Why does hell exist?

TedT

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Finite beings aren't capable if infnite anything.
I was using infinite in the sense of eternal...

If they can't be fixed (too hard for God, maybe?), why not just delete them? Why eternal torture?
I assume that if they can be just deleted they would be... Why they aren't has not been taught to me yet. I guess it might have something to do with being created either mortal (not eternal) or eternal with no change from one state to the other possible, shrug.

As far as the word torture goes it has no place in any reference to GOD and judgement. GOD is a proper and righteous judge and a judge's righteous decisions are not torture by anyone's definitions. Torture is an immoral, illegal act of causing pain illicitly, often for a psychotic reason which is the opposite of a proper judge's righteous decision of retribution for heinous, unforgivable (that is, eternal) crimes.

They can't be forgiven or as you suggest, fixed, because
- they made the decision to rebel against GOD's claims to Deity by their free will and a free will decision cannot be changed by anyone unless the person asks for it to be changed. To be a free will decision, all decisions must be sacrosanct and inviolable from any outside force, that is, only that person can change their mind by a new free will decision or they are being coerced to change their minds and a free will decision cannot be coerced to choose nor constrained from choosing any available option by any force whatsoever.

- Once they sinned by their rebellion to HIM they became enslaved by the addictive power of evil which destroyed their ability to seek true repentance. They were instantly and totally unable to repent of their evil and committed fully to the belief they were right to rebel against this upstart liar and false god. Their enslavement to the addictive power of evil compels them to hate GOD even after learning the truth about HIS eternal power and divinity, Romans 1:18-32. This suggests convincingly that their free will to seek salvation is destroyed by the force of their addiction.

And GOD has no interest in marriage with a person who has been forced to want marry HIM by the proof that rejecting HIM as GOD and as a proper husband really does have adverse consequences for their lives.

So yes, they have made a decision with eternal, ie, infinite, consequences, your scorn notwithstanding.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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That actually makes no sense. Why the eternal torture? What does God get out of that? How is His holiness affirmed by torturing some poor fool for all eternity? It sure puts paid to the idea of God's love, though, doesn't it? Love doesn't torture, hate does. If someone is a hopeless iredeemable sinner, what's the point of tormenting them forever?
Torture? When did I say anything about torture? I made it clear that I believe it will be emotional and mental anguish that they experience because of regret. I said nothing about anyone being tortured.

But He's still gonna condemn most of the people He's created. That sounds like angry is His default state.
Are you not a Christian? Looks like you don't believe in the God of the Bible. Whose fault is it when someone doesn't repent? The person who doesn't repent or God?

That's obviously wrong, because your lot keeps assuring us that the wages of sin is eternal life imder torture.
I said nothing about torture. You need to learn to read more carefully.
 
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TedT

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Torture? When did I say anything about torture? I made it clear that I believe it will be emotional and mental anguish that they experience because of regret. I said nothing about anyone being tortured.

The moral badness of torture is found in its illegality, not that it causes pain...
 
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Spiritual Jew

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OK, fine. Why not just erasure from time and space, then, and not the barbarous penalty of eternal torture? Sounds ridiculous to me. (That provides you an opportunity for Christian one-upsmanship, so be sure to take advantage of it). If people are broke, why not fix them? If they can't be fixed (too hard for God, maybe?), why not just delete them? Why eternal torture? God get a kick out of it?
Where are you getting this idea of eternal torture from? What is your understanding of this "eternal torture" that you're talking about? Are you talking about physical torture of some kind? What would it entail?

The one final problrm remains. Eternal Conscious Torment requires that everyone live forever, either in blis or in torment. The Bible says no such thing. Ever, Anywhere. Not even once.
I guess you've never read this?

Revelation 14:9 A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, 10 they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”

Yeah, y'all ignore that fact, studiously and religiously, but fact it remains.
What fact? You mean the fact that you either have never read or are ignoring Revelation 14:9-11?

The Bible speaks often of the death of the wicked, but never once of them livng forever, under torture or otherwise "The wages of sin is death...". Not eternal life. "The gift of God is eternal life". Not something that everyone has in any case. The righteous receive the gift of God and live forever. Sinners die. It's in the Bible.
You seem to have the wrong understanding of the term "death". It doesn't have to mean annihilation as you seem to think. Death can mean separation. Eternal life always refers to an eternity of bliss. Eternal death is not annihilation, but rather is eternal separation from God.

2 Thess 1:6 God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might...
 
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TedT

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What does that mean?

GOD causes morally just, ie righteous, pain because HE is just and loving...so pain doesn't prove immorality, only whether it is justified or not...Jipsah is wrong to use that word in the context of GOD's righteous judgements.
 
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Jipsah

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I was using infinite in the sense of eternal...
Nothing in Scripture says tha humans are intrinsically eternal, and meath" uch that says they are not. "Death" quote often "means "death" in Scripture, even though we have to explain that it really means something else to prevent damage to favorite doctrines.

I assume that if they can be just deleted they would be... Why they aren't has not been taught to me yet.
Probably because you've always been taught that everyone evet born lives forever. The Bible says no such thing. THe "wages of sin is death contrasts directly with "the gift of God is eternal life." "Oh, but death doesn't really mean death." Horsefeathers.

As far as the word torture goes it has no place in any reference to GOD and judgement.
Semantic games don't evade the fact that that's what the Eternal Conscious Torment doctrine is all about. THye don't like sayihg it because it makes God look like a pitiless monster, but that's precisely what they argue that He is.

GOD is a proper and righteous judge and a judge's righteous decisions are not torture by anyone's definitions.
A righteous judge doesn't sentence almost everyone who shows up in court to hang. But that, in effect, is what ECT fans think is "just". (Actually hanging is more just, because it only causes one to die not to be tormented forever.) "Well, Judge Ketch is so righteous he can't stand to see anyone who's ever broken a law not tortured for the rest of their life." Translation, Judge Ketch is a mercilous fiend.

I don't see God as a fiend because I actually do believe He's just, and destroys those who are consigned to hell. That is just - He gave, He took away, blessed is the name of the Lord.

Torture is an immoral, illegal act of causing pain
But we have to believe it's OK for God to do it because that's wha we've ben taught.

They can't be forgiven or as you suggest, fixed, because
- they made the decision to rebel against GOD's claims to Deity by their free will and a free will decision cannot be changed by anyone unless the person asks for it to be changed.
So our "freewill" trumps the power of God. Chapter and verse, por favor. God can speak the universe into being, but He can't alter our corrupt "free will" (which isn't, BTW, all that killin' free, is it?) "Poor God, He'd love to save everyone, but He just can't because Free Will. So first He's a pitiless tyrant, and then He's an ineffectual by-stander. ETC folks don't have a very high opinion of God, IMO.

To be a free will decision, all decisions must be sacrosanct and inviolable from any outside force, that is, only that person can change their mind by a new free will decision or they are being coerced to change their minds and a free will decision cannot be coerced to choose nor constrained from choosing any available option by any force whatsoever.
Nice set of sophstries to keep God in His place, innit? Funny, though, I don't recall being asked my permission to be born, or a number oher things that have happend to me in my life. Seems like the only time I'm free is when it come time to chuck me into the fire for failing to hold my mouth right. Innat weird?

And GOD has no interest in marriage with a person who has been forced to want marry HIM by the proof that rejecting HIM as GOD and as a proper husband really does have adverse consequences for their lives.
Straw man. Most people don't give religion a whole lot of thought. They have jobs to do, kids to raise, and all the distractions of the world to keep 'em occupied. The whole "all thr multitudes who hate God" schtick is just that. The idea is that everyone who isn't a Christian gets tossed onto the barbie to roast forever for the very dubious notion that they all knowingly rebelled against the God Who they didn't believe in in the first place. Yeah, that makes perfect sense.

So yes, they have made a decision with eternal, ie, infinite, consequences, your scorn notwithstanding.
Be assured, my scorn for that pernicious doctrine is very real.[/QUOTE]
 
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Mink61

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Infinte punishment for finite offenses isn't really very just, is it?
How is an "offense" necessarily "finite"?

Some people's "hearts" simply won't change. And God knows that.

Years ago, I watched a program where a serial killer was interviewed. He seemed very calm and rational during the interview. He was sentenced to several hundred years in prison, and as a flesh and blood human being, he couldn't possibly serve out that sentence.

He was asked if he should be released. He said, "No", because he would only "kill again" if he was. To take a life made him feel 'god-like' (his words).
If HE knows, he's not going to change, and GOD knows he's not going to change, does he deserve to be in heaven, along with others who have no desire to murder?
Nonsense. Finite beings aren't capable if infnite anything.
But we're only "finite beings" in the sense of our flesh and blood; not in our soul.

So almost everybody commits the Unforgiveble Sin the, right? Must be relatively easy to commit them, isn't it?
Then you don't understand what the "unforgivable sin" is.


OK, fine. Why not just erasure from time and space, then, and not the barbarous penalty of eternal torture? Sounds ridiculous to me. (That provides you an opportunity for Christian one-upsmanship, so be sure to take advantage of it). If people are broke, why not fix them? If they can't be fixed (too hard for God, maybe?), why not just delete them? Why eternal torture? God get a kick out of it?
No, not too hard for God. But God gave us free will, and God isn't about to interfere with that that.

Just a reminder...Satan is satan for a reason. He's been satan for many years. God would have no problem welcoming satan back into his kingdom, IF satan repented. Satan can use his own free will to repent, but satan chooses not to.

The one final problrm remains. Eternal Conscious Torment requires that everyone live forever, either in blis or in torment. The Bible says no such thing. Ever, Anywhere. Not even once.

Actually, it does. Not using *your* exact words, but yes, it does.

Yeah, y'all ignore that fact, studiously and religiously, but fact it remains. The Bible speaks often of the death of the wicked, but never once of them livng forever, under torture or otherwise "The wages of sin is death...". Not eternal life. "The gift of God is eternal life". Not something that everyone has in any case. The righteous receive the gift of God and live forever. Sinners die. It's in the Bible.
I suggest you read Jesus' words again, AND Revelation. Might clear a few things up for you.
 
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TedT

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Be assured, my scorn for that pernicious doctrine is very real.

You twist the Christian doctrine out of all recognition, a waste of time for serious people...

Tell my your doctrine of life and I'm pretty sure I could retell it so badly it will make you look evil.
 
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