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Why does God need to torture?

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HuntingMan

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The Greek word, Hades, and the Hebrew, Sheol, are the place of the dead until the resurrections which are translated as Hell in our older versions of the Bible.

Gehenna was a rubbish dump outside the gates of Jerusalem where the bodies of criminals were thrown. There were also huge worms that lived in the dump and the fires burned continuously. They burn no longer as the area is a parkland now.

The Lake of Fire is the second death described only in the Revelation of Jesus Christ where the enemies of God are burned. Nowhere in scripture does it say this burning is endless. To go into the Greek meanings of the words, forever, eternal and eternity is another subject, but the English words to not really portray the real meanings/interpretations of the words.
The second death takes place after the Great White Throne Judgment.
In other words, brinny, Tavita here just REdefines anything that gets in the way ....our scholars apparently were complete morons and our God completely INEPT and UNABLE to protect His word for many centuries....

Not something *I* am ever going to buy into and I doubt it will be an easy sell for many other believers either.
 
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brinny

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Originally Posted by brinny
Yet, God speaks differently on it. There have always, always will be, those that question..."did He really say..?"...from waaay back in the Garden of Eden the same dynamic took place. God calls the originator of this dynamic a liar and the father of lies.

Can you show me what you're talking about in reference to Hell?

Can you also show me where in Genesis God declared that the consequences for sin is an endless torment? Can you show me anywhere in the OT that He declared this to man?

What did He say was the consequence for sin? You tell me...

I'm sorry. I thought you knew the Bible. Do you?
 
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HuntingMan

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Can you also show me where in Genesis God declared that the consequences for sin is an endless torment?
Pathetic nonsense.
So if God doesnt declare ALL truth IN Genesis then it isnt truth ?

I cant even express words to describe what this absurd argument is without surely bending the rules here.


Can you show me anywhere in the OT that He declared this to man?
Yeah, we can,...and its been shown to you BEFORE but you just ignore it

And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
some to everlasting life, and
some to shame and everlasting contempt.
(Dan 12:2 KJV)

H5769
עלם / עולם
‛ôlâm
BDB Definition:
1) long duration, antiquity, futurity, for ever, ever, everlasting, evermore, perpetual, old, ancient, world
1a) ancient time, long time (of past)
1b) (of future)
1b1) for ever, always
1b2) continuous existence, perpetual
1b3) everlasting, indefinite or unending future, eternity
 
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Tavita

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i could be wrong, sister in Christ, but for some reason i get a sense you're yelling sorta as you type your words.

Wanna talk about it?

LOL!.. I'm not yelling at anyone. Sure you're not imagining things?
 
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HuntingMan

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Scripture says He saved us from sin and death..... where does it say He saved us from endless torment?
Nothing but semantics.
Scripture SHOWS us TWO ETERNAL destinies for mankind.
one of life with Him...the other eternal damnation.

We dont NEED to see what YOU are demanding to see and such demands shows complete lack of understanding as far as HOW research and study is carried out

How can He save us from endless torment when He didn't go there Himself?
:D
Good grief.
That place is for SINNERS, not the Son of GOD...

His SACRIFICE atones for SIN that causes us to go there.....

I honestly dont know how some here can seriously remain in these discussions
Death is the last enemy that will be destroyed... how can anyone 'live' in death endlessly? It's an oxymoron. Unbelievers do not have immortality.
And this 'last enemy' you folks run on about has been EXPOSED as not being what you are claiming it is.
This last enemy is defeated at the RESURRECTION



Resurrection

This study will be about the different aspects of final resurrection. We will be looking at different passages in God's word and seeing how they fit together to determine what we can expect at resurrection.


1.0
Here firstly is a wonderfully clear passage from 1 Corinthians 15 that lays out a very details picture about resurrection of the dead and how this resurrection by Christ of all men defeats 'death' (of these bodies).
"death" is defeated BY this resurrection...
Now if Christ is preached that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ has not been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain and your faith also is vain! And we are found to be false witnesses of God, because we bore witness concerning God, that He raised Christ, whom He did not raise--if in fact the dead are not raised. For if the dead are not raised, then neither has Christ been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins! Then also those who have died in Christ have perished.

If in this life only we have hoped in Christ, we are of all men the most pitiable. But now Christ has been raised from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have died. For since by a man death came, also by a Man comes the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all will be made alive. But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then those who belong to Christ at His coming. Then will be the end, when He hands over the kingdom to God, even the Father, when He abolishes every ruler and every authority and power. For He must reign till He puts all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be abolished is death. For "He has subjected all things under His feet." But when He says that "all things have been subjected," it is evident that this is except for Him who subjected all things to Him.

Now when all things are made subject to Him, then also the Son Himself will be subjected to Him who subjected all things to Him, in order that God may be all in all. Otherwise, what will they do who are being baptized for the dead, if the dead are not raised at all? Why are they also baptized for the dead? And why are we also in danger every hour? I affirm, by my boasting in you which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily. If, in the manner of men, I fought with beasts at Ephesus, what is the benefit to me? If the dead are not raised, "Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die!" Do not be deceived: "Evil associations corrupts good habits." Awake to righteousness, and do not sin, for some have no knowledge of God. I speak this to your shame.

But someone will say, "How are the dead raised? And with what sort of body do they come?" Fool, what you sow is not made alive unless it dies. And what you sow, you do not sow that body that will be, but a bare grain--perhaps wheat or some other grains. But God gives to it a body just as He desired, and to each of the seeds its own body. All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is a different kind of flesh for men, and another flesh for beasts, another for fish, and another for birds. And there are celestial bodies, and terrestrial bodies; but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differs from another star in glory.

So also is the resurrection of the dead.
The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption.
It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory.
It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power.
It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.
There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
Thus also it is written, "The first man Adam became a living soul;" the last Adam became a life-giving spirit. However, that which is spiritual is not first, but that which is natural, then that which is spiritual.
(1Co 15:12-46 EMTV)
We see in this previous passage that resurrection is the reviving of our bodies from the corruptible into the incorruptible. We will be raised with spiritual bodies instead of these worn down shells that are prone to sickness and death.

2.0
Eternal outcomes.

And here we see where those are are resurrected end up....
Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth;
they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life;
and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
(Joh 5)

CONTEXT poster...CONTEXT....
 
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Tavita

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I'm sorry. I thought you knew the Bible. Do you?

You haven't answered my questions yet or acknowledged any scripture I've given you.

Is this the only way you can communicate? Or don't you have anything to back up what you say?

I say it again.... you haven't answered my questions.
 
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brinny

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Originally Posted by brinny
i could be wrong, sister in Christ, but for some reason i get a sense you're yelling sorta as you type your words.

Wanna talk about it?

LOL!.. I'm not yelling at anyone. Sure you're not imagining things?

I apologize. I sensed a certain tenseness to the pressure you used to bang out your response....

i'm here if ya wanna talk
 
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brinny

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You haven't answered my questions yet or acknowledged any scripture I've given you.

Is this the only way you can communicate? Or don't you have anything to back up what you say?

I say it again.... you haven't answered my questions.

there goes that pressure again....maybe you didn't notice, but HuntingMan already has, and then some. Yet you ignore his posts.

Hmmm.....
 
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Rajni

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I'm sorry. I thought you knew the Bible. Do you?

Do you need help answering those questions, Brinny? I sensed a certain hesitancy on your part to deal with them head-on. Just let me know if you do! :)

Here they are again:

Can you show me what you're talking about in reference to Hell?

Can you also show me where in Genesis God declared that the consequences for sin is an endless torment? Can you show me anywhere in the OT that He declared this to man?

What did He say was the consequence for sin? You tell me...




.
 
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Tavita

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Do you need help answering those questions, Brinny? I sensed a certain hesitancy on your part to deal with them head-on. Just let me know if you do! :)

Here they are again:

I'm wondering if she can answer anything herself.
 
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Rajni

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How sweet of you chaela. :D

what i'm finding interesting is that HuntingMan has, and they've been ignored.

What are your answers to the questions, Brinny? Perhaps your responses to them might be harder for anyone to ignore. :)


.



.
 
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Bellicus

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I have to admit that things like hell make no sense to me. That's the only honest thing I can say. By my human understanding, a God that make people suffer from bad things forever, is giving a worse kind of punishment then any human could give each other. And humans are evil and God is good. So where is the logic?

We can say that: Humans do it to themselves. But still if God is Almighty, then He can simply rescue humans from hell.

We can also say: Humans that go to hell deserve it. I remember seeing a news article a while ago about a British "Child-molesting Nazi terrorist" and that is probably as bad as it gets by today's moral standards. And maybe we could agree that some thousand of years in hell would be a fitting punishment. But would we be just as sure about a billion years in hell as punishment? And how about

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billion years in hell (And thats not even the start of the early beginning of hell). I think most people would start to think that he had learned his lesson by that, and probably never would be a Child-molesting Nazi Terrorist again. Even the most hard-hearten person would probably agree: Well, enough, pull him out of there and give him a cup of water. So honestly, that don't make sense either.

The only thing that do make sense (by human logic's) is that if a person reject God and end up in hell, this is something that can't be changed, not by God and not by humans. The bible mentions "the second death" and I guess this means that the soul dies from rejecting God and the only thing that keeps the soul alive here on earth, is that we have a body to live in, and that we are more a body then a living soul. Jesus said "let the dead bury the dead". Something that is dead, is dead. It has come to a end, and will be no more. So the logic would be that God is able to wake a human body up from the dead, but for some reason He cannot wake a dead soul from the dead. The revelation also mention that Death it self will be cast into the lake of fire. And by using my limited mind, I understand that Death is not a actual object that God tosses into a actual lake of fire, but by adding this to the lake of fire some strange reaction must happen.

Death+Dead Souls=?

I can't see the answer myself.

But I trust though that God really is light, that there is no darkness in him. So no matter what will happen, I guess we will have no other choice then to praise him for his Justice, Love and Wisdom. Thats the God I know.
 
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brinny

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brinny

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...and then we have Satan....

Who Is Satan?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=psbDhDKGAJk&feature=related


Questions About Hell


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ker6uxWRTg0&feature=related

Fiery murmurings, skulls and bones,
darkly moving shadowy groans
Pits of bondage
Howls of pain
haunting sorrows
Gnawing shame
Hope is gone
All is lost
What a pity
What a cost
To cast aside the grace
That would’ve saved you
From this place




I'll be back with Bible verses. I appreciate the invitation and the interest.

...and the Bible verses as promised:

http://www.carm.org/uni/eternal_hell.htm
 
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3rddaymessenger

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Maybe we can get some different responces and more people involved, rather that just debate UR.

Why does God need to torture people for eternity?

What is this place that unbelievers are destined for, that Christians are trying (or supposed to be trying) so desperately to save people from? Whatever it is, God died so I wouldn’t have to go there.

Hell, God's eternal torture chamber, where the greater part of all humanity will spend eternity. What is the purpose of this place? Well, punishment, Christians tell us. But punishment for what purpose? Since there is no remedial value to hell, no chance of learning your lesson and getting let out, what good does the punishment do?

Even the most cruel human torturers usually have a reason for their torture. Make the appropriate confessions, tell them what they want to know, and the torture will usually stop. Or at the very least, you can eventually die. But Christians make God out to be the very worst kind of torturer

As a Christian, I was always uncomfortable with this. In an attempt to explain hell while leaving God's reputation for fairness intact, I deferred to a more C.S. Lewis-type explanation. Rather than having God create a place like Hell and sending people there, I saw Hell more as a result of rejecting God. It was the ultimate "you got what you asked for." God was saying, "You really don't want me around? Fine. I'll leave." And the result was hell, the absence of everything good, which vanished when God did.
But then traditional christianity teaches God is omnipresent..all places at all times...how can he be that and not be in hell.

In America we pride ourselves in prohibiting something called "cruel and unusual punishment." We look aghast at dictatorial regimes that torture its prisoners and dissidents. Yet even the worst atrocities committed under the cruelest tyrants of this world are nothing when compared to what Christians say God has in store for us. A poignant way to illustrate this is to look at what Christians believe about Jews, especially Jews that were imprisoned in Nazi concentration camps. Although Christians generally do not discuss this, it is what they must believe, for it is built into their system of "divine justice."

Christians define as hell bound anyone who does not accept Jesus as Lord and Savior. This includes just about all practicing Jews. So imagine this scenario: as the millions of Jews slaughtered in Hitler's death camps passed into the afterlife, they awoke to find themselves burning in hell. Not only was there a lack of food there, there was no food. Not only was there poor drinking water, there was no water. Not only was there pain, there was the most intense pain imaginable, and it was unrelenting. Sort of like being tossed into the ovens of Auschwitz alive over and over. And not only did this suffering just seem like it would never end, it really never would.

Most of these Jews certainly were praying to God, loved him, cherished
the moment they were released from the pain, Certainly at nights you could hear the cries and pleas to God as they suffered so. Just imagine how they will feel when they face the God they loved and find he is worse than Hitler.

Simply what is it in God's Character the need to torture forever...or for you moderates,,seperate himself forever from the mass of his creation.

You're right, brother, this idea of etenal suffering in hell is a falsehood, and an erroneous picture of God. You explain it quite well...the cruel and unusual punishment thing...I like that.

I do believe that unbelievers and rejectors of Christ are eternally cut off from God, but not this etenal suffering thing. No, one would need "Eternal Life" to experience that.
 
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