Why does God leave no tracks?

[Xalith]

snip

That's some good evidence there.

However, if they don't like that, how about the "Simple Cell", which isn't so "simple"?

That thing that the Theory of Evolution revolves around which is just utterly silly.

The "Simple" Cell consists of thousands of working parts, and if you were to subtract just one of those parts, the thing would cease to function. All of these parts are inter-dependant upon one another otherwise the whole thing falls apart.

If this is the simplest organism that we've ever found... where did all the individual parts come from? Who or what assembled them in such a way that allows it to not only live, but also survive?

Did some goop somehow form together to make a complex machine-like entity that lives, functions, and reproduces on its own without any outside force?

Why do the parts of the "Simple Cell" that we can see resemble modern-day machinery? (ever looked up microscopic pics of a bacteria flagella? It looks like a modern day rotor engine, only at a tiny fraction of the size and it works exactly the same way!)

How about the DNA structure? It's a binary data storage system that can "unzip" itself, make a copy and "re-zip" itself and it is so complex that we are still studying it to this day, despite our ridiculously powerful computers. It is more complex and advanced than any data system we've managed to create in modern technology.

Data, and language, doesn't just appear out of nowhere; it has to be created by something intelligent. But yet, back when there was no man, where was the intelligence that created it? Even if you're some whacko that believes in alien intervention... who created the aliens, then? Surely they, too, had to come from somewhere?

Atheists (and the science they worship) have no explanation for any of these questions.
Christians, however, can easily explain it: God would have easily had the ability, knowledge, and wisdom to make these wonders.

 

[Peter1000]

That's some good evidence there.

However, if they don't like that, how about the "Simple Cell", which isn't so "simple"?

That thing that the Theory of Evolution revolves around which is just utterly silly.

The "Simple" Cell consists of thousands of working parts, and if you were to subtract just one of those parts, the thing would cease to function. All of these parts are inter-dependant upon one another otherwise the whole thing falls apart.

If this is the simplest organism that we've ever found... where did all the individual parts come from? Who or what assembled them in such a way that allows it to not only live, but also survive?

Did some goop somehow form together to make a complex machine-like entity that lives, functions, and reproduces on its own without any outside force?

Why do the parts of the "Simple Cell" that we can see resemble modern-day machinery? (ever looked up microscopic pics of a bacteria flagella? It looks like a modern day rotor engine, only at a tiny fraction of the size and it works exactly the same way!)

How about the DNA structure? It's a binary data storage system that can "unzip" itself, make a copy and "re-zip" itself and it is so complex that we are still studying it to this day, despite our ridiculously powerful computers. It is more complex and advanced than any data system we've managed to create in modern technology.

Data, and language, doesn't just appear out of nowhere; it has to be created by something intelligent. But yet, back when there was no man, where was the intelligence that created it? Even if you're some whacko that believes in alien intervention... who created the aliens, then? Surely they, too, had to come from somewhere?

Atheists (and the science they worship) have no explanation for any of these questions.
Christians, however, can easily explain it: God would have easily had the ability, knowledge, and wisdom to make these wonders.

Thanks for cell info.

Again, the idea that chance is the provider of an ultra complex single cell, is being smothered by the chance mathmatics. The probability of a single cell just coming into existence from nothing is so astonomical as to push the probability so close to 0, that it is 0. There is no refuting this math.

I take nothing away from true science, it is a wonderful profession. It has just got hi-jacked by mostly atheistic persons that are using science to prove there is no God. For some very powerful scientists, that is their goal. Truth is not worth going for, but if they can somehow find proof that there is no God, then it will be their happy day. Too bad for mankind.
So godless scientists overlook the cell beginning and go from there. That's how they overcome it.

We, however, have another option, and that is a Superior Intelligence we call God, that has the knowledge and power to build even one single cell, let alone complex organisms to fill the earth with His wonder and glory.

What a major track. Extremely difficult to miss.

 

[Peter1000]

What you are saying is not only completely made up, but it's not even supported in the Bible.

Satan and demons.
False gods, false idols.
The Egypt show down with Moses and the priests of Pharoah.
Condemning witchcraft and sorcery.

Completely made up? Not supported by the bible?

Are we talking the Christain bible? Because these are central themes of the Christian bible.

What bible are you talking about?

 

[Xalith]

Satan and demons.
False gods, false idols.
The Egypt show down with Moses and the priests of Pharoah.
Condemning witchcraft and sorcery.

Completely made up? Not supported by the bible?

Are we talking the Christain bible? Because these are central themes of the Christian bible.

What bible are you talking about?

And for the guy who says demons aren't in the NT, what about Jesus casting out the demon in the insane man, or what about the famous Legion quote that everybody likes to use in movies, or how about the apostles casting out the spirit of divination (also a demon) from the slave woman? How about the false Christian (remember, people said there aren't false Christians?) attempting to do the same thing, and he wound up possessed and ran out of the house naked?

No, demons aren't in the NT, no sirree (/sarcasm).

 

[Nihilist Virus]

And for the guy who says demons aren't in the NT, what about Jesus casting out the demon in the insane man, or what about the famous Legion quote that everybody likes to use in movies, or how about the apostles casting out the spirit of divination (also a demon) from the slave woman? How about the false Christian (remember, people said there aren't false Christians?) attempting to do the same thing, and he wound up possessed and ran out of the house naked?

No, demons aren't in the NT, no sirree (/sarcasm).

I see you have set out to make one of us look like an idiot. Congratulations, you have succeeded. If you go look at post 74, you will see that I am clearly saying that the Old Testament is the one that does not mention demons.

 

[Xalith]

I see you have set out to make one of us look like an idiot. Congratulations, you have succeeded. If you go look at post 74, you will see that I am clearly saying that the Old Testament is the one that does not mention demons.

I wasn't trying to make anybody out to "look like an idiot", nor was the post directed at anybody in this thread. It was, however, directed at various atheists I've spoken to in the past who have said that demons weren't in the Bible, and some even said that demons weren't in the NT (yes, I HAVE run into people saying that).

 

[Nihilist Virus]

Satan and demons.
False gods, false idols.
The Egypt show down with Moses and the priests of Pharoah.
Condemning witchcraft and sorcery.

Completely made up? Not supported by the bible?

Are we talking the Christain bible? Because these are central themes of the Christian bible.

What bible are you talking about?

I already explained my position. You are the one making connections that simply are not there. If you want to show that there is a connection, then a citation is needed.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

I wasn't trying to make anybody out to "look like an idiot", nor was the post directed at anybody in this thread. It was, however, directed at various atheists I've spoken to in the past who have said that demons weren't in the Bible, and some even said that demons weren't in the NT (yes, I HAVE run into people saying that).

No, I think it's quite clear that you were talking to me. Because if you were not, then I don't even know why you brought that stuff up to begin with. How was it relevant to the conversation if you're not talking to me?

Regardless, even if there are atheists who have details of your book wrong, so what? Do they need to know about the Koran also?

 

[Xalith]

I already explained my position. You are the one making connections that simply are not there. If you want to show that there is a connection, then a citation is needed.

If you're looking for demons in the OT... a lot of people believe (and there is evidence for this) that the fallen angels mentioned in the OT are the demons in the NT.

Some believe in that, some don't.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

If you're looking for demons in the OT... a lot of people believe (and there is evidence for this) that the fallen angels mentioned in the OT are the demons in the NT.

Some believe in that, some don't.

Fallen angels in the Old Testament is the point in question and you just assert it and claim victory.

Citation required.

 

[Xalith]

Fallen angels in the Old Testament is the point in question and you just assert it and claim victory.

Citation required.

Citation for what exactly?

 

[Nihilist Virus]

Citation for what exactly?

That the Old Testament describes fallen angels. Lucifer from Isaiah is not Satan. Read the chapter that mentions Lucifer. And even if he is Satan, where is the mention of demons?

 

[AV1611VET]

That the Old Testament describes fallen angels. Lucifer from Isaiah is not Satan. Read the chapter that mentions Lucifer. And even if he is Satan, where is the mention of demons?

Demons are fallen angels.

There are two types of angels: fallen and unfallen.

Of the fallen there are two types: chained and unchained.

We believe the chained angels are the ones who were instrumental in bringing about the Flood.

 

[cloudyday2]

cloudyday2 says:
The problem is that science can never find God's tracks. I ask myself if there is some inherent aspect of God that makes it impossible for Him to leave tracks. I ask myself if God can actually do anything meaningful without leaving tracks.

Here is one remarkable track that God has left that science knows all about. Some scientists acknowledge that God is the creator of this track, some are not sure, some do not.

Well, here it is:
The neutron (n) weighs 1.00137841870 times greater than a proton (p).

This exact weight difference, allows the neutron to decay readily into protons, electrons, and neutrinos, a process that assures the relative abundances of hydrogen and helium and gave us a universe that is dominated by hydrogen.

If this weight ratio between neutron and proton were just slightly larger, we would be living in a universe with far too much helium, in which stars would burn out too quickly for life to come forth.

If this weight ratio was just slightly smaller, protons would decay into neutrons, leaving the universe without atoms.

The result of a smaller or larger ratio would mean NO LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE.

The only solution to this extraordinary ratio that some scientists can come up with is that it happened by chance. Well the chances of this ratio coming into existence and staying in extstence for billions of years is so astronomical, and so near 0 probability, that it is considered for all intents and purposes to be 0. It is extremely hard for science to get around this probability.

If you take chance out of the equation, science is clueless. They have no other options.

God believing people on the other hand have another option, which is far more probable than mere chance. We believe that a Superior Being has the knowledge and undertanding to construct atoms. This Superior Being can surely construct atoms with precise masses. The ratios between the masses of atoms can be constructed so accurately and perfect as to allow life to flourish in the universe.

Does this belief require a certain amount of faith in a Superior Being, yes.
But it requires far less faith than there needs to be to believe in an astronomical chance event happening that some scientists believe in.

This is a perfect, scientific track left by God, the Superior Being, to trace the creation to Him.

There are many many more interesteing scientific tracks that have been left by God, to come to a conclusion that God is Great and He is alive and well. We live on a wonderful earth and it's scientific facts scream out to us that there is a Superior Being that is responsible for it. Study it and you will be astounded at how perfect the entire system works. This earth and its systems can not come together by chance, but only by Superior knowledge and Superior abilities to build (create).

I don't pretend to be a philosopher or a physicist, but it seems to me that the flaw in this argument is to assume that what we have today is perfection. Why is a universe filled with life perfection? - the same reason children think their parents are the best. Is a universe that only lasts for a few milliseconds any less perfect than a universe like our own? We are assuming that God would want to create what we have around us. Why?

 

[cloudyday2]

That's some good evidence there.

However, if they don't like that, how about the "Simple Cell", which isn't so "simple"?

That thing that the Theory of Evolution revolves around which is just utterly silly.

The "Simple" Cell consists of thousands of working parts, and if you were to subtract just one of those parts, the thing would cease to function. All of these parts are inter-dependant upon one another otherwise the whole thing falls apart.

If this is the simplest organism that we've ever found... where did all the individual parts come from? Who or what assembled them in such a way that allows it to not only live, but also survive?

Did some goop somehow form together to make a complex machine-like entity that lives, functions, and reproduces on its own without any outside force?

Why do the parts of the "Simple Cell" that we can see resemble modern-day machinery? (ever looked up microscopic pics of a bacteria flagella? It looks like a modern day rotor engine, only at a tiny fraction of the size and it works exactly the same way!)

How about the DNA structure? It's a binary data storage system that can "unzip" itself, make a copy and "re-zip" itself and it is so complex that we are still studying it to this day, despite our ridiculously powerful computers. It is more complex and advanced than any data system we've managed to create in modern technology.

Data, and language, doesn't just appear out of nowhere; it has to be created by something intelligent. But yet, back when there was no man, where was the intelligence that created it? Even if you're some whacko that believes in alien intervention... who created the aliens, then? Surely they, too, had to come from somewhere?

Atheists (and the science they worship) have no explanation for any of these questions.
Christians, however, can easily explain it: God would have easily had the ability, knowledge, and wisdom to make these wonders.

My response to this is similar to my response to the ratios of elements that I gave in post #94.

 

[cloudyday2]

Here is a quote from "The Matrix Reloaded" that I have always found interesting. It seems to be a way of thinking about determinism and choices and so forth.

Are there choices being made to create the future state or is the past, present, and future already defined like a book that we must read and try to understand?

The Oracle: Do you see her die?
Neo: No.
The Oracle: You have the sight now, Neo. You are looking at the world without time.
Neo: Then why can't I see what happens to her?
The Oracle: We can never see past the choices we don't understand.
Neo: Are you saying I have to choose whether Trinity lives or dies?
The Oracle: No, you've already made the choice. Now you have to understand it.
Neo: No. I can't do that. I won't.
The Oracle: Well, you have to.
Neo: Why?
The Oracle: Because you're the One.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0234215/quotes

 

[cloudyday2]

@Xalith and @Peter1000 , isn't the world today supposed to be the "fallen world"? Was this "fallen world" God's goal in creation? Can we admire this "fallen world" and use it as the benchmark of perfection? The bacteria with the wonderful microscopic engineering also cause diseases.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

Thanks for cell info.

Again, the idea that chance is the provider of an ultra complex single cell, is being smothered by the chance mathmatics. The probability of a single cell just coming into existence from nothing is so astonomical as to push the probability so close to 0, that it is 0. There is no refuting this math.

I take nothing away from true science, it is a wonderful profession. It has just got hi-jacked by mostly atheistic persons that are using science to prove there is no God. For some very powerful scientists, that is their goal. Truth is not worth going for, but if they can somehow find proof that there is no God, then it will be their happy day. Too bad for mankind.
So godless scientists overlook the cell beginning and go from there. That's how they overcome it.

We, however, have another option, and that is a Superior Intelligence we call God, that has the knowledge and power to build even one single cell, let alone complex organisms to fill the earth with His wonder and glory.

What a major track. Extremely difficult to miss.

If I explained abiogenesis and cleared up your misunderstanding of it, and did the same for evolution, would the debate end there or would you merely retreat to a liberal interpretation of Genesis?

 

[Nihilist Virus]

That's some good evidence there.

However, if they don't like that, how about the "Simple Cell", which isn't so "simple"?

That thing that the Theory of Evolution revolves around which is just utterly silly.

The "Simple" Cell consists of thousands of working parts, and if you were to subtract just one of those parts, the thing would cease to function. All of these parts are inter-dependant upon one another otherwise the whole thing falls apart.

If this is the simplest organism that we've ever found... where did all the individual parts come from? Who or what assembled them in such a way that allows it to not only live, but also survive?

Did some goop somehow form together to make a complex machine-like entity that lives, functions, and reproduces on its own without any outside force?

Why do the parts of the "Simple Cell" that we can see resemble modern-day machinery? (ever looked up microscopic pics of a bacteria flagella? It looks like a modern day rotor engine, only at a tiny fraction of the size and it works exactly the same way!)

How about the DNA structure? It's a binary data storage system that can "unzip" itself, make a copy and "re-zip" itself and it is so complex that we are still studying it to this day, despite our ridiculously powerful computers. It is more complex and advanced than any data system we've managed to create in modern technology.

Data, and language, doesn't just appear out of nowhere; it has to be created by something intelligent. But yet, back when there was no man, where was the intelligence that created it? Even if you're some whacko that believes in alien intervention... who created the aliens, then? Surely they, too, had to come from somewhere?

Atheists (and the science they worship) have no explanation for any of these questions.
Christians, however, can easily explain it: God would have easily had the ability, knowledge, and wisdom to make these wonders.

Hmm well let's see. Irreducible complexity... wasn't Behe forced to renounce this under oath?

Also I was unaware that I worship science. Or perhaps you are unaware that it's possible to live without worshipping something.

You also seem to be unaware that even single celled organisms have been evolving for billions of years so to expect them to be simple shows you know nothing about the scientific claims you scoff at.

Lastly please fill us all in on how God solves this "problem." Let's assume he exists. You still have said nothing about abiogenesis other than "God did it" which does not explain the chemistry or mechanics of it. It in fact explains nothing.

 

[rockytopva]

Speaking of cells... You guys know that body has up in the trillions of them.