origin of Species"

For transitional species, that is what we are looking for, the transimission of transitional features in sister taxa. Nowhere does the definition for transitional require the species to be in a direct ancestral line to later species. The transitional nature of the fossil is determined by morphology, and morphology alone.
 
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Loudmouth

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tiktaalik is a fish as the name signifies:

Tiktaalik is a fish with features from terrestrial tetrapods. That makes it a transitional by every definition in the book.


states casey luskin regarding this secular image found at evolution news and views:

You are quoting a lawyer on the subject of biology? Seriously?

Why don't you quote real scientists and real papers for a change.
 
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Paul of Eugene OR

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It's best to be very suspicious of the guesses and suppositions of how and when life began, and the guesses and suppositions concerning the creation of humanity from one of the alleged single life forms by only naturalistic mechanisms. Ultimately, those are anti-theist worldviews perpetrated on the populace with the support of the atheist agenda.

Discovering what God actually did is NOT being anti-theist.

However, it may happen to conflict with your present ideas about what God actually did. I'll grant you, that is something you should worry about.
 
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Loudmouth

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Then where do the new species come from. If there were no birds originally where did they come from if they didn't come from another species that eventually turned into a bird.

"Bird" isn't the name of a species. Until humans came along, there weren't any species called birds. What you need to realize is that anytime you describe a group of species you are talking about humans arbitrarily grouping species together.

In biology, the only objective taxonomic level is species. That's it. Everything above species is man made.

I realize that there may have been a number of other transitions along the way which should also be classified as other species as well before it eventually becomes a bird. But if you consider that at one stage you have a creature with no wings and then there is a creature with wings its a new creature.

The problem is that you refuse to accept a species with a mixture of dino and bird features as a transitional.

Then where are all the transitional fossils if it takes several generations of transitions showing the wings for example gradually becoming fully extended and functional wings.

Why should we show you those fossils when you will just call them malformations and variations?

Then if they are limited to what genetics are . . .

Another baseless assertion. You have never shown this.

Then can you give me examples. I have heard of the bacteria that can now eat nylon but as far as I have read this is something that is within their current genetics. They are still bacteria.

You sure are certain about things you know nothing about.


If this is the case then it is limited to what is already there and cant add new info outside the gene pool some of which is needed if the creatures are going to change into new ones.

Like transitional fossils, I am betting that no observation will be adequate for you.
 
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Loudmouth

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The point is how does life start from nothing. Its like saying your garage produced a car from nothing and it drove itself down the road.

Abiogenesis is production of life from already existing molecules.

Evolution is production of biodiversity from already existing species.

Thats the good thing about God He is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. He doesn't start change the goal posts all the time.

God is not the Bible. Men wrote the Bible.
 
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justlookinla

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Discovering what God actually did is NOT being anti-theist.

However, it may happen to conflict with your present ideas about what God actually did. I'll grant you, that is something you should worry about.

In your view, could only naturalistic mechanisms create humanity from a single life form? I understand you believe God was involved at some level, but do you think that humanity could be a creation of only naturalistic mechanisms...no God involved?
 
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Paul of Eugene OR

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In your view, could only naturalistic mechanisms create humanity from a single life form? I understand you believe God was involved at some level, but do you think that humanity could be a creation of only naturalistic mechanisms...no God involved?

Because God is always involved in everything, nothing can ever happen without, somehow, God being involved, so your question makes no sense.

Is it possible for the laws of physics and chemistry, operating without any alteration on the universe as it was when the earth was made, to achieve the evolution of mankind? Of course it is. That is, if God so made them that they were able to do that.

Evidence seems to suggest that is exactly what God did.
 
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PsychoSarah

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I personally liked your references to quantum mechanics.

Many do not believe quantum mechanics is accurate because it's confusing. However this is an argument from personal incredulity/or argument from ignorance. Just because it doesn't make sense doesn't mean it's not true.

I don't agree that our logos created the universe, however. I believe THE LOGOS created the universe, namely the preexistant Christ.

Logos isn't an entity
 
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AV1611VET

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Logos isn't an entity
Non-KJVOs would disagree with you.

In their way of thinking,* Jesus Christ is a personification of the Logos, which is the highest form of Greek logic.

In reality, New Agers teach that the Solar Logos periodically sends avatars to the earth during different periods of time.

Avatars which include Jesus, Buddha, and Krishna.

* Someone correct me if I'm wrong, please. It's been awhile since I've studied the New Age Movement.
 
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PsychoSarah

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Non-KJVOs would disagree with you.

In their way of thinking,* Jesus Christ is a personification of the Logos, which is the highest form of Greek logic.

In reality, New Agers teach that the Solar Logos periodically sends avatars to the earth during different periods of time.

Avatars which include Jesus, Buddha, and Krishna.

* Someone correct me if I'm wrong, please. It's been awhile since I've studied the New Age Movement.

I can personify death, anger, etc, as well. Logic, by the way, in and of itself is neither good nor evil, and while people can view Jesus as the personification of logic (personally, I think Jesus personifies generosity and self sacrifice better) it doesn't mean Jesus literally = logic.
 
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AV1611VET

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I can personify death, anger, etc, as well. Logic, by the way, in and of itself is neither good nor evil, and while people can view Jesus as the personification of logic (personally, I think Jesus personifies generosity and self sacrifice better) it doesn't mean Jesus literally = logic.
In the meantime, [the] Logos is considered by some to be an entity.
 
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createdtoworship

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Tiktaalik is a fish with features from terrestrial tetrapods. That makes it a transitional by every definition in the book.




You are quoting a lawyer on the subject of biology? Seriously?

Why don't you quote real scientists and real papers for a change.

if casey luskin states misinformation (not being a scientist), this should be all the more motivation for you to actually respond the the details of what he said, not blow it off. You give no proof of anything other than your opinion.
 
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createdtoworship

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The primordial soup theory was around before the Miller-Urey experiment and after as well. The Miller-Urey experiment consisted of setting up primordial soup and seeing what would happen.

thats very true, it's just the miller-urey didn't do what it set out to do.
 
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