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Once again...no pre existing material. Nothing but a vacuum.
Apples to kitty cats.
Again, those balls of fiery energy originated from nothing more than the will of God. Nothing. No pre-existing matter. Apples to kitty cats.
I wish it were so. However, your god was once a man. Mine was not. Apples to kitty cats.
How many gods are there? No, not how many do LDS worship...how many are there? Millions? Billions? More? Your god is just one of many...dime a dozen gods...
Henotheism...a word one of you guys taught me...
Means that you acknowledge to existence of all these other gods...sort of necessary if you're gonna have god exalted by another, different god, who was exalted by a different god, who was exalted by....(yawn)...
My God is the only God that ever was, or is, or ever will be. No other gods need be acknowledged, because no other gods have ever existed, now exist, or ever will exist. Apples to kitty cats.
No. Your belief that some of you will be exalted involves the exalted one being given his own kingdom which he will rule as god. In that kingdom, he alone will be king, and his wife will be queen.
To be given the kingdom means no such thing. There are no exalted ones...everyone who trusts in God will share His Kingdom...the only Kingdom that exists...and reign as Kings and Priests with Him...Apples to kitty cats.
There's that sarcasm again...you have a gift for it. Almost as good as one of my kids...
You did not post that in response to my comment.
We believe: John 1: 3
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
We also believe the account in Genesis. Go ahead and point out where in the Bible it states that God created the universe and that He created it out of nothing. Although, I am seeing the possibility that you worship a Mighty God that has one ability that the LDS understanding of God does not. This verse states that all things that were made were made by God. That fits with a creation out of pre-existing matter. However, if you add the ability for God to make that which was not made then you have invented a Mighty God that exceeds His description in the Bible.
You did not post that in response to my comment.
And then you continue to ignore the LDS belief on the eternal nature of God, making arguments based on something we do not believe. I have already used Jesus as an example of being eternal and still being born. Your response is that God and Jesus are apples and kitty cats. Blatantly false, but you continue to present it.
Did Jesus have to be born?
Are you purposely leaving out portions of the LDS belief? Since the LDS belief on this matter, which is not the one you keep presenting, is that God was a man in the same way that Jesus was.
...Jesus was born on a planet. That planet did not exist before He was born. In fact, Jesus created Earth before He was born on it. As we have already discussed, Jesus was God in the beginning.
Or maybe I should explain it this way: "That doesn't make sense if <Jesus> had to be born on a planet that had to already exist in order for him to be born on it."
The substantial nature of the Trinitarian God is not compatible with the substantial nature of God as taught in the Restored Gospel.
The premise is totally wrong. Mormons think they are the only ones that are really Christians. So they don't want to be associated with nonmormon Christians, cause in their opinion they ain't Christians.
Honestly, I think this discussion will lead absolutely nowhere, which is why I've more or less dropped out of it, but you are not re-stating correctly what I said. Your first question was about "giving up God," and that is what I was responding to. Later, you refined the definition of God to the "Trinitarian God." I then responded to that narrowed definition. And now you are talking about "my God," which is likely narrower still.
Every response I gave to your questions was both accurate and truthful, and responsive to your words, to the extent that you made clear what you wanted to express.
That is all I have to add at this point.
Carry on.
Okay. Our conversation is finished.
What is it that you think God can't make?
She NEVER said that God and Jesus are apples and kitty cats.
According to Mormonism what isn't eternal?
Do you think He was commanded or forced to be born?
No, because the LDS god had to be born on another planet and exalted to godhood. Apples and kitty cats.
How does it help us to know that the basic elements of God’s life in a mortal world were the same as ours? President Brigham Young explained:
“He is our Father—the Father of our Spirits—and was once a man in mortal flesh as we are....
“...There never was a time when there were not Gods and worlds and when men were not passing through the same ordeals that we are now passing through....
“It appears ridiculous to the world, under their darkened and erroneous traditions, that God has been a finite being” (Deseret News, 16 Nov. 1859, p. 290).
(Search These Commandments, Melchizedek Priesthood Personal Study Guide, Copyright 1984, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, p. 153)
Joseph Smith taught that God was once a mortal man:
"God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! That is the great secret. ...I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil,...
It is the first principle of the gospel to knowfor a certainty the character of God, ...and that He was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ Himself did; ...you have got to learn how to be gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all gods have done before you, namely, by going from one small degree to another,... from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings. and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power" (History of the Church, Vol. 6, Ch. 14, p. 305-6).
I've already pointed out that Jesus was not commanded or forced to be born on earth. As for the creation,
LDS believe that God was man in the same way that Jesus was man.
That only reinforces my claim that LDS understand God to be eternal. And at the same time is the opposite of what she has offered.
The LDS understanding is that Jesus and God experienced mortality in the same way.
I formally acknowledge that you have posted quotes, out of context, which have no accompanying comments by which we may know what point it is you're attempting to make.
Christianity will never teach God the Father was once a man and became God!
Christianity will never teach that people will become a God like Him.
Christianity believes there is only ONE God!
Christianity will never teach Satan is Jesus brother! (Yes, Mormonism teaches this).
The Bible (Christianity) teaches that there is only one uncreated, eternal, true God (Exodus 3:14; Deuteronomy 6:4; John 17:3).
• Exodus 3:14 (ISV) And God said unto Moses, “I Am That I Am.” And He said, “Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, ‘I Am hath sent me unto you.’”
• Deuteronomy 6:4 (NIV) Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.
• John 17:3 (ISV) And this is eternal life: to know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent—Jesus the Messiah.
The Bible teaches that there will never be any other uncreated, eternal, true God or God(s) to come into existence (Isaiah 43:10; 44:6-8; 1 Kings 8:59-60; Romans 3:29-30; 1 Corinthians 8:4-6; Galatians 4:8).
• Isaiah 43:10 (ISV) “You are my witnesses,” declares the Lord, “and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and trust me and understand that I am the One. Before me no God was formed, nor will there be one after me.
Are you reading Isaiah 43:10? No God or gods have existed before God! And no God or gods formed in the future.
Why has Mormonism not just said we are another religion that leads to God? Our (Mormonism) experience and encounter believes we have heard from God! Why say we are a branch of Christianity? Understand clearly, Jesus has to be the same one God not another God. Or the Jesus of the New Testament was a blasphemer and and Idolater! Why? Because Jesus received worship! God does not share his worship with ANYONE! Period!
• Exodus 34;14 says: for you shall worship no other god, for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.
• Exodus 20 :3-5 - You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not bow down to them or worship them.
Isaiah 43:10 says, there are no other Gods in the past or future! If your Mormon God forms another God or gods He will violate Isaiah 43:10! God cannot change His mind concerning Isaiah 43:10! Malachi 3;6: “I am the LORD, and I do not change. To change, He (God) would be considered a liar and an Idolater! That is not the God of Christianity!
Although, I am seeing the possibility that you worship a Mighty God that has one ability that the LDS understanding of God does not. This verse states that all things that were made were made by God. That fits with a creation out of pre-existing matter. However, if you add the ability for God to make that which was not made then you have invented a Mighty God that exceeds His description in the Bible.
You are not an official spokesperson for the LDS church, and you do not know what is in every Mormon's mind.
Our God is eternally God. Your god was a man who earned godhood.
That's a newer LDS teaching. In 1984 it was taught that God took out His endowments. Why did He need them? Our God was always omnipotent.
Your comments don't make sense.
ALL things that were made...includes the matter they were made from. I believe with all my heart, and all my mind, and all my strength...will all that I am...that God, far from ever being a man, existed before there was anything...before there was time itself. Mankind did not exist...not anywhere...until He breathed His spirit into the first man. The whole point is that we believe in a Mighty God Who is able to make that which was not made, for without Him was not anything made which is made.
ALL things that were made...includes the matter they were made from. I believe with all my heart, and all my mind, and all my strength...will all that I am...that God, far from ever being a man, existed before there was anything...before there was time itself. Mankind did not exist...not anywhere...until He breathed His spirit into the first man. The whole point is that we believe in a Mighty God Who is able to make that which was not made, for without Him was not anything made which is made.
First, I didn't claim that I was.
Second, every person on this forum posts what their denomination believes and doesn't believe. If you had to be an official spokesman for your specific church in order to post then I suspect that nobody would post here.
First, I didn't claim that I was.
Third, in this particular situation, all I had to do was refer to quote you provided from Joseph Smith. It states it quite clearly. And Joseph Smith is an official spokesman for the LDS church. Weird that our critics readily refer to the JoD and then when I use a quote from it I get this sort of reaction.
First, I didn't claim that I was.
Not true. And actually kind of shocking since I just explained, in some detail, the whole God = Jesus thing. It isn't going to help your argument to ignore what the LDS actually believe on this matter.
I used a quote from Joseph Smith to make this point. Why would you consider that a newer LDS teaching?
Mormons are the ones who insist on official doctrine of the church. I'm not posting for "a church."
Please give us a link to your quote from JoD.
Only God knows what each Mormon actually believes. I go by what the Mormon church publishes.
Mormon Jesus = a god.
The Father is the supreme member of the Godhead.
"Jesus is greater than the Holy Spirit, which is subject unto him, but his Father is greater than he!"
Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 1:18
and Book of Mormon Student Manual, 1989, Alma 7:10, p.74
You seldom, if ever, provide references. But I can tell you that Joseph Smith came up with different doctrines as he went along.
It seems to me that your post is mostly an attempt to move the discussion away from the current topic. Not interested.
It seems to me that your post is mostly an attempt to move the discussion away from the current topic. Not interested.
Okay, I'll ask...what is the JoD?
You seem to hate answering questions and when you don't want to, you make snide remarks.. You didn't provide the link because you didn't post a reference for the JoD and probably never quoted it.
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