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And there are those who choose evil and that is what they become which is why there is no universal salvation they cannot be redeemed and must be separated.Evil is not a thing that can be redeemed in the first place. Evil is like darkness it is the opposite of light . Evil is anything that is not of God , God is light evil is darkness.
You are right Joe Biden is not relevant to any post that I contribute to, so why did you bring him into this thread twice?You're about the same age as Joe Biden and he has no idea what he's talking about a lot of the time. It's irrelevant.
Thanks for pointing out that the EO translates things correctly.…..I doubt there is anyone better qualified than the team of native Greek speaking scholars, translators of the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible [EOB], quoted above and below, to know the correct translation of the Greek in the N.T.
Link to EOB online:
…..The Greek word “kolasis” occurs only twice in the N.T., 1st occurrence Matt 25:46, above, and 2nd occurrence 1 John 4:18., below.The New Testament ( The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
The New Testament (The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible)archive.org
Right about here is where we should be seeing source cited relevant quotes from each of these people. See e.g.I have seen no evidence annihilationism was taugth in the early Church. Metaphysically and theologically, it seems like a dubious concept, as well.
Some form of universal reconciliation was taught by several ECF's, including Origen, Maximus, Isaac the Syrian, etc.
Prior to and after Augustine, the church, in both the east and west, believed in ECT, as did nearly all of the early church fathers.Eph 5:1 "Therefore be imitators of God as beloved children" IN the early church there were 3 schools of thought UR, Annihilation . and ECT . How we imitate God in our actions will depend on our view of God. UR view God as a loving Father and the great physician, they saw Jesus as God in the flesh and he is our example . Jesus loved the down trodden was friend of tax collectors and sinners, feed the hungry healed the sick and showed the love of the Father to a sick world , he even said on the cross to the very people who were killing him "father forgive them for they do not know what they are doing. They believed in Apokatastasis and that Jesus was the savior of the world not the potential savior. Jesus was meek and humble of heart willing to take on the role of servant even washing his followers feet. they were non violent and that is how they saw God and tried to imitate that in their lives because they saw God in that. Then comes along Augustine, He couldn't read Greek only Latin and had some bad translations and did not see God as a loving Father but a God no different than the other Greek Gods just more powerful . ECT sees God as a God who loves and hates is jealous and even got to the point that he was sorry he made man. ( as if God made a mistake) He is also no different from the other Gods in that he had all this wrath that needed to be taken out on someone and Jesus stepped in and took Gods wrath in our place and if you cross him he will torcher you forever. When Augustine / Justinian/ Constantine gained power and combined religion and government and took control they were imitators of their view of God, if God can kill and torcher his enemies they should also , the killing of those who disagree was an acceptable norm. So if you were to put 2 people in a room one believes in loving your enemies and praying for them and one believes that killing you enemies is ok who comes out the winner? UR doesn't believe that you advance Gods kingdom by the sword but on your knees so fighting back is not an option. Now for about 1500 years ECT ruled by the sword and even when so far as to try to stamp out those who oppose them, they even have had 1500 years of "scholars" who have written many volumes of books saying we are correct and if you don't agree with us you may die and all opposition is silenced its no wonder that that view had dominated the western church. Fortunately in todays world they are no longer killing us who have a different view and we have the internet to read the very things that have been hidden for so many years, we can go and read the early church Fathers and find out what they believed and read things that we didn't even know existed . I went to a 4 year Bible college and these early church writings were never even alluded to or studied. The cat is out of the bag now and the information that is available is growing, and I now know for a fact that Apokatastasis is Gods heart and his scripture is the grand story of how he is completing what he started a long time ago.
Right about here is where we should be seeing source cited relevant quotes from each of these people. See e.g.
•Second Clement 5:5 [A.D. 150])."If we do the will of Christ, we shall obtain rest; but if not, if we neglect his commandments, nothing will rescue us from eternal punishment"• (Second Clement ibid., 17:7)"But when they see how those who have sinned and who have denied Jesus by their words or by their deeds are punished with terrible torture in unquenchable fire, the righteous, who have done good, and who have endured tortures and have hated the luxuries of life, will give glory to their God saying, ‘There shall be hope for him that has served God with all his heart!’".•Ignatius of Antioch[a student of John]"Corrupters of families will not inherit the kingdom of God. And if they who do these things according to the flesh suffer death, how much more if a man corrupt by evil teaching the faith of God for the sake of which Jesus Christ was crucified? A man become so foul will depart into unquenchable fire: and so will anyone who listens to him" (Letter to the Ephesians 16:1–2 [A.D. 110]).• Justin Martyr"No more is it possible for the evildoer, the avaricious, and the treacherous to hide from God than it is for the virtuous. Every man will receive the eternal punishment or reward which his actions deserve. Indeed, if all men recognized this, no one would choose evil even for a short time, knowing that he would incur the eternal sentence of fire. On the contrary, he would take every means to control himself and to adorn himself in virtue, so that he might obtain the good gifts of God and escape the punishments"• (First Apology 12 [A.D. 151])."We have been taught that only they may aim at immortality who have lived a holy and virtuous life near to God. We believe that they who live wickedly and do not repent will be punished in everlasting fire" (ibid., 21)."[Jesus] shall come from the heavens in glory with his angelic host, when he shall raise the bodies of all the men who ever lived. Then he will clothe the worthy in immortality; but the wicked, clothed in eternal sensibility, he will commit to the eternal fire, along with the evil demons" (ibid., 52).• The Martyrdom of Polycarp"Fixing their minds on the grace of Christ, [the martyrs] despised worldly tortures and purchased eternal life with but a single hour. To them, the fire of their cruel torturers was cold. They kept before their eyes their escape from the eternal and unquenchable fire"• (Martyrdom of Polycarp 2:3 [A.D. 155]).Mathetes"When you know what is the true life, that of heaven; when you despise the merely apparent death, which is temporal; when you fear the death which is real, and which is reserved for those who will be condemned to the everlasting fire, the fire which will punish even to the end those who are delivered to it, then you will condemn the deceit and error of the world" (Letter to Diognetus 10:7 [A.D. 160]).• Athenagoras"[W]e [Christians] are persuaded that when we are removed from this present life we shall live another life, better than the present one. . . . Then we shall abide near God and with God, changeless and free from suffering in the soul . . . or if we fall with the rest [of mankind], a worse one and in fire; for God has not made us as sheep or beasts of burden, a mere incidental work, that we should perish and be annihilated" (Plea for the Christians 31 [A.D. 177]).• Theophilus of Antioch"Give studious attention to the prophetic writings [the Bible] and they will lead you on a clearer path to escape the eternal punishments and to obtain the eternal good things of God. . . . [God] will examine everything and will judge justly, granting recompense to each according to merit. To those who seek immortality by the patient exercise of good works, he will give everlasting life, joy, peace, rest, and all good things. . . . For the unbelievers and for the contemptuous, and for those who do not submit to the truth but assent to iniquity, when they have been involved in adulteries, and fornications, and homosexualities, and avarice, and in lawless idolatries, there will be wrath and indignation, tribulation and anguish; and in the end, such men as these will be detained in everlasting fire" (To Autolycus 1:14 [A.D. 181])• Irenaeus[Student of Polycarp, a student of John]"[God will] send the spiritual forces of wickedness, and the angels who transgressed and became apostates, and the impious, unjust, lawless, and blasphemous among men into everlasting fire" (Against Heresies 1:10:1 [A.D. 189])."The penalty increases for those who do not believe the Word of God and despise his coming. . . . t is not merely temporal, but eternal. To whomsoever the Lord shall say, ‘Depart from me, accursed ones, into the everlasting fire,’ they will be damned forever" (ibid., 4:28:2).• Tertullian"After the present age is ended he will judge his worshipers for a reward of eternal life and the godless for a fire equally perpetual and unending"• (Apology 18:3 [A.D. 197])."Then will the entire race of men be restored to receive its just deserts according to what it has merited in this period of good and evil, and thereafter to have these paid out in an immeasurable and unending eternity. Then there will be neither death again nor resurrection again, but we shall be always the same as we are now, without changing. The worshipers of God shall always be with God, clothed in the proper substance of eternity. But the godless and those who have not turned wholly to God will be punished in fire equally unending, and they shall have from the very nature of this fire, divine as it were, a supply of incorruptibility" (ibid., 44:12–13).• Hippolytus"Standing before [Christ’s] judgment, all of them, men, angels, and demons, crying out in one voice, shall say: ‘Just is your judgment!’ And the righteousness of that cry will be apparent in the recompense made to each. To those who have done well, everlasting enjoyment shall be given; while to the lovers of evil shall be given eternal punishment. The unquenchable and unending fire awaits these latter, and a certain fiery worm which does not die and which does not waste the body but continually bursts forth from the body with unceasing pain. No sleep will give them rest; no night will soothe them; no death will deliver them from punishment; no appeal of interceding friends will profit them" (Against the Greeks 3 [A.D. 212]).• Minucius Felix"I am not ignorant of the fact that many, in the consciousness of what they deserve, would rather hope than actually believe that there is nothing for them after death. They would prefer to be annihilated rather than be restored for punishment. . . . Nor is there either measure nor end to these torments. That clever fire burns the limbs and restores them, wears them away and yet sustains them, just as fiery thunderbolts strike bodies but do not consume them" (Octavius 34:12–5:3 [A.D. 226]).• Cyprian of Carthage"An ever-burning Gehenna and the punishment of being devoured by living flames will consume the condemned; nor will there be any way in which the tormented can ever have respite or be at an end. Souls along with their bodies will be preserved for suffering in unlimited agonies. . . . The grief at punishment will then be without the fruit of repentance; weeping will be useless, and prayer ineffectual. Too late will they believe in eternal punishment, who would not believe in eternal life" (To Demetrian 24 [A.D. 252]).• Lactantius"[T]he sacred writings inform us in what manner the wicked are to undergo punishment. For because they have committed sins in their bodies, they will again be clothed with flesh, that they may make atonement in their bodies; and yet it will not be that flesh with which God clothed man, like this our earthly body, but indestructible, and abiding forever, that it may be able to hold out against tortures and everlasting fire, the nature of which is different from this fire of ours, which we use for the necessary purposes of life, and which is extinguished unless it be sustained by the fuel of some material. But that divine fire always lives by itself, and flourishes without any nourishment. . . . The same divine fire, therefore, with one and the same force and power, will both burn the wicked and will form them again, and will replace as much as it shall consume of their bodies, and will supply itself with eternal nourishment. . . . Thus, without any wasting of bodies, which regain their substance, it will only burn and affect them with a sense of pain. But when [God] shall have judged the righteous, he will also try them with fire" (Divine Institutes 7:21 [A.D. 307]).• Cyril of Jerusalem"We shall be raised therefore, all with our bodies eternal, but not all with bodies alike: for if a man is righteous, he will receive a heavenly body, that he may be able worthily to hold converse with angels; but if a man is a sinner, he shall receive an eternal body, fitted to endure the penalties of sins, that he may burn eternally in fire, nor ever be consumed. And righteously will God assign this portion to either company; for we do nothing without the body. We blaspheme with the mouth, and with the mouth we pray. … Since then the body has been our minister in all things, it shall also share with us in the future the fruits of the past" (Catechetical Lectures 18:19 [A.D. 350])• Origen De Principiis Book 1 - Ch 1 [a.d. 185-230-254.]
5. After these points, also, the apostolic teaching is that the soul, having a substance6 and life of its own, shall, after its departure from the world, be rewarded according to its deserts, being destined to obtain either an inheritance of eternal life and blessedness, if its actions shall have procured this for it, or to be delivered up to eternal fire and punishments, if the guilt of its crimes shall have brought it down to this:
.
I learned to read when FDR was president and I'm pretty sure you said, "nearly all." So, what I would like to see is properly cited quotes from at least one more ECF than I quoted. I quoted 15 ECF, I'm almost certain that cannot be done.I never said all ECF's taught universal reconciliation, just some.
I learned to read when FDR was president and I'm pretty sure you said, "nearly all." So, what I would like to see is properly cited quotes from at least one more ECF than I quoted. I quoted 15 ECF, I'm almost certain that cannot be done.
I went back and checked before I posted and I read "nearly all." So, I'll settle for at least 7 ECF who taught UR with direct quotes and correct citations, name of writing, chapter, section, etc. numbers.I said "several", not "nearly all".
I went back and checked before I posted and I read "nearly all." So, I'll settle for at least 7 ECF who taught UR with direct quotes and correct citations, name of writing, chapter, section, etc. numbe
Edit: My bad another poster wrote "nearly all."It's sufficient that several ECF's believed in universal reconciliation or apokatastasis.
The main reason is that they don’t interpret the Bible as a whole, but rather just cherry-pick certain words out of certain passages that they don’t even understand the context of to begin with, and so they end up assuming those words mean something other than what they actually do in those passages. I wrote a long study (which I linked to in a thread I started a few weeks ago) demonstrating this quite clearly, and some have read the study and been converted to Universalism, but nobody who has read it has been able to refute it yet (and I truly believe nobody who bases their theology strictly on the Bible alone ever could).Eph 5:1 "Therefore be imitators of God as beloved children" IN the early church there were 3 schools of thought UR, Annihilation . and ECT . How we imitate God in our actions will depend on our view of God. UR view God as a loving Father and the great physician, they saw Jesus as God in the flesh and he is our example . Jesus loved the down trodden was friend of tax collectors and sinners, feed the hungry healed the sick and showed the love of the Father to a sick world , he even said on the cross to the very people who were killing him "father forgive them for they do not know what they are doing. They believed in Apokatastasis and that Jesus was the savior of the world not the potential savior. Jesus was meek and humble of heart willing to take on the role of servant even washing his followers feet. they were non violent and that is how they saw God and tried to imitate that in their lives because they saw God in that. Then comes along Augustine, He couldn't read Greek only Latin and had some bad translations and did not see God as a loving Father but a God no different than the other Greek Gods just more powerful . ECT sees God as a God who loves and hates is jealous and even got to the point that he was sorry he made man. ( as if God made a mistake) He is also no different from the other Gods in that he had all this wrath that needed to be taken out on someone and Jesus stepped in and took Gods wrath in our place and if you cross him he will torcher you forever. When Augustine / Justinian/ Constantine gained power and combined religion and government and took control they were imitators of their view of God, if God can kill and torcher his enemies they should also , the killing of those who disagree was an acceptable norm. So if you were to put 2 people in a room one believes in loving your enemies and praying for them and one believes that killing you enemies is ok who comes out the winner? UR doesn't believe that you advance Gods kingdom by the sword but on your knees so fighting back is not an option. Now for about 1500 years ECT ruled by the sword and even when so far as to try to stamp out those who oppose them, they even have had 1500 years of "scholars" who have written many volumes of books saying we are correct and if you don't agree with us you may die and all opposition is silenced its no wonder that that view had dominated the western church. Fortunately in todays world they are no longer killing us who have a different view and we have the internet to read the very things that have been hidden for so many years, we can go and read the early church Fathers and find out what they believed and read things that we didn't even know existed . I went to a 4 year Bible college and these early church writings were never even alluded to or studied. The cat is out of the bag now and the information that is available is growing, and I now know for a fact that Apokatastasis is Gods heart and his scripture is the grand story of how he is completing what he started a long time ago.
I may be jumping in late here, but your concept of addressing the topic not the person is foreign to Scripture. Jesus addressed the pharisees quite personally, to the point of calling them pretty vile things.These latter accusations do not conclusively show that your previous accusations were valid. You might be more correct if you confine yourself to showing anything I said is incorrect. Address the topic not the person.
Aren't some of those men who loved darkness rather than light also posting in this chat? If they can be restored/redeemed....And there are those who choose evil and that is what they become which is why there is no universal salvation they cannot be redeemed and must be separated.
John 3:19
And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
Only if they are a troll deceiving the forum.Aren't some of those men who loved darkness rather than light also posting in this chat? If they can be restored/redeemed....
How can you restore a person when they reject what they need? Well, that's the entire reason the cross and empty tomb are so crucial. I loved darkness, sawdust. LOVED it. After my divorce (and 12 years of being a practicing Calvinist), I fell away from God HARD. I loved objectifying women visually. Loved drinking. Loved drugs. Love fornicating with multiple women whether it hurt them or not. Loved lying to my boss to get a day off when I didn't feel like working. Loved lying to people to make them see me as someone I wasn't (see 'fornicating with multiple women' above).Only if they are a troll deceiving the forum.
You might be confusing those who live in darkness due to ignorance with those who actually love darkness.
How can you restore a person when the very thing they need to be free is the very thing they reject?
John 8:32
And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
By your own admission you were ignorant of the power of the Cross and therefore you were deluded. But you were already saved for you said you were a Calvinist and therefore had been drawn to Christ even if you were ignorant of His work and it's meaning for your life. You may well have thought you loved the darkness in your years of teenage rebellion but what teenager doesn't think they hate their parents at some point?How can you restore a person when they reject what they need? Well, that's the entire reason the cross and empty tomb are so crucial. I loved darkness, sawdust. LOVED it. After my divorce (and 12 years of being a practicing Calvinist), I fell away from God HARD. I loved objectifying women visually. Loved drinking. Loved drugs. Love fornicating with multiple women whether it hurt them or not. Loved lying to my boss to get a day off when I didn't feel like working. Loved lying to people to make them see me as someone I wasn't (see 'fornicating with multiple women' above).
I only learned recently that I was a prisoner to these things that I loved. I've come to understand that the Blood, Cross, and Resurrection are more than "get out of hell free" cards. They actually have liberated me FROM that darkness that I loved so I'm able, by His power living inside/through me, to come to love the light. Slowly but surely...
"But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory" (2 Cor 3:18)
And live more and more each day in His will, dying daily to my own selfish desires (crucifying myself... for it is often quite painful and difficult) to come to grow in love of the God who delivered me. No, I don't think I'm sinless. I do believe that I've been delivered from it's power. He who has died has been set free from sin. (Romans 6 speaks to this)
I see the truth in the verse you've posted to be absolutely true. True in the sense that I see how much I loved darkness. Truth in the sense that I now know that Christ has IN FACT set me free from bondage. It is unbelief that causes me to fall now. Not desire. I crave righteousness now. I hunger for it. Thirst for it. And Jesus promises that I will be filled.
There was no ignorance in my love of darkness, my friend. I actually loved it. So maybe I'm the only person in the chat here who felt that way. But where there's one....
I suspect most people here, if they did a truly unbiased self analysis, would discover that they, too, actually loved the darkness they were in. They knew it was wrong. Their conscience bearing witness. But they did it anyway. Because they loved it. They loved it because they were/are a prisoner and have not realized that Christ has already set them free. But I do believe that one day, they will realize that. Because God's grace is immeasurable. Amen!
By your own admission you were ignorant of the power of the Cross and therefore you were deluded. But you were already saved for you said you were a Calvinist and therefore had been drawn to Christ even if you were ignorant of His work and it's meaning for your life. You may well have thought you loved the darkness in your years of teenage rebellion but what teenager doesn't think they hate their parents at some point?
There is a huge gap between being deceived by the darkness and truly loving the darkness (evil). If you truly loved evil you would never have even so much as contemplated being a Calvinist. It would have been impossible for the Father to draw you to Christ. You would have constantly and consistently rejected any attempts God made to show you the truth because only those who learn from the Father can be drawn.
John 6:44 - 45
No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’ Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.
Most people feel sorry for themselves and would rather sin because it's easier to do than pay the price of righteousness and from a human perspective, who can blame them, this is a cruel and harsh world run by a megalomaniac but it solves nothing. On top of that, there is the fatal flaw of the sin nature at work in the flesh making it impossible not to sin apart from the power of the Holy Spirit.
If you think what you said above makes you a lover of evil then I strongly suspect you have never truly encountered real evil. I pray you never seems like evil in God's mind is not nearly as evil in yours. To love sin of any sort is to love evil. God doesn't distinguish mass murder from lying and neither should we.
God does not distinguish mass murder from lying. There is no difference between evil and what you call "real" evil.By your own admission you were ignorant of the power of the Cross and therefore you were deluded. But you were already saved for you said you were a Calvinist and therefore had been drawn to Christ even if you were ignorant of His work and it's meaning for your life. You may well have thought you loved the darkness in your years of teenage rebellion but what teenager doesn't think they hate their parents at some point?
There is a huge gap between being deceived by the darkness and truly loving the darkness (evil). If you truly loved evil you would never have even so much as contemplated being a Calvinist. It would have been impossible for the Father to draw you to Christ. You would have constantly and consistently rejected any attempts God made to show you the truth because only those who learn from the Father can be drawn.
John 6:44 - 45
No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’ Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.
Most people feel sorry for themselves and would rather sin because it's easier to do than pay the price of righteousness and from a human perspective, who can blame them, this is a cruel and harsh world run by a megalomaniac but it solves nothing. On top of that, there is the fatal flaw of the sin nature at work in the flesh making it impossible not to sin apart from the power of the Holy Spirit.
If you think what you said above makes you a lover of evil then I strongly suspect you have never truly encountered real evil. I pray you never do.
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