Why does God need to torture?

[brinny]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HtXvY4XAfdg

 

[Tavita]

.

​

...and the Bible verses as promised:

http://www.carm.org/uni/eternal_hell.htm

Oh I see, how dishonest, you can't write any answers for yourself out of the Bible, brinny, but bring up a well known internet site and an article written by a well known very anti, very hostile (against Universalism) person by the name of Matt Slick. I don't know how many times this has happened in this forum in the last year.

I would suppose that Matt Slick took quite awhile to write this article and you expect us to answer all these different aspects of the doctrine in his article in rebuttal in one night. Oh yeah. Get back to you in a couple of weeks, brinny.....

 

[brinny]

ROFL!!! Did you read it? Haahaahaaaa

do you realize how you seem to me right now? You say Hunter is on ignore? And you say it's too much trouble to respond to the Bible verses in the article?

Didn't you ask me to post Bible verses...and i did and yet you still are experiencing , what? angst?

Haaahaaahaaaaa ok.

 

[Tavita]

...and then we have Satan....

Who Is Satan?​

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=psbDhDKGAJk&feature=related

Questions About Hell​

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ker6uxWRTg0&feature=related

Fiery murmurings, skulls and bones,
darkly moving shadowy groans
Pits of bondage
Howls of pain
haunting sorrows
Gnawing shame
Hope is gone
All is lost
What a pity
What a cost
To cast aside the grace
That would’ve saved you
From this place
​

I would suggest you study the scriptures instead of listening to Christian media and the Apostate teachings of the Church. Be a Berean, and check
out the scriptures FOR YOURSELF to see if these things be so.

 

[brinny]

Oh I see, how dishonest, you can't write any answers for yourself out of the Bible, brinny, but bring up a well known internet site and an article written by a well known very anti, very hostile (against Universalism) person by the name of Matt Slick. I don't know how many times this has happened in this forum in the last year.

I would suppose that Matt Slick took quite awhile to write this article and you expect us to answer all these different aspects of the doctrine in his article in rebuttal in one night. Oh yeah. Get back to you in a couple of weeks, brinny.....

not sure what universalism is....obviously we disagree about at least the God i believe in. I happen to agree with CARM. Every single one of the Bible verses in there i agree with..

and i also agree with this:

"I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. 19 And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book." ~Revelations 22:18

 

[Tavita]

ROFL!!! Did you read it? Haahaahaaaa

do you realize how you seem to me right now? You say Hunter is on ignore? And you say it's too much trouble to respond to the Bible verses in the article?

Didn't you ask me to post Bible verses...and i did and yet you still are experiencing , what? angst?

Haaahaaahaaaaa ok.

I can do that too.... Haaaaaahaaaaahaaaaa.... ok... sheesh, how mature is that!!

In fact, I didn't ask you to post bible verses... you were asked specific questions, and you haven't answered them. Here they are again...

Originally Posted by brinny
Yet, God speaks differently on it. There have always, always will be, those that question..."did He really say..?"...from waaay back in the Garden of Eden the same dynamic took place. God calls the originator of this dynamic a liar and the father of lies.

Can you show me what you're talking about in reference to Hell?

Can you also show me where in Genesis God declared that the consequences for sin is an endless torment?

Can you show me anywhere in the OT that He declared this to man?

What did He say was the consequence for sin? You tell me...

 

[brinny]

I would suggest you study the scriptures instead of listening to Christian media and the Apostate teachings of the Church. Be a Berean, and check
out the scriptures FOR YOURSELF to see if these things be so.

I do check out the scriptures. ...what i find most interesting is the aversion you have to exploriing them. LOL

We can break them down, one by one,...which would you like to start with?

 

[Tavita]

I do check out the scriptures. ...what i find most interesting is the aversion you have to exploriing them. LOL

We can break them down, one by one,...which would you like to start with?

You can start by answering the questions above.

 

[brinny]

I can do that too.... Haaaaaahaaaaahaaaaa.... ok... sheesh, how mature is that!!

In fact, I didn't ask you to post bible verses... you were asked specific questions, and you haven't answered them. Here they are again...

​

you mean these?

Can you show me what you're talking about in reference to Hell?

absolutely. My belief lines up exactly in line with what is written in CARM. Read it.

Can you also show me where in Genesis God declared that the consequences for sin is an endless torment?

Did you mean that you don't know about the curse that was imposed on His creation in the Garden of Eden before Adam and Eve, were not politely asked to leave, they were driven out. Death had begun. Separation from God had commenced. They were at satan's mercy now. Only thing is, he ain't got none. Remember what God said about the woman's seed crushing the serpent's head? Did you read Revelations?

Can you show me anywhere in the OT that He declared this to man?

Be specific.

What did He say was the consequence for sin? You tell me...

eternal separation from God and to be put in a prison of sorts with satan and his minions ......it ties into why Jesus the Christ died a death that He sweat as it were, drops of blood in the Garden of Gethsemane about.

Consequences of sin? Are you saying there are none? That Christ died for nought??? That it's not a big deal to a holy God that sin permeates His creation?

 

[brinny]

http://www.apocalipsis.org/difficulties/eternaltorture.htm

 

[Armistead]

LOL!.. I'm not yelling at anyone. Sure you're not imagining things?

I think this person has you confused with someone else

 

[Armistead]

...and then we have Satan....

Who Is Satan?​

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=psbDhDKGAJk&feature=related

Questions About Hell​

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ker6uxWRTg0&feature=related

Fiery murmurings, skulls and bones,
darkly moving shadowy groans
Pits of bondage
Howls of pain
haunting sorrows
Gnawing shame
Hope is gone
All is lost
What a pity
What a cost
To cast aside the grace
That would’ve saved you
From this place​

I'll be back with Bible verses. I appreciate the invitation and the interest.

...and the Bible verses as promised:

http://www.carm.org/uni/eternal_hell.htm

Geesh,,, we've been through this simple logic before that even ET'ers don't bring it up..

and by the way....who created Satan in the first place?

 

[Armistead]

not sure what universalism is....obviously we disagree about at least the God i believe in. I happen to agree with CARM. Every single one of the Bible verses in there i agree with..

and i also agree with this:

"I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. 19 And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book." ~Revelations 22:18

You are right, no one should add or take away from the book..Yet man has when he added the pagan teachings on hell.

Read these verse clearly and slowly...let them creep into your mind and the truth will follow.

15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.

17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.

19 For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell, 20 and by Him to reconcile (apokatallasso) all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

How marvelous and how wonderful this scripture is! This is unquestionably and without any doubt, the full good news of the gospel of Jesus Christ. There is no bad news here whatsoever. Think about it! God will do what? God will reconcile ALL things on earth and ALL things in heaven through Jesus Christ having made PEACE through the blood of His cross.

Please note that the construct of the verses above are such that they leave absolutely no room for any doubt whatsoever that the word ALL can only mean ALL without any exception. Apostle Paul, inspired by the Holy Spirit, repeats the word ALL seven times before coming to the key verse, verse 20, where it says that God will reconcile all things to Himself through Jesus Christ. If you believe verse 16, in that Jesus Christ created all things in heaven, all things visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers, then you have no option but to also believe verse 20, which says that Jesus Christ will reconcile to God the Father the same all things, which He created.

Traditional Christianity, because of its long established and entrenched belief in the doctrine of Eternal Torture in Hell, is unable to accept at face value, the glorious truth contained in verse 20. This is why it has failed to understand God's Plan of Universal Reconciliation, which God is working out in Ages through Jesus Christ.

If you believe in the doctrine of endless torment in hell, then you do not believe in Colossians 1:15-20, and in your mind you have added to or taken away from the truth contained in these verses. Jesus Christ warns us not to add to or take away from His Word. (Revelation 22:18-19) The Bible is the Word of God and it never contradicts itself. The doctrine of hell and the truth of universal reconciliation through Jesus Christ cannot both be true at the same time. All contradictions in the Bible are totally due to either man's mistranslation or misinterpretation of the original relevant Hebrew, Aramaic or Greek words.

 

[HuntingMan]

The doctrine of hell and the truth of universal reconciliation through Jesus Christ cannot both be true at the same time.

Youre right, they CANT be..therefore UR is a hellspawned lie of Satan to dupe people in these last days into believing they dont really have to be saved .....

Read these verse clearly and slowly...let them creep into your mind and the truth will follow.

You do it as well...

And these shall go away into eternal punishment,
but the righteous into eternal life.
(Mat 25:31-46 EMTV)



Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth;
they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life;
and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
(Joh 5)



And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
(Rev 20:4-15 KJV)

 

[HuntingMan]

Yet man has when he added the pagan teachings on hell.

AGAIN I ASK YOU to provide EVIDENCE that the early church was UR.....WHY are you ignoring this demand, Armistead....is it that you know you DONt HAVE this evidence ??????

 

[3rddaymessenger]

Then your beef is with Jesus Christ and the Father for failing to protect the Word of Truth that DOES teach eternal torment...

I don't know, man, maybe if you changed your mood...it might help. Confusion is definitly not of God. But then that is the very definitiuon of Babylon aint it? Confusion and mixture. Uncertainty of voices....where even Eternity is brought down to the base concepts of the carnal mind.

Think about...there is still TIME. Eternity: never had a beginning, will never end...which can only be God and His Life. All else is of a "time" element and temporal.

 

[HuntingMan]

I don't know, man, maybe if you changed your mood...it might help. Confusion is definitly not of God. But then that is the very definitiuon of Babylon aint it? Confusion and mixture. Uncertainty of voices....where even Eternity is brought down to the base concepts of the carnal mind.

Think about...there is still TIME. Eternity: never had a beginning, will never end...which can only be God and His Life. All else is of a "time" element and temporal.

'eternity' as far as 'aionios' goes in scripture means 'perpetually'...deal with it.

 

[Armistead]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HtXvY4XAfdg

If this person had his way, he would bring back burning people at the stake, boiling people in water, ripping bowels out on a rolling pin, ect...

Sad the attitude eternal torture has created in people. If not for secular law, he would be lighting the flames why praising God....I guess we should be thankful for secular law...we would be on the rack now without it.

but if God is not nice.....we deserve it....

Tav, do you want the stake or to be boiled....I claim beheading, so you can't have that one...If they drown you, you may be dead, but at least
you'll be innocent.

It really shows how sick the concept is and what it does to people.

 

[Armistead]

AGAIN I ASK YOU to provide EVIDENCE that the early church was UR.....WHY are you ignoring this demand, Armistead....is it that you know you DONt HAVE this evidence ??????

I'm sorry, first I've seen this...So, if I can prove this,,,clearly without question,,will you confess UR?

I'll do it anyway....I'll start a thread on it tomorrow.

 

[brinny]

If this person had his way, he would bring back burning people at the stake, boiling people in water, ripping bowels out on a rolling pin, ect...

Sad the attitude eternal torture has created in people. If not for secular law, he would be lighting the flames why praising God....I guess we should be thankful for secular law...we would be on the rack now without it.

but if God is not nice.....we deserve it....

Tav, do you want the stake or to be boiled....I claim beheading, so you can't have that one...If they drown you, you may be dead, but at least
you'll be innocent.

It really shows how sick the concept is and what it does to people.

The video? You didn't like what he said? What is your point?

What specifically do you not agree with? You gave an opinion, ok.....that's all you got to say?