Why does hell exist?

GodLovesCats

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How this thread is in this section rather than Contro, that I can't tell you.

I put it here because hell is where most people will be at the end times, when Jesus is on Earth with all of us. Do you believe hell will no longer exist when Jesus returns?
 
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Trusting in Him

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Using the Bible as a source of truth requires faith, and agnostics and atheists don’t have faith. They want to apply the same type of reasoning, testing, and science as they do with everything else. If something exists, then like anything else that want to see evidence of it. Anyone can say unicorns and dragons exist, but since there is no evidence we know that they don’t. They want the same standards applied to religious claims, can you blame them?

My understanding is that we are to be witnesses, which for me means to tell the truth. Salvation is the miracle which God alone can do and how does that help when we as witnesses are witholding the truth, because we think that people might not like the truth. Sorry, but God wants our yea to be yea and our nay to be nay. Why should people want to be saved, if there is no hell to be saved from!
 
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Sparagmos

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I think it has more to do with emotionalism than it does faith! It is often found those who deny a place of torment for the unjust, as well as those who argue for universal salvation are typically allowing their emotions to overrule the truth found in the Word of God. It's more about how they FEEL regardless of what the Word says.
The belief that the Bible is the word of God/truth is based completely on faith. That was my point. Only people who believe that bible is the word of god consider it a source of truth.
 
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Sparagmos

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My understanding is that we are to be witnesses, which for me means to tell the truth. Salvation is the miracle which God alone can do and how does that help when we as witnesses are witholding the truth, because we think that people might not like the truth. Sorry, but God wants our yea to be yea and our nay to be nay. Why should people want to be saved, if there is no hell to be saved from!
Sorry, I don’t understand how that is a reply to my comment. Can you relate that to what I said about atheists and agnostics wanting to see evidence of things to know they exist?
 
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DavidPT

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I put it here because hell is where most people will be at the end times, when Jesus is on Earth with all of us. Do you believe hell will no longer exist when Jesus returns?


I'm not complaining it's in this section. Topics like this are usually better suited for Contro though, so it puzzled me why the Mods haven't moved it yet.


As to your question. Since I'm Premil and believe the thousand years are after the 2nd coming, and that I believe hell and the LOF are the same place, well, Revelation 19 has the LOF in view at the 2nd coming. I take the LOF to possibly be on the earth, and one reason I do is because of the following passage.


Isaiah 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.


This to me is meaning hell, the LOF. And it is apparently upon the earth they shall go and look forth. When? After the 2nd coming at the beginning of the thousand years, in my view. And why might they do that, to serve what purpose? Maybe as a warning to the mortals spared(Zechariah 14:16, for one, Daniel 7:12 for another)---trangress against me after I have spared you, this will be your fate as well. Where I then see the trangressing happening, not during the thousand years, but after the thousand years when satan is loosed and deceives them again.

So, no I do not believe hell quits existing once Jesus returns. In my view, as of the 2nd coming, hell is just beginning. And since Revelation 20:10 records that satan shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever, apparently hell will never stop existing.
 
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TedT

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It makes no sense that the most loving Person in the world would want to make any dead people suffer excruciating pain forever.

All these IFs are ordinary beliefs of ordinary Christians...
IF we were created as eternally self and other aware spirits and
IF we were all created with a free will and
IF there is an unforgivable sin, a sin that puts the person outside of all grace and
IF some of HIS creation chose to sin the unforgivable sin and
IF it is true that a little leaven / sin leavens / corrupts the whole lump / person / community, then
IF the only way to protect HIS Church and heavenly Family from these eternally evil people was to banish them from HIS heavenly reality,
THEN hell is an absolute necessity to keep the eternally evil ones from corrupting HIS heaven.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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My mom, a Methodist who was raised Presbyterian, does not believe hell exists just because God is love. It makes no sense that the most loving Person in the world would want to make any dead people suffer excruciating pain forever.
Clearly, God does punish people. So, I wonder why she thinks He punishes anyone at all, even if it wasn't forever? Yes, God is love, but He is also holy. His holiness prevents Him from tolerating and excusing unrepentant sin. He is very patient and slow to anger. But, notice what that says. Slow to anger. That means He does get angry. It just takes a long time for Him to get angry. And He is just. So, God's trait of holiness and His sense of justice demands that He punish unrepentant wickedness.

The wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23). That is not just talking about physical death, but also the second death (Revelation 20:15) which results in eternal separation from God. And scripture indicates that being cast into the lake of fire results in eternal torment (Rev 14:10, 20:10).

Now, with all of this said, what makes your mom think that it will be physical pain that people suffer in hell? It's only the souls of unbelievers that are in hell right now, so they can't possibly be experiencing physical pain there. I assume maybe she's talking about the lake of fire (Rev 20:15) instead? I don't believe it will be physical pain that people experience even in "the lake of fire", but rather will be mental and emotional anguish and torment. There is nothing in scripture which indicates that it will be physical torment. The lake of fire is not a literal, physical lake of literal fire. The lake of fire is symbolic just like much of Revelation is. The fire represents the burning emotional pain of regret. Regret that they will be separated from God for eternity and miss out on all of the eternal blessings they could have had if only they had repented of their sins as God commands "all people everywhere" to do (Acts 17:30).

After all, look at how many miracles God performed on people for the purpose of eliminating physical and psychological suffering, even on people who do not know Him.

Recently, non-Christians have been telling me if hell is real, we believe in a "wicked" god and it is better to not to be a Christian because of our belief all non-believers will suffer this way after a physical death.
They have the wrong understanding of hell, unfortunately. People don't physically go to hell. Just their souls go there. But, they are probably really referring to what scripture calls "the lake of fire" which is the eventual eternal destination of unbelievers. But, again, I don't believe it will involve physical pain in "the lake of fire".

This is totally understandable. Unfortunately, I was taught being a Christian requires believing in a literal hell at an evangelical church.
Hell is certainly an actual place. Scripture makes that clear. I assume (hope) when you say "literal" you just mean physical?

What can I tell non-believers to make them understand the existence of hell does not mean we believe in an evil God?
By telling them it's not a place of physical suffering, but rather mental and emotional torment that people bring upon themselves by rejecting God.

2 Thess 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

A passage like this shows that the punishment they will experience in the future when they are judged will be separation "from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power". They will experience feelings of deep regret over that.[/quote][/quote]
 
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Mink61

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What is it you assume is my idea of hell? A lot of what I submitted is not my idea of hell, but the idea of other interpreters.
O.k.

What I do think about hell is this, though. It's a literal place and the fire there is literal. Some interpreters, the ones who believe hell to be never ending, in regards to humans, insist the fire is not literal. I guess that way it makes hell not so bad after all. Could they or would they continue to believe hell is never ending for humans if they were instead convinced the fire is literal?
Yes, I know that some people do believe that. To them I would ask, "Why would you think that mental torment, day and night, FOREVER isn't as bad as literal fire?"

Whether it's a literal fire, or a spiritual fire--or both--, doesn't really matter to me. Either way, it's an extremely unpleasant, painful place to be.

But I also believe it's a place that's necessary. Those who don't pass through God's Mercy will have to pass into God's Justice.
 
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yeshuasavedme

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Clearly, God does punish people. So, I wonder why she thinks He punishes anyone at all, even if it wasn't forever? Yes, God is love, but He is also holy. His holiness prevents Him from tolerating and excusing unrepentant sin. He is very patient and slow to anger. But, notice what that says. Slow to anger. That means He does get angry. It just takes a long time for Him to get angry. And He is just. So, God's trait of holiness and His sense of justice demands that He punish unrepentant wickedness.

The wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23). That is not just talking about physical death, but also the second death (Revelation 20:15) which results in eternal separation from God. And scripture indicates that being cast into the lake of fire results in eternal torment (Rev 14:10, 20:10).

Now, with all of this said, what makes your mom think that it will be physical pain that people suffer in hell? It's only the souls of unbelievers that are in hell right now, so they can't possibly be experiencing physical pain there. I assume maybe she's talking about the lake of fire (Rev 20:15) instead? I don't believe it will be physical pain that people experience even in "the lake of fire", but rather will be mental and emotional anguish and torment. There is nothing in scripture which indicates that it will be physical torment. The lake of fire is not a literal, physical lake of literal fire. The lake of fire is symbolic just like much of Revelation is. The fire represents the burning emotional pain of regret. Regret that they will be separated from God for eternity and miss out on all of the eternal blessings they could have had if only they had repented of their sins as God commands "all people everywhere" to do (Acts 17:30).

They have the wrong understanding of hell, unfortunately. People don't physically go to hell. Just their souls go there. But, they are probably really referring to what scripture calls "the lake of fire" which is the eventual eternal destination of unbelievers. But, again, I don't believe it will involve physical pain in "the lake of fire".

Hell is certainly an actual place. Scripture makes that clear. I assume (hope) when you say "literal" you just mean physical?

By telling them it's not a place of physical suffering, but rather mental and emotional torment that people bring upon themselves by rejecting God.

2 Thess 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

A passage like this shows that the punishment they will experience in the future when they are judged will be separation "from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power". They will experience feelings of deep regret over that.
[/quote][/QUOTE]
LUKE 16.
The departed soul of the rich man in hell, though his body was decaying in the ground, had ears to hear, eyes to see, tongue to taste, mouth to talk, and was himself, though disembodied, and was tormented in flames.
Jesus was not laying new doctrone, but speaking from that which was laid down in the book of Enoch, about Sheol, in the belly of the earth, the waiting place for departed souls who were held there until the time of their release.
The souls that died in righteousness waited in a place that had breezes and Springs of water. They were waiting for the day of atonement, when they would be released from the first death and go to paradise above, to wait for the resurrection of their bodies in regenerated form.
 
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Jipsah

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Yes, God is love, but He is also holy. His holiness prevents Him from tolerating and excusing unrepentant sin.
That actually makes no sense. Why the eternal torture? What does God get out of that? How is His holiness affirmed by torturing some poor fool for all eternity? It sure puts paid to the idea of God's love, though, doesn't it? Love doesn't torture, hate does. If someone is a hopeless iredeemable sinner, what's the point of tormenting them forever?

He is very patient and slow to anger.
But He's still gonna condemn most of the people He's created. That sounds like angry is His default state.

The wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23).
That's obviously wrong, because your lot keeps assuring us that the wages of sin is eternal life imder torture.
 
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Jipsah

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THEN hell is an absolute necessity to keep the eternally evil ones from corrupting HIS heaven.
Why not just delete them from existence and have done? Why if all those places where it says that sinners face death are actually true? And what if death really means death, and not something (or anything) else it can be claimed to "really mean" so that it doesn't conflict with the doctrine of eternal conscious torment?
 
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TedT

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Infinte punishment for finite offenses isn't really very just, is it?
The infinite punishment is for infinite sinfulness, the unforgivable sin which renders the person eternally sinful.

Since one rotten apple will spoil the whole barrel, I mean, a little leaven will leaven the whole lump, the eternally rotten, perfectly (fully) leavened, person must be removed from the barrel, ie this reality, so the purity of the heavenly marriage is preserved.
 
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DavidPT

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The infinite punishment is for infinite sinfulness, the unforgivable sin which renders the person eternally sinful.

Since one rotten apple will spoil the whole barrel, I mean, a little leaven will leaven the whole lump, the eternally rotten, perfectly (fully) leavened, person must be removed from the barrel, ie this reality, so the purity of the heavenly marriage is preserved.


Is it your opinion that everyone cast into the LOF, they have all committed the unforgivable sin? Or is it your opinion that only some of them have and that the rest haven't?
 
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TedT

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Is it your opinion that everyone cast into the LOF, they have all committed the unforgivable sin? Or is it your opinion that only some of them have and that the rest haven't?
ImCo:

If the LOF is the condemnation of the final judgment then only those who have committed the unforgivable, unpardonable sin (and have thereby become demons) will experience it. All others who CAN BE saved from the consequences of their choosing to be sinful WILL BE saved no matter how long it takes...(the Arminian fallacy). IOW, no one who can be saved will not be saved and end in hell.
 
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Jipsah

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The infinite punishment is for infinite sinfullnes
Nonsense. Finite beings aren't capable if infnite anything.

the unforgivable sin which renders the person eternally sinful.
So almost everybody commits the Unforgiveble Sin the, right? Must be relatively easy to commit them, isn't it?

Since one rotten apple will spoil the whole barrel, I mean, a little leaven will leaven the whole lump, the eternally rotten, perfectly (fully) leavened, person must be removed from the barrel, ie this reality, so the purity of the heavenly marriage is preserved.
OK, fine. Why not just erasure from time and space, then, and not the barbarous penalty of eternal torture? Sounds ridiculous to me. (That provides you an opportunity for Christian one-upsmanship, so be sure to take advantage of it). If people are broke, why not fix them? If they can't be fixed (too hard for God, maybe?), why not just delete them? Why eternal torture? God get a kick out of it?

The one final problrm remains. Eternal Conscious Torment requires that everyone live forever, either in blis or in torment. The Bible says no such thing. Ever, Anywhere. Not even once. Yeah, y'all ignore that fact, studiously and religiously, but fact it remains. The Bible speaks often of the death of the wicked, but never once of them livng forever, under torture or otherwise "The wages of sin is death...". Not eternal life. "The gift of God is eternal life". Not something that everyone has in any case. The righteous receive the gift of God and live forever. Sinners die. It's in the Bible.
 
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