Why doesn't the NWT want us singing songs to Jesus?

[tezboski99]

OK, but aside from telling me they're cautious, their statement is information-free. There are no reasons given why such a replacement should be done in Eph 5:19.

So let me try another tack: do you yourself think it's proper to sing and make melody to Jesus? If not, why not?

Regarding the statement itself, verification can be confrimed through the sources cited. Thus, it isn't exegesis or a theologically predetermined preferrence that influenced the rendering but thorough research that can be verified should anyone wish to.

I myself don't have any strong feelings either way. I actually can't sing worth 2 cents and don't like doing it personally. I sing as a part of worship similar to cleaning toilets when I'm asked to do so. Jehovah's Witnesses are generally looked as as "odd" due to our beliefs but we're regular people too. Some don't like to speak publicly, some don't enjoy going door to door, some don't like to read. I don't like singing. We do it out of love for GOD and obedience.

There are songs that feature both Jehovah and Jesus but like Ephesians 5:20 says we give thanks for everything to the Father.

 

[ChetSinger]

Regarding the statement itself, verification can be confrimed through the sources cited. Thus, it isn't exegesis or a theologically predetermined preferrence that influenced the rendering but thorough research that can be verified should anyone wish to.

Sources from 1599, 1661, 1838, 1866, and 1975? And every single one of them is presumably someone's translation from Greek into Hebrew, because Greek manuscripts are the only ones in existence. And does any one of them do that substitution in Ephesians 5:19? Do you see the flaw here? There is no manuscript support for that replacement in Eph 5:19. And even following WT guidelines, Eph 5:19 is not a quotation from the OT. So why was it done? Because the WT teaches that angels shouldn't be sung to?

I myself don't have any strong feelings either way. I actually can't sing worth 2 cents and don't like doing it personally. I sing as a part of worship similar to cleaning toilets when I'm asked to do so. Jehovah's Witnesses are generally looked as as "odd" due to our beliefs but we're regular people too. Some don't like to speak publicly, some don't enjoy going door to door, some don't like to read. I don't like singing. We do it out of love for GOD and obedience.

There are songs that feature both Jehovah and Jesus but like Ephesians 5:20 says we give thanks for everything to the Father.

OK, but is it kosher to sing to Jesus, like the Greek Eph 5:19 says?

 

[Phantasman]

I think the Watchtower did see a difference, which is why they replaced the Lord (Jesus) with Jehovah in Eph 5:19.

What's interesting to me is that I suspect I know why it was done. There's no specific OT passage being quoted in Eph 5:19, but it is telling us to sing and make melody to the Lord (Jesus). Since the Watchtower's Jesus is just an angel perhaps singing to him is just not proper. If that's the reason it's a blatant example of eisegesis. But without confirmation I'm guessing.

That could be. Personally, I don't use a name for God, since He is God undistinguished, beginning-less so didn't need one, and he is my God not my buddy. He names, I don't.

We sing with our hearts, not our mouths. This lets the deaf and dumb enjoy it also.

 

[tezboski99]

Sources from 1599, 1661, 1838, 1866, and 1975? And every single one of them is presumably someone's translation from Greek into Hebrew, because Greek manuscripts are the only ones in existence. And does any one of them do that substitution in Ephesians 5:19? Do you see the flaw here? There is no manuscript support for that replacement in Eph 5:19. And even following WT guidelines, Eph 5:19 is not a quotation from the OT. So why was it done? Because the WT teaches that angels shouldn't be sung to?"

Luke didn't cite his sources at all but we still take his gospel as legitimate. The Septuagint is pretty old and is taken as an acceptable source for many materials. There are plenty of other materials that are cited from the same relative period 1500's-late 1900's on a regular basis that are accepted and accredited all the time. Reasonably, does the date of the source really matter that much? Not to me.

Fairly, if I'm not mistaken, neither of us are accredited Greek, Hebrew, or Aramaic scholars are we? Does that stop GOD from revealing Himself to either of us? Should it? Does my own lack of knowlege of ancient languages prevent GOD from fulfilling His promise? Of course NOT!!

"OK, but is it kosher to sing to Jesus, like the Greek Eph 5:19 says"

I myself haven't seen or read anything stating either way defining if it's "kosher" or not. It's a good question. You could likely find a definitive answer of some sort on the WWW.wol.jw.org website.

 

[Meta Tron]

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[Meta Tron]

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[yogosans14]

Well if you look at the actual Greek and Hebrew vs the NWT, you can see it doesn't want anything relating to Jesus deity.

 

[tezboski99]

Well if you look at the actual Greek and Hebrew vs the NWT, you can see it doesn't want anything relating to Jesus deity.

A fair reasonable person would also come to the conclusion that while it's not "traditional" or "mainstream" that the translation is VALID and on solid accurate grounds.

 

[Phantasman]

A fair reasonable person would also come to the conclusion that while it's not "traditional" or "mainstream" that the translation is VALID and on solid accurate grounds.

I believe this as well. We can only have a perception of spiritual things. While "God" or "a God" changes perceptions, it shouldn't matter to them that we still follow the message. Love God above all things and your neighbor as yourself. Follow Christs example. Perception of things unseen and unknowable shouldn't distract from the key message. We are children, not all knowing adults.

 

[joneysd]

A fair reasonable person would also come to the conclusion that while it's not "traditional" or "mainstream" that the translation is VALID and on solid accurate grounds.

No it is not valid and it is not solid, that's why the only group who use it are the group who had it written.

 

[ChetSinger]

A fair reasonable person would also come to the conclusion that while it's not "traditional" or "mainstream" that the translation is VALID and on solid accurate grounds.

I know of no one other than the Watchtower who supports changing "Lord" to "Jehovah" in Eph 5:19.

I think the replacement was obviously driven by theology, because it wasn't driven by any manuscript evidence. Christians don't sing to angels, so if the Watchtower believes Jesus is an angel, it makes sense they'd object to Eph 5:19. What's telling to me is that they feel free to change the text when they find the theology in it objectionable.

 

[drstevej]

τω κυριω = the Lord

Translating this as Jehovah is going beyond the meaning of kurios and is speculation.
Indeed is is theologically driven paraphrase.

eisegesis = reading your views into the text so that it looks authoritative.

 

[tezboski99]

I know of no one other than the Watchtower who supports changing "Lord" to "Jehovah" in Eph 5:19.

I think the replacement was obviously driven by theology, because it wasn't driven by any manuscript evidence. Christians don't sing to angels, so if the Watchtower believes Jesus is an angel, it makes sense they'd object to Eph 5:19. What's telling to me is that they feel free to change the text when they find the theology in it objectionable.

I'm not sure if anyone else caught this but in his rebuttal a few posts back there was another bible not translated by the Watchtower or used by Jehovah's Witnesses that used the same reading.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
But speak to yourselves in Psalms and hymns and songs of The Spirit; be singing in your hearts to THE LORD JEHOVAH.

This is where being fair and reasonable comes into play. It has nothing to do with how "smart" a person is. Being fair and reasonable doesn't mean you have to agree but rather, simply see another point of view. This is a quality that the Pharisees didn't have at all. They were not only biased but also blinded to the point when Jesus did heal a person right in front of them they still refused to believe him or acknowlege anything he did as having merit.

Don't reflect the attitudes of the Pharisees my friends.

 

[yogosans14]

I believe this as well. We can only have a perception of spiritual things. While "God" or "a God" changes perceptions, it shouldn't matter to them that we still follow the message. Love God above all things and your neighbor as yourself. Follow Christs example. Perception of things unseen and unknowable shouldn't distract from the key message. We are children, not all knowing adults.

Are you even looking at the original greek or just going along with the NWT just to satisfy your needs?We cant change the Bible just to suit our beliefs. Mine as well call yourself a Jehovahs Witnesses because you sure act like one.

 

[tezboski99]

Are you even looking at the original greek or just going along with the NWT just to satisfy your needs?We cant change the Bible just to suit our beliefs. Mine as well call yourself a Jehovahs Witnesses because you sure act like one.

How exactly do all of us allegedly act? I think this is a rather broad, objectionable, mildly offensive, and outright biased thing to say about anyone really.

Original greek translation rules support that John 1:1c should legitimately be translated as "a god" but it isn't because that doesn't "support the trinity". Isn't that the main example of exegesis?

 

[Phantasman]

Are you even looking at the original greek or just going along with the NWT just to satisfy your needs?We cant change the Bible just to suit our beliefs. Mine as well call yourself a Jehovahs Witnesses because you sure act like one.

I am going to assume you made that last comment because you are an Orthodox believer. Anyone who doesn't follow the Orthodox belief is usually referred to as "Heretics" or categorized into a religion that is non Orthodox of the accusers choice.

Many Orthodox Christians are quick to judge others. Just look at these forums and you will see line after line of Orthodox Christians attacking anything that doesn't agree with them. But how many JWs and Mormons are attacking the Orthodox Christians? Read and tell me who is more patient and not resorting to slander and mockery. It sure isn't the Orthodox believers from what I've read.

I read all early Christian scriptures. I have access to dozens of different translations of the Bible. I don't know Greek or need to. Because I have faith through Christ that if I seek (in my own language), I will find. If you don't have faith to seek truth, then you choose who you think has done it in a way you believe. Maybe you are one of those that trusts everyone you meet. I trust only one exclusively.

I am not a JW. But I love them for the works that they do in the name of Christ and God. So continue your crusade against those who love Christ. Judging, condemning, especially those who seek because they see God differently, and don't do it as you or the doctrine you follow does.

 

[yogosans14]

I am going to assume you made that last comment because you are an Orthodox believer. Anyone who doesn't follow the Orthodox belief is usually referred to as "Heretics" or categorized into a religion that is non Orthodox of the accusers choice.

Many Orthodox Christians are quick to judge others. Just look at these forums and you will see line after line of Orthodox Christians attacking anything that doesn't agree with them. But how many JWs and Mormons are attacking the Orthodox Christians? Read and tell me who is more patient and not resorting to slander and mockery. It sure isn't the Orthodox believers from what I've read.

I read all early Christian scriptures. I have access to dozens of different translations of the Bible. I don't know Greek or need to. Because I have faith through Christ that if I seek (in my own language), I will find. If you don't have faith to seek truth, then you choose who you think has done it in a way you believe. Maybe you are one of those that trusts everyone you meet. I trust only one exclusively.

I am not a JW. But I love them for the works that they do in the name of Christ and God. So continue your crusade against those who love Christ. Judging, condemning, especially those who seek because they see God differently, and don't do it as you or the doctrine you follow does.

Ephesians 2:8-9--8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

They believe in Salvation by works, if you dont go to door to door you will be murdered at Armageddon. And you say Orthodox judges LOL. You must have never been into a kingdom hall, they always down other orthodox churches and say that they are controlled by Satan and anyone who is a part of them has no chance of salvation. I'm not making this up either.

Anyways I used to deny the Trinity to till I finally came to understand it with the help of the holy Spirit.

 

[ChetSinger]

I'm not sure if anyone else caught this but in his rebuttal a few posts back there was another bible not translated by the Watchtower or used by Jehovah's Witnesses that used the same reading.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
But speak to yourselves in Psalms and hymns and songs of The Spirit; be singing in your hearts to THE LORD JEHOVAH.

I wouldn't expect any translation whose title includes the term "in Plain English" to be a scholarly resource.

If you want some verifiable translations, here's "The Apostolic Acts and Epistles, from the Peshito or Ancient Syriac" by John Wesley Etheridge. Galatians to Philemon can be found here. Ephesians 5:19 reads just like the Greek:

And discourse with yourselves with psalms and with hymns and with
songs of the Spirit, singing with your hearts unto the Lord.

Ephesians 5 of the Dr George Lamsa Bible can be found here. It also agrees with the Greek:

Speaking to your souls in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, sing with your heart to the Lord,

Dr. James Murdock's translation of the Western Peshitto can be found here. Again, it agrees with the Greek:

And converse with yourselves in psalms and hymns; and with your hearts sing to the Lord, in spiritual songs.

Really, tezboski99, doesn't the Watchtower just change whatever's necessary to make sure their Bibles match their theology? I think this verse is a perfect example. We can't have any singing to the angel Michael now, can we?

 

[yogosans14]

I wouldn't expect any translation whose title includes the term "in Plain English" to be a scholarly resource.

If you want some verifiable translations, here's "The Apostolic Acts and Epistles, from the Peshito or Ancient Syriac" by John Wesley Etheridge. Galatians to Philemon can be found here. Ephesians 5:19 reads just like the Greek:




Ephesians 5 of the Dr George Lamsa Bible can be found here. It also agrees with the Greek:




Dr. James Murdock's translation of the Western Peshitto can be found here. Again, it agrees with the Greek:




Really, tezboski99, doesn't the Watchtower just change whatever's necessary to make sure their Bibles match their theology? I think this verse is a perfect example. We can't have any singing to the angel Michael now, can we?

Amen

I was doing my Bible reading in John 20 today and its so clear what Thomas meant when he said "My Lord and my God"!he didnt even rebuke him. I love my God and Savoir Jesus

 

[Phantasman]

Ephesians 2:8-9--8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

They believe in Salvation by works, if you dont go to door to door you will be murdered at Armageddon. And you say Orthodox judges LOL. You must have never been into a kingdom hall, they always down other orthodox churches and say that they are controlled by Satan and anyone who is a part of them has no chance of salvation. I'm not making this up either.

Anyways I used to deny the Trinity to till I finally came to understand it with the help of the holy Spirit.

So you stop with Ephesians and disregard all the other scriptural text in which works are mentioned as applying faith? A good one is:

James 2
14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

I don't take single verses to offer truth, but the whole of the message. Paul said you can't receive it by works alone in Ephesians, as the next verse says to perform good works:

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.