Why does Mormonism want to be Associated with Christianity?

[Ran77]

I am not going to look back . . .

Okay. Our conversation is finished.

 

[Ran77]

Once again...no pre existing material. Nothing but a vacuum.

Ahem, vacuum is composed of matter. Even the vast gulfs between galaxies contains matter.

Apples to kitty cats.

Endlessly repeating this will not make it true.

Again, those balls of fiery energy originated from nothing more than the will of God. Nothing. No pre-existing matter. Apples to kitty cats.

First - Where is your proof of this?

Second - This utterly fails as an argument. I state that the LDS understanding of God is that He can send fiery balls through space and your response is that the fiery balls is the will of God. That does nothing to refute my statement. In this case it is apples to kitty cats because your response is to a completely different issue.

I wish it were so. However, your god was once a man. Mine was not. Apples to kitty cats.

It is entirely possible that Jesus is not your God. I don't plan to refute that. However, Jesus was once man. Jesus is God. And most importantly God was a man in the same way Jesus was a man. As a reminder:

Jesus = God


Your argument is flawed. It attempts to change one portion of the equation and expect the other to be unaffected. It doesn't work that way. In non-mathematical terms this is known as a double standard.

How many gods are there? No, not how many do LDS worship...how many are there? Millions? Billions? More? Your god is just one of many...dime a dozen gods...

Henotheism...a word one of you guys taught me...
Means that you acknowledge to existence of all these other gods...sort of necessary if you're gonna have god exalted by another, different god, who was exalted by a different god, who was exalted by....(yawn)...

My God is the only God that ever was, or is, or ever will be. No other gods need be acknowledged, because no other gods have ever existed, now exist, or ever will exist. Apples to kitty cats.

Wait, I'm getting it. Apples to kitty cats. I mention that it is not LDS doctrine to believe that the God of this world is not the God of the universe and you respond with a question about how many gods exist. You're right. That has nothing to do with you having presented a view that the LDS do not believe. Apples to kitty cats indeed.

No. Your belief that some of you will be exalted involves the exalted one being given his own kingdom which he will rule as god. In that kingdom, he alone will be king, and his wife will be queen.

To be given the kingdom means no such thing. There are no exalted ones...everyone who trusts in God will share His Kingdom...the only Kingdom that exists...and reign as Kings and Priests with Him...Apples to kitty cats.

That's a pretty sketchy difference. How many Kings do think might be ruling this one, single kingdom? Just exactly how does that work? Imagine a million kings sitting on the same throne and all of them ruling. It can't be a case where they each have a section of the kingdom to rule because that would be just like the scenario above.

Talk about things that don't make sense.

There's that sarcasm again...you have a gift for it. Almost as good as one of my kids...

I'm not the topic. The forum rules state that we are to address the topic and not the people. If you cannot abide by the forum rules then I have no interest in discussing any topic with you. Attempting to identify my behavior as childish by comparing me with your children does not help your arguments. As far as I am concerned this is an indication that you have run out of solid, viable arguments and have had to resort to personal defamation.

Good bye.

 

[Rescued One]

You did not post that in response to my comment.

We believe: John 1: 3

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.


We also believe the account in Genesis. Go ahead and point out where in the Bible it states that God created the universe and that He created it out of nothing. Although, I am seeing the possibility that you worship a Mighty God that has one ability that the LDS understanding of God does not. This verse states that all things that were made were made by God. That fits with a creation out of pre-existing matter. However, if you add the ability for God to make that which was not made then you have invented a Mighty God that exceeds His description in the Bible.

What is it that you think God can't make?

You did not post that in response to my comment.

And then you continue to ignore the LDS belief on the eternal nature of God, making arguments based on something we do not believe. I have already used Jesus as an example of being eternal and still being born. Your response is that God and Jesus are apples and kitty cats. Blatantly false, but you continue to present it.

She NEVER said that God and Jesus are apples and kitty cats.

According to Mormonism what isn't eternal?

The mind or the intelligence which man possesses is co-equal [co-eternal] with God himself…. I am dwelling on the immortality of the spirit of man…. The intelligence of spirits had not beginning, neither will it have an end…. There never was a time when there were not spirits; for they are co-equal [co-eternal] with our Father in heaven. (History of the Church, 6:302-317)

The spirit of man is not a created being; it existed from eternity and will exist to eternity. Anything created cannot be eternal; and earth, water, etc.—all these had their existence in an elementary state from eternity....

The Father called all spirits before him at the creation of man and organized them.
Words of Joseph Smith, p. 9

Did Jesus have to be born?

Philippians 2:5-8
Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

Do you think He was commanded or forced to be born?

Are you purposely leaving out portions of the LDS belief? Since the LDS belief on this matter, which is not the one you keep presenting, is that God was a man in the same way that Jesus was.

How does it help us to know that the basic elements of God’s life in a mortal world were the same as ours? President Brigham Young explained:

“He is our Father—the Father of our Spirits—and was once a man in mortal flesh as we are....

“...There never was a time when there were not Gods and worlds and when men were not passing through the same ordeals that we are now passing through....

“It appears ridiculous to the world, under their darkened and erroneous traditions, that God has been a finite being” (Deseret News, 16 Nov. 1859, p. 290).

(Search These Commandments, Melchizedek Priesthood Personal Study Guide, Copyright 1984, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, p. 153)

...Jesus was born on a planet. That planet did not exist before He was born. In fact, Jesus created Earth before He was born on it. As we have already discussed, Jesus was God in the beginning.

Joseph Smith taught that God was once a mortal man:

"God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! That is the great secret. ...I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil,...

It is the first principle of the gospel to know for a certainty the character of God, ...and that He was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ Himself did; ...you have got to learn how to be gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all gods have done before you, namely, by going from one small degree to another,... from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings. and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power" (History of the Church, Vol. 6, Ch. 14, p. 305-6).

Mormonism has everything but the kitchen sink in it!

Or maybe I should explain it this way: "That doesn't make sense if <Jesus> had to be born on a planet that had to already exist in order for him to be born on it."

I've already pointed out that Jesus was not commanded or forced to be born on earth. As for the creation,
was man in the beginning with God? Some sources say he was. Joseph Fielding Smith taught otherwise. How could our spirit birth makes us children of a heavenly father and mother if all of us including heavenly parents have always existed?

Our spirit birth gave us godlike capabilities. We were born in the image of God our Father; He begot us like unto Himself. There is the nature of deity in the composition of our spiritual organization; in our spiritual birth our Father transmitted to us the capabilities, powers and faculties which He Himself possessed -- as much so as the child on its mother's bosom possesses, although in an undeveloped state, the faculties, powers, and susceptibilities of its parent.
Lorenzo Snow, Teachings of Lorenzo Snow, p.4
http://emp.byui.edu/satterfieldb/quotes/divinepotential.HTML

If the Lord declares that intelligence, something which we do not fully understand, was co-eternal with him and always existed, there is no argument that we can or should present to contradict it. Why he cannot create intelligence is simply because intelligence, like time and space, always existed, and therefore did not have to be created. However, intelligences spoken of in the Book of Abraham were created, for these are spirit children of God, begotten sons.
Joseph Fielding Smith, Answers to Gospel Questions [1963], 3:125

 

[TheBarrd]

Maybe I should mention that the oldest of my sarcastic little darlings..my children, that is...is 45 years old, and the youngest is 35...there are seven of them born within a ten year period.
Their sarcasm is anything but childish...it is quite sophisticated, actually. They are all of them very intelligent.

Being compared to my kids by me is definitely not an insult...I am offended that anyone might take it that way.

As TfT said:

The substantial nature of the Trinitarian God is not compatible with the substantial nature of God as taught in the Restored Gospel.

Apples to kitty cats......

 

[drstevej]

The premise is totally wrong. Mormons think they are the only ones that are really Christians. So they don't want to be associated with nonmormon Christians, cause in their opinion they ain't Christians.

That's the clear implication of the first vision:

• join none of them
• they are all wrong
• all their creeds are an abomination in His sight
• those professors were all corrupt
• they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me
• they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.
• He again forbade me to join with any of them

 

[katerinah1947]

Honestly, I think this discussion will lead absolutely nowhere, which is why I've more or less dropped out of it, but you are not re-stating correctly what I said. Your first question was about "giving up God," and that is what I was responding to. Later, you refined the definition of God to the "Trinitarian God." I then responded to that narrowed definition. And now you are talking about "my God," which is likely narrower still.

Every response I gave to your questions was both accurate and truthful, and responsive to your words, to the extent that you made clear what you wanted to express.

That is all I have to add at this point.

Carry on.

Hi,
I have never refined God. For you to say that is something that only you know, what you truly mean by that.
I asked you, do I have to give up my God. You said no. Then later you said yes. My God has not changed ever. I have not refined Him.
LOVE,
...Katie., .... .

 

[katerinah1947]

Okay. Our conversation is finished.

Hi,
Does that mean you cannot refute TFT, and that he spoke correctly?
LOVE,
...Katherina., .... .

 

[Ran77]

What is it that you think God can't make?

Let's focus on the point I am trying to make. Which is the LDS believe this scripture and that God made everything that was made. Did God make matter? Did He create energy? Probably not. If God has always existed why is it problematic for the very basic elements of the universe to have existed as well? Why would that make God and less God? Is forming the stars and planets and living creatures from existing matter a minor feat, unworthy of our awe and admiration? Not in my case.

I don't know if God can make matter or energy out of nothing I know that He has made all that has been made and that is enough for me.

She NEVER said that God and Jesus are apples and kitty cats.

LDS believe that God was man in the same way that Jesus was man. Remember the whole Jesus = God example that I gave? The arguments, which include an unending number of apples to kitty cats claims, have been applied to either defending Jesus as human or attacking the LDS understanding of God as human. That may not be her words in quotes, but arguing either way translates into a defacto God and Jesus are apples and kitty cats. That's just the way it is.

According to Mormonism what isn't eternal?

That only reinforces my claim that LDS understand God to be eternal. And at the same time is the opposite of what she has offered.

Do you think He was commanded or forced to be born?

Why don't you ask The Barrd? She is the one who came up with the question?

No, because the LDS god had to be born on another planet and exalted to godhood. Apples and kitty cats.

Oh, look! Apples and kitty cats. Remember the Jesus = God thing I mentioned above? The LDS understanding is that Jesus and God experienced mortality in the same way. And here is an argument that basically states that God and Jesus are apples to kitty cats.

:o

How does it help us to know that the basic elements of God&#8217;s life in a mortal world were the same as ours? President Brigham Young explained:

&#8220;He is our Father&#8212;the Father of our Spirits&#8212;and was once a man in mortal flesh as we are....

&#8220;...There never was a time when there were not Gods and worlds and when men were not passing through the same ordeals that we are now passing through....

&#8220;It appears ridiculous to the world, under their darkened and erroneous traditions, that God has been a finite being&#8221; (Deseret News, 16 Nov. 1859, p. 290).

(Search These Commandments, Melchizedek Priesthood Personal Study Guide, Copyright 1984, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, p. 153)

I formally acknowledge that you have posted quotes, out of context, which have no accompanying comments by which we may know what point it is you're attempting to make.

Joseph Smith taught that God was once a mortal man:

"God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! That is the great secret. ...I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil,...

It is the first principle of the gospel to knowfor a certainty the character of God, ...and that He was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ Himself did; ...you have got to learn how to be gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all gods have done before you, namely, by going from one small degree to another,... from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings. and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power" (History of the Church, Vol. 6, Ch. 14, p. 305-6).

Excellent. That saves me the trouble of looking it up.

I've already pointed out that Jesus was not commanded or forced to be born on earth. As for the creation,

What does that have to do with my pointing out how TheBarrd's comment is flawed? Using her own words I replaced God with Jesus and we now have a statement that is obviously flawed and the opposite of what she has previously said about the matter. In other words, I put in pertinent data and received an error for the output.

 

[Rescued One]

LDS believe that God was man in the same way that Jesus was man.

You are not an official spokesperson for the LDS church, and you do not know what is in every Mormon's mind.

That only reinforces my claim that LDS understand God to be eternal. And at the same time is the opposite of what she has offered.

Our God is eternally God. Your god was a man who earned godhood.

The LDS understanding is that Jesus and God experienced mortality in the same way.

That's a newer LDS teaching. In 1984 it was taught that God took out His endowments. Why did He need them? Our God was always omnipotent.

I formally acknowledge that you have posted quotes, out of context, which have no accompanying comments by which we may know what point it is you're attempting to make.

Your comments don't make sense.

 

[katerinah1947]

Christianity will never teach God the Father was once a man and became God!

Christianity will never teach that people will become a God like Him.

Christianity believes there is only ONE God!

Christianity will never teach Satan is Jesus brother! (Yes, Mormonism teaches this).

The Bible (Christianity) teaches that there is only one uncreated, eternal, true God (Exodus 3:14; Deuteronomy 6:4; John 17:3).

&#8226; Exodus 3:14 (ISV) And God said unto Moses, &#8220;I Am That I Am.&#8221; And He said, &#8220;Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, &#8216;I Am hath sent me unto you.&#8217;&#8221;
&#8226; Deuteronomy 6:4 (NIV) Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.
&#8226; John 17:3 (ISV) And this is eternal life: to know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent&#8212;Jesus the Messiah.

The Bible teaches that there will never be any other uncreated, eternal, true God or God(s) to come into existence (Isaiah 43:10; 44:6-8; 1 Kings 8:59-60; Romans 3:29-30; 1 Corinthians 8:4-6; Galatians 4:8).

&#8226; Isaiah 43:10 (ISV) &#8220;You are my witnesses,&#8221; declares the Lord, &#8220;and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and trust me and understand that I am the One. Before me no God was formed, nor will there be one after me.

Are you reading Isaiah 43:10? No God or gods have existed before God! And no God or gods formed in the future.

Why has Mormonism not just said we are another religion that leads to God? Our (Mormonism) experience and encounter believes we have heard from God! Why say we are a branch of Christianity? Understand clearly, Jesus has to be the same one God not another God. Or the Jesus of the New Testament was a blasphemer and and Idolater! Why? Because Jesus received worship! God does not share his worship with ANYONE! Period!

&#8226; Exodus 34;14 says: for you shall worship no other god, for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.
&#8226; Exodus 20 :3-5 - You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not bow down to them or worship them.

Isaiah 43:10 says, there are no other Gods in the past or future! If your Mormon God forms another God or gods He will violate Isaiah 43:10! God cannot change His mind concerning Isaiah 43:10! Malachi 3;6: &#8220;I am the LORD, and I do not change. To change, He (God) would be considered a liar and an Idolater! That is not the God of Christianity!

Hi,
It appears from my recent discussion with two members of the LDS here, that they want to be called Christians, so they can convince me, to give up my God, who is among other things, Triniatarian. He is also the maker of all things, and apart from Him, nothing exists that is made. It seems they want to say, even to me, that they never ageed to me keeping my God, who is all I have said so far, plus more, but it is now I who have been covertly covering up, what God is.
Everyone. I know God. Later I was presented God, by Mary who asked God to give me a present. In that present, both The Trinitarian God, and Jesus Christ, plus The Holy Spirt were presented to me, as they are. That is the content and the way I know them, plus one more. In no way shape or form, have I ever said, or ever could say, God is not All He is, and is precisely what The Christians call The Trinitarian God.
I did ask if I had to give up God to two LDS people here, in order to be Mormon or LDS. Those two members both said no. Now, one of them, maybe both of them, are saying they never ageed to that.
Yet, I experienced them, and soon found myself looking into their theology, since they said I do not have to give up the God of me. The God I know. The revealed God. Now, they wish to dally on details. They wish to say something that makes no sense to me yet.
No matter what they say, it is this that counts. My God and the Christian God, is Trinitarian, and they say a Trinitarian God is incompatible with Mormonism. Thus for me and for any Christian who knows God, we are excluded from LDS, and from Mormonism, by the words of TFT, and maybe those of Ran77.
If I am excluded, from your Religion, why would you want to call my religion of Christianity, your religion. Why would you want to be called me, if I have to give up my Revealed and proven God to you? Why?
LOVE here means my best remembrance of the way God loves. As such, it is for you, that I speak and not for me. It is to ask you to love God as He is, and not how you wish Him to be, and He is Trinitarian, plus more. He is also personable.
LOVE,
...Mary Katherine, He, They and all the holy ones.
He, here is God The Father. They here is Jesus, Mary, and The Holy Spirit. 'all the holy ones' here is all the holy angels and the holy saints and the holy powers. Yes, I have permissions and responsiblilites to use those, but not normally in public. I am doing that here, for some of you, only.
LOVE,
....Mary Katherine., .... .

 

[TheBarrd]

Although, I am seeing the possibility that you worship a Mighty God that has one ability that the LDS understanding of God does not. This verse states that all things that were made were made by God. That fits with a creation out of pre-existing matter. However, if you add the ability for God to make that which was not made then you have invented a Mighty God that exceeds His description in the Bible.

ALL things that were made...includes the matter they were made from. I believe with all my heart, and all my mind, and all my strength...will all that I am...that God, far from ever being a man, existed before there was anything...before there was time itself. Mankind did not exist...not anywhere...until He breathed His spirit into the first man. The whole point is that we believe in a Mighty God Who is able to make that which was not made, for without Him was not anything made which is made.

 

[Ran77]

You are not an official spokesperson for the LDS church, and you do not know what is in every Mormon's mind.

First, I didn't claim that I was.

Second, every person on this forum posts what their denomination believes and doesn't believe. If you had to be an official spokesman for your specific church in order to post then I suspect that nobody would post here.

Third, in this particular situation, all I had to do was refer to quote you provided from Joseph Smith. It states it quite clearly. And Joseph Smith is an official spokesman for the LDS church. Weird that our critics readily refer to the JoD and then when I use a quote from it I get this sort of reaction.

:o

Our God is eternally God. Your god was a man who earned godhood.

Not true. And actually kind of shocking since I just explained, in some detail, the whole God = Jesus thing. It isn't going to help your argument to ignore what the LDS actually believe on this matter. No wonder the Baptist are worried about their sagging membership numbers.

What makes the situation worse is that I keep explaining it and rather than deal with the LDS doctrine on the topic, or even trying to refute what I posted, our critics continue to just make the same comments--like the one you made above. Just repeating it endlessly will not make it so.

That's a newer LDS teaching. In 1984 it was taught that God took out His endowments. Why did He need them? Our God was always omnipotent.

I used a quote from Joseph Smith to make this point. Why would you consider that a newer LDS teaching?

Your comments don't make sense.

You mean like in the same way that presenting something Joseph Smith spoke about as being a newer teaching doesn't make sense? Or it doesn't make sense in some other way?

 

[Rescued One]

ALL things that were made...includes the matter they were made from. I believe with all my heart, and all my mind, and all my strength...will all that I am...that God, far from ever being a man, existed before there was anything...before there was time itself. Mankind did not exist...not anywhere...until He breathed His spirit into the first man. The whole point is that we believe in a Mighty God Who is able to make that which was not made, for without Him was not anything made which is made.

AMEN!

 

[katerinah1947]

ALL things that were made...includes the matter they were made from. I believe with all my heart, and all my mind, and all my strength...will all that I am...that God, far from ever being a man, existed before there was anything...before there was time itself. Mankind did not exist...not anywhere...until He breathed His spirit into the first man. The whole point is that we believe in a Mighty God Who is able to make that which was not made, for without Him was not anything made which is made.

Hi,
Darling. Even science has found that without matter there is no time. Even science thus agrees with you. The more matter, the more time exists.
You said in effect, that before God did Creation, which involves making matter from energy, time did not exist. Well that is what science says also.
Also in agreement with you is man, is made from heavier elements. Heavier elements are made from star explosions. That is also that is in agreement, with what you said.
Do I need to go on and on, to say that your Biblical understandings are correct scientifically also? I hope not, but other more famous science types than this technician for years in advanced research, have come forth and said it is so. Science is not in conflict with The Christian view of God.
One more item. Whatever is observable, in any way shape or form, is in the realm of science.
People are observable. With proofs things can be said, unambiguously. People scientists have said for years, that we are Trinitarian, all in one body in this way: Each of us lives as a child, or an adult or as a parent, singularly, even though all three of these exist in each one of us. There is more. The parent in us, just like The Father, is in charge of orchestrating what is benificial and when for our adult selves and our child selves. Even people science agrees with the Christian view of God, that He is Trinitarian.
Is it really so hard to believe in the simple things like us being like God in a Trinitarian way? Did He not say one day: Let us make man in our own image? If He did, then is it not to be believed? If He did say that and do that, then are we not like Him in some way?
Let us not I, make man in not My, but in Our, own image. Really are those simple words complex? Who is us, not to you TheBarrd or some others here, but to those that claim otherwise. Who is Our? And, if this was all the Bible said about God, maybe we could all know less about Him. Yet, there are so many statements, that suggest, there is only one possiblity if all of those things are true, and that is God is Trinitarian, with a Begotten Son, and a Sent Holy Spirit. It is also precisely How, I saw them. It is also precisely as I deal with Them.
Even if everyone here, wishes to think me daft, or deceived, how can anyone, not you, realistically say The Bible is wrong, even in those words: "Let Us make man in Our own image"? How?
LOVE,
...Katherina., .... .

 

[Rescued One]

First, I didn't claim that I was.

Second, every person on this forum posts what their denomination believes and doesn't believe. If you had to be an official spokesman for your specific church in order to post then I suspect that nobody would post here.

Mormons are the ones who insist on official doctrine of the church. I'm not posting for "a church."

First, I didn't claim that I was.
Third, in this particular situation, all I had to do was refer to quote you provided from Joseph Smith. It states it quite clearly. And Joseph Smith is an official spokesman for the LDS church. Weird that our critics readily refer to the JoD and then when I use a quote from it I get this sort of reaction.

Please give us a link to your quote from JoD.

First, I didn't claim that I was.
Not true. And actually kind of shocking since I just explained, in some detail, the whole God = Jesus thing. It isn't going to help your argument to ignore what the LDS actually believe on this matter.

Only God knows what each Mormon actually believes. I go by what the Mormon church publishes.

Mormon Jesus = a god.

The Father is the supreme member of the Godhead.

"Jesus is greater than the Holy Spirit, which is subject unto him, but his Father is greater than he!"
Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 1:18
and Book of Mormon Student Manual, 1989, Alma 7:10, p.74

I used a quote from Joseph Smith to make this point. Why would you consider that a newer LDS teaching?

You seldom, if ever, provide references. But I can tell you that Joseph Smith came up with different doctrines as he went along.

 

[Ran77]

Mormons are the ones who insist on official doctrine of the church. I'm not posting for "a church."



Please give us a link to your quote from JoD.



Only God knows what each Mormon actually believes. I go by what the Mormon church publishes.

Mormon Jesus = a god.

The Father is the supreme member of the Godhead.

"Jesus is greater than the Holy Spirit, which is subject unto him, but his Father is greater than he!"
Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 1:18
and Book of Mormon Student Manual, 1989, Alma 7:10, p.74



You seldom, if ever, provide references. But I can tell you that Joseph Smith came up with different doctrines as he went along.

It seems to me that your post is mostly an attempt to move the discussion away from the current topic. Not interested.

 

[TheBarrd]

It seems to me that your post is mostly an attempt to move the discussion away from the current topic. Not interested.

Okay, I'll ask...what is the JoD?

How many of these things do you guys have?
I mean, it's no wonder you see so confused.
All we have is the Bible. And before you start screaming about the various creeds again (I only know of two of them, and there are many Christians who don't even know about that many), very few Christians would tell you that they are "official doctrine". They are more like a "shorthand version" of Biblical teachings, and that is all that they are.

So...JoD?

 

[Rescued One]

It seems to me that your post is mostly an attempt to move the discussion away from the current topic. Not interested.

You seem to hate answering questions and when you don't want to, you make snide remarks.. You didn't provide the link because you didn't post a reference for the JoD and probably never quoted it.

 

[Rescued One]

Okay, I'll ask...what is the JoD?

JoD is the Journal of Discourses. It isn't a standard work but they sometimes quote it. Brigham Young thought God was Adam. That stuff is in there.

The Journal of Discourses (often abbreviated J.D.) is a 26-volume collection of public sermons by early leaders of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church). The first editions of the Journal were published in England by George D. Watt, the stenographer of Brigham Young.
Journal of Discourses - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

https://www.lds.org/topics/journal-of-discourses?lang=eng
I own the set and at least some, if not all, is online.

HC = History of the Church. I also own that 6- volume set.

Teachings = Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith. Of course, I own that book and many, many more.

 

[katerinah1947]

You seem to hate answering questions and when you don't want to, you make snide remarks.. You didn't provide the link because you didn't post a reference for the JoD and probably never quoted it.

Hi,
Please read Matthew 7:16 Phoebe Ann. And in case you are not familiar with some of the terms, a fig there is a male that knows and loves God. A grape there is like you, who knows and loves God.
And thorns there are all those remarks women can make that hurt. For men it is all their actions that can hurt, or even be difficult to be around them.
The point there from God to all people, is that men and women who are nice always, really do know Him in some way or another, all others don't, but typically say they do.
Now, if a person fails, any person fails, Mathew 7:16, look around in the vicinity to see not what I might say here, but what Jesus says about that type.
This was revealed to me, By Totally The Holy Spirit, but in this way. I asked about a group of people, not LDS then, nor Mormons, but rather another group. So perfectly Holy Spirit wise, the way He does things, immediately I know Matthew 7:15. I look it up. Great! What is that suposed to mean? I did not have a clue, as to why The Holy Spirit had said that to me, about that group.
Remember how many people here say God comes to us in the way we are. I am considered an advanced research type of scientist by my peers. So, since I did not understand, I kept reading and looked around. Then I took a guess, and tried to prove that guess wrong. I coudn't at first. So, I expanded that guess with people I knew and told them what I could not prove wrong. They all chimed in and said that they also cannot prove that wrong, but also told me just how much my observations so far matched theirs.
Eventually I cave in, to Matthew 7:15 types exist everywhere. They are in my parish. Some are priests. Some are Protestant ministers. Some are people I work with. All of those types fail as figs or grapes, as it is said there in Matthew 7:16.
Later I learned more. I learned that with all who fail, Matthew 7:16, some of what they say is true, but the only things that I or you are supposed to listen to those types about, is when they quote literally from confirmed sources. That is the only way we can listen to those types, and not reap the statements of Jesus, in Matthew 7:15.
LOVE,
...Kate., .... .