Why does God need to torture?

[Armistead]

I find it ironic that a guy who wrote a book on Hell would have the surname "Furniss" ("furnace")....

.

It's amazing to study the sermons of those that believe in ET and preached it. It's easy to see how they could torture their fellow man.

Imagine being able to praise God while watching someones bowels being
rolled up on a pin.

What's sad, the men that did these acts through history are so beloved by the ET believers today. Their doctrines are foundations for them.

There can be no doubt that the doctrine of ET has brought about more
evil on this earth than anything else. It's actually responsible for turning the majority of man from God. No wonder people today turn from God.

If UR was taught by all these ET'ers, they would see the world start turning to God.

 

[Rajni]

It's amazing to study the sermons of those that believe in ET and preached it. It's easy to see how they could torture their fellow man.

Imagine being able to praise God while watching someones bowels being
rolled up on a pin.

What's sad, the men that did these acts through history are so beloved by the ET believers today. Their doctrines are foundations for them.

There can be no doubt that the doctrine of ET has brought about more
evil on this earth than anything else. It's actually responsible for turning the majority of man from God. No wonder people today turn from God.

If UR was taught by all these ET'ers, they would see the world start turning to God.

.

 

[Hentenza]

I read John 3:18 from the standpoint that those who refused to take seriously Jesus' message while He was here on the earth were condemned to suffer through the dreadful days that involved the fall of Jerusalem. They ended up perishing in their sins as a result, having never accepted, in their earthly life, the forgiveness that was theirs through Christ's sacrifice. Since they remained in their Old Covenant ways, they came to their dreadful end that was prophesied by Christ in Luke 13:3-5:

"I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish. Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them—do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish."​

Hi Chaela,

John 3:18 does not support a preterist view. Actually the whole of the Gospel of John does not support a preterist view. John 3:18 has all of us as an audience. It is as binding then as it is now. The message is for all of mankind, past and present. The message of the verse is also clear, either believe and be saved or not believe and stand condemned.

Luke 13:3-5 is directed at the Galileans. Verse 2 tells you who Jesus is speaking about.

2Jesus answered, "Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way?

BTW- Can you post a link to the C&P that you used.

 

[HuntingMan]

READERS SEE posts #1 and #2 here for the undeniable truth about eternal punishment
http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7278950

...

 

[Rajni]

Hi Chaela,

John 3:18 does not support a preterist view. Actually the whole of the Gospel of John does not support a preterist view. John 3:18 has all of us as an audience. It is as binding then as it is now. The message is for all of mankind, past and present. The message of the verse is also clear, either believe and be saved or not believe and stand condemned.

The timeframes covered in Matthew through John are still primarily under the Old Covenant. I am becoming increasingly convinced that they're far more supportive of a preterist view than a futurist one, but that's just where I'm at currently.

BTW- Can you post a link to the C&P that you used.

Sorry for the dumb question, but what's a C&P? :o


.

 

[Hentenza]

I've given several times.

God will save all mankind, but it's in his order, not ours. All have already been saved through the cross, what happens after death is God will bring all men unto the knowledge of Christ.

Hi Armistead,

God will save those who believe. That is his promise. God has not promised to save the wicked. There are no verses that support that view.

7. Romans 11:32
For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.

This verse specifically refers to all Jews who die as unbelievers, but it also applies to all Gentiles who die as unbelievers. It is not God’s purpose to save all people before they die but only a few, His Elect. However, God’s mercy will prevail on all people and ultimately, in God’s time and His order, all people will be saved.

I agree that the verse that you quote apply to the Jews but I don;t see where it applies to the gentiles. Verse 28 disagrees with your assumption since the Gospel is for anyone that will listen but God's covenant with Israel was through Abraham and only applies to the Jews. Notice that verse 28 makes it clear that the Jews are beloved for the sake of the fathers and there is no mention of gentiles.

28From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God's choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers;

1 Corinthians 15:22-26
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.

Clearly, God will save people in his order, notice "Christ the firtstfruits, afterward those at his coming...then the end when he deliverss the kingdom to the father. Who will be saved...All that died in Adam..all humanity will be made alive through Christ.

Unfortunately you again fail to take the verses in context. Please read verses 12-19 which reveal what Paul is talking about.

12Now if Christ is preached, that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?
13But if there is no resurrection of the dead, not even Christ has been raised;
14and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain.
15Moreover we are even found to be false witnesses of God, because we testified against God that He raised Christ, whom He did not raise, if in fact the dead are not raised.
16For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised;
17and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins.
18Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.
19If we have hoped in Christ in this life only, we are of all men most to be pitied.



Paul is talking about the resurrection of the dead not that all will be saved. Paul even makes an admonition that our faith would be worthless if Christ hasn't risen and that we would still be in our sins. Again your argument falls because the opposite is still correct.

5. 1 Timothy 4:9-11
9 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance. 10 For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe. 11 These things command and teach.

Notice that it is a command from God to teach the truth that God is the Saviour of All People. How can God be the Saviour of All people and yet not save them ALL?

Because if we believe then we are saved. The Gospel is indeed preached to all but those that reject it are condemned. The beginning of 1 Timothy 4 speaks about apostasy. It is clear that the apostates are in great peril. Do you think that those that have a deceitful spirit and the doctrines of demons are righteous in the eyes of the Lord?

22 "Look to Me, and be saved, All you ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other. 23 I have sworn by Myself; The word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness, And shall not return, That to Me every knee shall bow, Every tongue shall take an oath. 24 He shall say, 'Surely in the LORD I have righteousness and strength. To Him men shall come, And all shall be ashamed Who are incensed against Him. 25 In the LORD all the descendants of Israel Shall be justified, and shall glory.'"

This is another beautiful and clear Old Testament scripture upholding the powerful truth of Universal Salvation. Notice that every knee will bow and every tongue will confess because they receive righteousness and strength from the Lord. This agrees with Philippians 2:9-11, which also says that everyone will worship God and give Him all the glory. Those who believe in hell twist these scriptures to interpret that God will force unbelievers to worship Him in hell. A forced worship can never give glory to God.

Actually Isaiah 45:22 gives you a conditional statement so it does not support UR at all. The condition is "Look" to me (Greek "Panah" which means to turn). The condition is that you have to "turn" (Panah) to God in order to be saved. Again, your argument misses the mark because the opposite is also true. The opposite would be that "If" one doesn't turn (Panah) to God then one is not saved.
Also, verse 25 tells you "who" is Isaiah talking about. Isaiah is talking about the Jews not about the gentiles.

25 But in the LORD all the descendants of Israel
will be found righteous and will exult.

Philipians 2 does not support your position either. Please read verses 12 and 13.

12So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling; 13for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.



We are to work our (Christians) salvation with fear and trembling. Again the opposite applies.

Colossians 1:15-20
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.

17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.

19 For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell, 20 and by Him to reconcile (apokatallasso) all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross

These verses clearly show Christ will reconcile all things in heaven and earth, including Satan and all fallen angels. What is important is how they are reconciled...through the cross.

You have already quoted these verses above and I have already given you my answer above.

Most of mankind has never heard the gospel or about Christ. How are they going to be saved if Christ is the only way....through the cross.

Actually, most of mankind has indeed heard the Gospel. Please refer to the following pie chart.

http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html

It is obvious that the people of the world have made choices . Some have rejected the gospel which leads to condemnation. Some still have not heard so we have to bring the Gospel to them as commanded by the great commission. There would be no reason to spread the Gospel is all are going to be saved at the end.

Children cannot understand, if they die, how will they be saved, through
the cross.

Those on earth that are God's elect repent now as we should. Simply, these are the ones that came to the knowledge of Christ why on earth. However, most of man has not, due to many factors. How will they be saved, through the cross, but they will only come to the knowledge of God through his refinement. God's refinement, what we all refer to as the LOF.

Mankind is already saved..There is no getting saved after death. What happens after death is when all men come to the knowledge of Christ.
God will use the correct methods to make them understand and accept what is already theirs....

Mankind is sinful. None are saved unless they repent and come to Christ. Christ is the only way, the light. No one can come to the Father unless they come through Christ.

BTW- None of the verses that you have cited above justify redemption after physical death. Again, I ask you, can you point me to any verses that teach that any will be saved after physical death?


Brother, I see that you have chosen a perilious path. As a fellow Baptist I would like to extend my help to you. My pm is open to you.

 

[Armistead]

Hi Armistead,

God will save those who believe. That is his promise. God has not promised to save the wicked. There are no verses that support that view.


I agree that the verse that you quote apply to the Jews but I don;t see where it applies to the gentiles. Verse 28 disagrees with your assumption since the Gospel is for anyone that will listen but God's covenant with Israel was through Abraham and only applies to the Jews. Notice that verse 28 makes it clear that the Jews are beloved for the sake of the fathers and there is no mention of gentiles.

Unfortunately you again fail to take the verses in context. Please read verses 12-19 which reveal what Paul is talking about.

12Now if Christ is preached, that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?
13But if there is no resurrection of the dead, not even Christ has been raised;
14and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain.
15Moreover we are even found to be false witnesses of God, because we testified against God that He raised Christ, whom He did not raise, if in fact the dead are not raised.
16For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised;
17and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins.
18Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.
19If we have hoped in Christ in this life only, we are of all men most to be pitied.



Paul is talking about the resurrection of the dead not that all will be saved. Paul even makes an admonition that our faith would be worthless if Christ hasn't risen and that we would still be in our sins. Again your argument falls because the opposite is still correct.


Because if we believe then we are saved. The Gospel is indeed preached to all but those that reject it are condemned. The beginning of 1 Timothy 4 speaks about apostasy. It is clear that the apostates are in great peril. Do you think that those that have a deceitful spirit and the doctrines of demons are righteous in the eyes of the Lord?


Actually Isaiah 45:22 gives you a conditional statement so it does not support UR at all. The condition is "Look" to me (Greek "Panah" which means to turn). The condition is that you have to "turn" (Panah) to God in order to be saved. Again, your argument misses the mark because the opposite is also true. The opposite would be that "If" one doesn't turn (Panah) to God then one is not saved.
Also, verse 25 tells you "who" is Isaiah talking about. Isaiah is talking about the Jews not about the gentiles.

25 But in the LORD all the descendants of Israel
will be found righteous and will exult.

Philipians 2 does not support your position either. Please read verses 12 and 13.

12So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling; 13for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.



We are to work our (Christians) salvation with fear and trembling. Again the opposite applies.



You have already quoted these verses above and I have already given you my answer above.


Actually, most of mankind has indeed heard the Gospel. Please refer to the following pie chart.

http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html

It is obvious that the people of the world have made choices . Some have rejected the gospel which leads to condemnation. Some still have not heard so we have to bring the Gospel to them as commanded by the great commission. There would be no reason to spread the Gospel is all are going to be saved at the end.

Children cannot understand, if they die, how will they be saved, through
the cross.

Mankind is sinful. None are saved unless they repent and come to Christ. Christ is the only way, the light. No one can come to the Father unless they come through Christ.

BTW- None of the verses that you have cited above justify redemption after physical death. Again, I ask you, can you point me to any verses that teach that any will be saved after physical death?


Brother, I see that you have chosen a perilious path. As a fellow Baptist I would like to extend my help to you. My pm is open to you.

No, I haven't chosen a perilious path. You may be just coming into this debate. We have covered your concerns so many numerous times, I am tiring of repeating them. No offense, but we just keep repeating the same stuff.

Let me clarify again...All are already saved before death. There is no salvation after death. After death, many will come to the knowledge of Christ. It's like finding a gift that someone gave you years ago. You may
have not known about it for years, but the gift was still there.

However, rather than cover all these same questions over, I will PM you and we can start again off the board.

I will say, the majority of mankind since Christ has never heard the gospel.
Take some time to study from when Christ said "he was the only way" and track how long it took for the gospel to spread throughout the world.

Just what you learned in middle school should tell you a lot already. When Christ made that statement, I would think it took effect then.

There were several million people on the earth according to science/history and most died never hearing. It took a hundred years for the gospel just to spread out of the region. It took over a thousand before it barely touched the corners of the earth. Even, then it was a touch. Only in the last 100 years has the gospel been heard through most of the earth, but there are still possible millions that haven't heard...

No, most of mankind hasn't heard the gospel since Christ said he was the only way.

And I will PM you and we can just take things one at a time. I look forward to it. Working most of the weekend, but will try tonight.

 

[Tavita]

No, I haven't chosen a perilious path. You may be just coming into this debate. We have covered your concerns so many numerous times, I am tiring of repeating them. No offense, but we just keep repeating the same stuff.

Let me clarify again...All are already saved before death. There is no salvation after death. After death, many will come to the knowledge of Christ. It's like finding a gift that someone gave you years ago. You may
have not known about it for years, but the gift was still there.

However, rather than cover all these same questions over, I will PM you and we can start again off the board.

I will say, the majority of mankind since Christ has never heard the gospel.
Take some time to study from when Christ said "he was the only way" and track how long it took for the gospel to spread throughout the world.

Just what you learned in middle school should tell you a lot already. When Christ made that statement, I would think it took effect then.

There were several million people on the earth according to science/history and most died never hearing. It took a hundred years for the gospel just to spread out of the region. It took over a thousand before it barely touched the corners of the earth. Even, then it was a touch. Only in the last 100 years has the gospel been heard through most of the earth, but there are still possible millions that haven't heard...

No, most of mankind hasn't heard the gospel since Christ said he was the only way.

And I will PM you and we can just take things one at a time. I look forward to it. Working most of the weekend, but will try tonight.

This is a tremendously important point, Armistead:

Let me clarify again...All are already saved before death. There is no salvation after death. After death, many will come to the knowledge of Christ. It's like finding a gift that someone gave you years ago. You may
have not known about it for years, but the gift was still there.

All mankind is ALREADY saved, it's a matter of appropriating that redemption. Jesus ALREADY paid the price on the cross, He has already done the work. He will not be crucified afresh each time someone comes to Him, and will not be crucified afresh in the next age. His sacrifice covers ALL for ALL time and ages.

During most wars there are always pockets of soldiers in remote places who don't hear when the war is ended. They continue to fight on until news of their freedom from that war has ended. It's our job to let people know they have been reconciled to God ALREADY. That is the ministry of reconciliation that we must be part of.