Why doesn't the NWT want us singing songs to Jesus?

[ChetSinger]

In Christian Bibles, Ephesians 5:19 typically says something like this:

addressing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody to the Lord with your heart - ESV

The Lord has been identified as Jesus Christ in chapter 1. So this verse is exhorting us to sing and make melody to Jesus.

But the NWT version of the same verse says this:

speaking to yourselves with psalms and praises to God and spiritual songs, singing and accompanying yourselves with music in your hearts to Jehovah - NWT

The NWT adds the phrase "to God", and changes "the Lord" to "Jehovah".

But the Greek texts match the Christian versions, not the Watchtower versions. This can be verified by going to Ephesians 5:19 Greek Texts and Analysis and clicking on the "Greek" tab, which will show multiple Greek versions.

My question is, why would the NWT make this change? Is there anything wrong with singing and making melody to Jesus?

 

[Rescued One]

The Mormons weren't teaching my children to sing Jesus Loves Me, so I taught it to them at home.

 

[joneysd]

In Christian Bibles, Ephesians 5:19 typically says something like this:



The Lord has been identified as Jesus Christ in chapter 1. So this verse is exhorting us to sing and make melody to Jesus.

But the NWT version of the same verse says this:



The NWT adds the phrase "to God", and changes "the Lord" to "Jehovah".

But the Greek texts match the Christian versions, not the Watchtower versions. This can be verified by going to Ephesians 5:19 Greek Texts and Analysis and clicking on the "Greek" tab, which will show multiple Greek versions.

My question is, why would the NWT make this change? Is there anything wrong with singing and making melody to Jesus?

I believe they have to change the scripture as they do not believe Jesus is God, they believe Jesus was the arch angel michael, the NWT is generally taken as a very biased attempt at rewriting the bible and when you consider only the JW'S use it perhaps that speaks volumes about it's uses and honesty, apparently all the scripture that leans toward Jesus being God are altered.

 

[Ran77]

The Mormons weren't teaching my children to sing Jesus Loves Me, so I taught it to them at home.

Wow. Do you have to turn every thread into an attack against the LDS?


:o

 

[joneysd]

Wow. Do you have to turn every thread into an attack against the LDS?


:o

wow do you have to take everything that is said about the LDS as an attack!

 

[timewerx]

The Gospels minus Paul's epistles doesn't support the idea too.

The disciples together with Jesus sung a hymn (Matthew 26:30). Which makes it pretty obvious, they weren't singing to Jesus either, but to God.

Since it would sound pretty funny for Jesus to change the lyrics of a hymn and address it to himself!

It's possible Paul's reference to "Lord" was actually referring to God the Father.

It's interesting to note that Jesus did not give importance to music as Paul did and is supported by the fact that Jesus and His disciples only sang a hymn together only once throughout His ministry. The disciples did praise God publicly, but only once but I don't think it can be considered an act of singing. It wasn't a Sunday affair either.

 

[joneysd]

The Gospels minus Paul's epistles doesn't support the idea too.

The disciples together with Jesus sung a hymn (Matthew 26:30). Which makes it pretty obvious, they weren't singing to Jesus either, but to God.

Since it would sound pretty funny for Jesus to change the lyrics of a hymn and address it to himself!

It's possible Paul's reference to "Lord" was actually referring to God the Father.

It's interesting to note that Jesus did not give importance to music as Paul did and is supported by the fact that Jesus and His disciples only sang a hymn together only once throughout His ministry. The disciples did praise God publicly, but only once but I don't think it can be considered an act of singing. It wasn't a Sunday affair either.

so why didn't Jesus tell the disciples he was Michael, especially when it was announced by the spirit that he was the messiah.

 

[tezboski99]

Hey, ChetSinger. Good morning to you. I just read Ephesians 1 and it's talking about both GOD and Jesus. (note that he referres to them as 2 different people)

Ephesians 1 NIV
"Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God,
To God’s holy people in Ephesus, the faithful in Christ Jesus:
2 Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Praise for Spiritual Blessings in Christ

3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace 8 that he lavished on us. With all wisdom and understanding, 9 he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10 to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment—to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ.
11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12 in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.
Thanksgiving and Prayer

15 For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all God’s people, 16 I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. 17 I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. 18 I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in his holy people, 19 and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is the same as the mighty strength 20 he exerted when he raised Christ from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, 21 far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every name that is invoked, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. 22 And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, 23 which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way."

Paul clearly expressed that praise go to "the GOD and Father" of Jesus in verse 3. Verse 2 he sends greeting from both GOD and Jesus. Verse 17 identifies that the Father is "the GOD of our Lord Jesus". Verse 22 identifies the Father as the One who placed "all things" under Jesus.

The entire chaper 1 is about 2 people. Chapter 5 verses 18b-20 are, I've noticed, somtimes translated as 1 full sentence. So, in effect you have taken a portion of a full thought or sentence, depending on your translation, out of proper context.

Ephesians 5:18b-20 NIV
"Instead, be filled with the Spirit, 19 speaking to one another with psalms, hymns, and songs from the Spirit. Sing and make music from your heart to the Lord, 20 always giving thanks to God the Father for everything, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.

"Instead, be filled with the Holy Spirit, 19 singing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs among yourselves, and making music to the Lord in your hearts. 20 And give thanks for everything to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ."-NLT

Either way the entire point of his thought was to give all praise and thanks to the Father who is "the GOD and Father of our Lord Jesus" in everything.

As to the grammatical points you raised regarding the comparison from the NWT to the greek manuscripts this is the entire article from the WOL.JW.org official site that answers your question.

http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1001060076

P.S.

The last thought in verse 9 highlighted in red is that Paul knew "GOD's mystery" so he should know what he was talking about.

 

[drstevej]

JWs teach that Jesus is not God, therefore for them to worship Jesus would be deemed idolatry.

I worship Jesus unashamedly! He is God and has been eternally.

 

[joneysd]

JWs teach that Jesus is not God, therefore for them to worship Jesus would be deemed idolatry.

I worship Jesus unashamedly! He is God and has been eternally.

Amen.

 

[tezboski99]

JWs teach that Jesus is not God, therefore for them to worship Jesus would be deemed idolatry.

I worship Jesus unashamedly! He is God and has been eternally.

I myself have no particular issue with the verses used to support the Trinity. It's just that the bible also says that Jesus has a GOD that he worships. That just doesn't seem to "fit".

Ephesians 1:3 NIV
"Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ..."

Ephesians 1:17 NIV
"I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father..."

2 Corinthians 1:3 NIV
"Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of compassion and the God of all comfort.."

Even the resurrected Jesus said he has a GOD.

John 20:17 NIV
"Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God."

The only explanation ever offered to me was, "it's a mystery". Is there any reasonable explanation anyone can offer?

 

[joneysd]

I myself have no particular issue with the verses used to support the Trinity. It's just that the bible also says that Jesus has a GOD that he worships. That just doesn't seem to "fit".

Ephesians 1:3 NIV
"Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ..."

Ephesians 1:17 NIV
"I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father..."

2 Corinthians 1:3 NIV
"Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of compassion and the God of all comfort.."

Even the resurrected Jesus said he has a GOD.

John 20:17 NIV
"Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God."

The only explanation ever offered to me was, "it's a mystery". Is there any reasonable explanation anyone can offer?

the only thing Jesus ever does it direct people to God, that is the soul purpose of the word as he is referred to, so every example he ever gives will do just that.

 

[ChetSinger]

Hey, ChetSinger. Good morning to you.

Hello and good morning to you too!

Paul clearly expressed that praise go to "the GOD and Father" of Jesus in verse 3. Verse 2 he sends greeting from both GOD and Jesus. Verse 17 identifies that the Father is "the GOD of our Lord Jesus". Verse 22 identifies the Father as the One who placed "all things" under Jesus.

I agree completely. Verse 3 is technically "blessings" instead of "praise", but they're similar enough I won't quibble about that.

The entire chaper 1 is about 2 people. Chapter 5 verses 18b-20 are, I've noticed, somtimes translated as 1 full sentence. So, in effect you have taken a portion of a full thought or sentence, depending on your translation, out of proper context.

Ephesians 5:18b-20 NIV
"Instead, be filled with the Spirit, 19 speaking to one another with psalms, hymns, and songs from the Spirit. Sing and make music from your heart to the Lord, 20 always giving thanks to God the Father for everything, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.

"Instead, be filled with the Holy Spirit, 19 singing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs among yourselves, and making music to the Lord in your hearts. 20 And give thanks for everything to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ."-NLT

Either way the entire point of his thought was to give all praise and thanks to the Father who is "the GOD and Father of our Lord Jesus" in everything.

I think placing the verses together doesn't change the meaning: we're to "sing and make music from your heart to the Lord". And the Lord has been identified as Jesus. Changing "the Lord" to "Jehovah" removes Jesus from the passage, in effect telling us to sing only to God. Why does the NWT delete Jesus from receiving songs and melodies? I'm going to guess it's because the Watchtower believes it improper to sing and make melody to an angel, thus requiring the deletion. Do you know if I'm on the money?

 

[ChetSinger]

It's possible Paul's reference to "Lord" was actually referring to God the Father.

How, when Jesus is identified as the Lord in verse 1:3, as is typical in his letters?

It's interesting to note that Jesus did not give importance to music as Paul did and is supported by the fact that Jesus and His disciples only sang a hymn together only once throughout His ministry.

I think that's a fallacious conclusion. Using that logic, you could conclude that Jesus never washed his hair because the NT doesn't record it.

 

[tezboski99]

Hello and good morning to you too!


I agree completely. Verse 3 is technically "blessings" instead of "praise", but they're similar enough I won't quibble about that.


I think placing the verses together doesn't change the meaning: we're to "sing and make music from your heart to the Lord". And the Lord has been identified as Jesus. Changing "the Lord" to "Jehovah" removes Jesus from the passage, in effect telling us to sing only to God. Why does the NWT delete Jesus from receiving songs and melodies? I'm going to guess it's because the Watchtower believes it improper to sing and make melody to an angel, thus requiring the deletion. Do you know if I'm on the money?

I can't paste an active link due to the status of my account being relatively new. If you copy and past the address into your browser it takes you to an article on the WOL.JW.org website. (Watchtower Online Library) This article discusses in depth this verse and a few others as well.

http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1001060076

The article is long so I didn't want to post a super long 1/2 book post that even I wouldn't read.

 

[ChetSinger]

I can't paste an active link due to the status of my account being relatively new. If you copy and past the address into your browser it takes you to an article on the WOL.JW.org website. (Watchtower Online Library) This article discusses in depth this verse and a few others as well.

http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1001060076

The article is long so I didn't want to post a super long 1/2 book post that even I wouldn't read.

Thanks, but I already looked at that. Aside from listing this passage as one of the places the NWT replaces Lord with Jehovah, it didn't provide any information specific to it.

 

[Phantasman]

In Christian Bibles, Ephesians 5:19 typically says something like this:



The Lord has been identified as Jesus Christ in chapter 1. So this verse is exhorting us to sing and make melody to Jesus.

But the NWT version of the same verse says this:



The NWT adds the phrase "to God", and changes "the Lord" to "Jehovah".

But the Greek texts match the Christian versions, not the Watchtower versions. This can be verified by going to Ephesians 5:19 Greek Texts and Analysis and clicking on the "Greek" tab, which will show multiple Greek versions.

My question is, why would the NWT make this change? Is there anything wrong with singing and making melody to Jesus?

To me, I don't see a difference in the message, but I can see how a literalist would. It's just like I don't understand why Trinitarians don't just drop the word Jesus and use God instead.

 

[ChetSinger]

To me, I don't see a difference in the message, but I can see how a literalist would. It's just like I don't understand why Trinitarians don't just drop the word Jesus and use God instead.

I think the Watchtower did see a difference, which is why they replaced the Lord (Jesus) with Jehovah in Eph 5:19.

What's interesting to me is that I suspect I know why it was done. There's no specific OT passage being quoted in Eph 5:19, but it is telling us to sing and make melody to the Lord (Jesus). Since the Watchtower's Jesus is just an angel perhaps singing to him is just not proper. If that's the reason it's a blatant example of eisegesis. But without confirmation I'm guessing.

 

[tezboski99]

I think the Watchtower did see a difference, which is why they replaced the Lord (Jesus) with Jehovah in Eph 5:19.

What's interesting to me is that I suspect I know why it was done. There's no specific OT passage being quoted in Eph 5:19, but it is telling us to sing and make melody to the Lord (Jesus). Since the Watchtower's Jesus is just an angel perhaps singing to him is just not proper. If that's the reason it's a blatant example of eisegesis. But without confirmation I'm guessing.

This is the paragraph that explains their rendering along with the cited sources used for confirmation of the rendering regarding this specific verse.

"To avoid overstepping the bounds of a translator into the field of exegesis, we have been most cautious about rendering the divine name in the Christian Greek Scriptures, always carefully considering the Hebrew Scriptures as a background. We have looked for agreement from the Hebrew versions to confirm our rendering."

J7 Christian Greek Scriptures in 12 languages, including Heb., by Elias Hutter, Nuremberg, 1599.

J8 Christian Greek Scriptures, Heb., by William Robertson, London, 1661.
J13 Christian Greek Scriptures, Heb., by A. McCaul, M. S. Alexander, J. C. Reichardt and S. Hoga, London, 1838.
J16 Christian Greek Scriptures, Heb., by J. C. Reichardt and J. H. R. Biesenthal, London, 1866.
J23 Christian Greek Scriptures, Heb., by J. Bauchet, Rome, 1975.
"Thus, out of the 237 times that we have rendered the divine name in the body of our translation, there is only one instance where we have no agreement from the Hebrew versions. But in this one instance, namely, 1Co 7:17, the context and related texts strongly support rendering the divine name.—See 1Co 7:17 ftn, “Jehovah.”"

 

[ChetSinger]

This is the paragraph that explains their rendering along with the cited sources used for confirmation of the rendering regarding this specific verse.

"To avoid overstepping the bounds of a translator into the field of exegesis, we have been most cautious about rendering the divine name in the Christian Greek Scriptures, always carefully considering the Hebrew Scriptures as a background. We have looked for agreement from the Hebrew versions to confirm our rendering."

J7 Christian Greek Scriptures in 12 languages, including Heb., by Elias Hutter, Nuremberg, 1599.

J8 Christian Greek Scriptures, Heb., by William Robertson, London, 1661.
J13 Christian Greek Scriptures, Heb., by A. McCaul, M. S. Alexander, J. C. Reichardt and S. Hoga, London, 1838.
J16 Christian Greek Scriptures, Heb., by J. C. Reichardt and J. H. R. Biesenthal, London, 1866.
J23 Christian Greek Scriptures, Heb., by J. Bauchet, Rome, 1975.
"Thus, out of the 237 times that we have rendered the divine name in the body of our translation, there is only one instance where we have no agreement from the Hebrew versions. But in this one instance, namely, 1Co 7:17, the context and related texts strongly support rendering the divine name.—See 1Co 7:17 ftn, “Jehovah.”"

OK, but aside from telling me they're cautious, their statement is information-free. There are no reasons given why such a replacement should be done in Eph 5:19.

So let me try another tack: do you yourself think it's proper to sing and make melody to Jesus? If not, why not?