Why does God leave no tracks?

[cloudyday2]

I suspect I asked this question before in a different form, because I wonder about it a lot. Sometimes I like to imagine a benevolent God that I can talk to and so forth. I tell myself that maybe the Judeo Christian God is fiction, but my more generic chameleon-like God might actually exist.

The problem is that science can never find God's tracks. I ask myself if there is some inherent aspect of God that makes it impossible for Him to leave tracks. I ask myself if God can actually do anything meaningful without leaving tracks. Then there is the imaginary friend possibility. Imaginary friends serve a purpose and leave tracks in the real world even though they exist only in a human's imagination. I suppose the imaginary friend God that exists in human imaginations leaves tracks. Is it possible that God is real, but He restricts Himself to our imaginations? In other words, there is a real God that inspires humans to create imaginary friend Gods in their minds that then interact with the world? Could science tell if there was a real God behind these imaginary friend Gods?

 

[ewq1938]

In other words, there is a real God that inspires humans to create imaginary friend Gods in their minds that then interact with the world?

No, God is clear in scripture that there is only one real God and other gods are false gods. God certainly isn't going to be causing new false gods to be created in people's imaginations.

 

[cloudyday2]

No, God is clear in scripture that there is only one real God and other gods are false gods. God certainly isn't going to be causing new false gods to be created in people's imaginations.

If you read between the lines a little bit in the Bible, doesn't it seem that one version of God that exists in the Old Testament is a nameless, invisible, incomprehensible God? Maybe this God can only be comprehended subjectively as an imaginary God - kind of like an idol. The idols are inevitable, but we are supposed to strive to eliminate the idols. One of these idols is Bible God?

 

[cloudyday2]

Another thought I had is the idea that Jesus could exist only as a fictional character in the Christian narrative, but Jesus is nevertheless alive? I imagine the historical Jesus was not a particularly desirable person - sort of a doomsday prophet. The Jesus of fiction on the other hand is very inspiring and more alive than many non-fictional people (based on the effect this imaginary Jesus can have on real lives).

What does it mean to be real anyway? I exist in the imagination of each person who interacts with me. Each imaginary version of me is slightly different, but those are the versions of me that have direct contact with people. The "real" me exists in nobody's imagination and has no direct effect on anything.

 

[ewq1938]

If you read between the lines a little bit in the Bible, doesn't it seem that one version of God that exists in the Old Testament is a nameless, invisible, incomprehensible God?

lol...God gives his name and is seen by many people so God isn't nameless or invisible. Incomprehensible? In full sure, in part not for those He has revealed himself to.

 

[ewq1938]

Another thought I had is the idea that Jesus could exist only as a fictional character in the Christian narrative, but Jesus is nevertheless alive? I imagine the historical Jesus was not a particularly desirable person - sort of a doomsday prophet.

Jesus is not fictional and he preached a message of hope especially for the eternity AND a message of a future tribulations for this earthly life.

The Jesus of fiction on the other hand is very inspiring and more alive than many non-fictional people (based on the effect this imaginary Jesus can have on real lives).

Well there is only one Jesus, one that was real and his life and death inspired the beginning of the Christian religion. Some 2000 years later it is alive and well.

What does it mean to be real anyway? I exist in the imagination of each person who interacts with me. Each imaginary version of me is slightly different, but those are the versions of me that have direct contact with people. The "real" me exists in nobody's imagination and has no direct effect on anything.

this is getting too far away from the bible and Christianity so I'm not interested in going into these speculative things

 

[cloudyday2]

this is getting too far away from the bible and Christianity so I'm not interested in going into these speculative things

No problem. I'm just thinking out loud mostly

 

[JonFromMinnesota]

Well there is only one Jesus, one that was real and his life and death inspired the beginning of the Christian religion. Some 2000 years later it is alive and well.

It wouldn't surprise me if the stories attributed to Jesus are based on a real person. However there are no independent and contemporary accounts of the alleged miracles in the bible. If he is the most important person in the history of the world, why didn't he write anything down himself? And more importantly why didn't anybody else write anything down during the events? The gospels aren't written until decades later and are based on oral accounts. Oral accounts change drastically over many years.

 

[ewq1938]

It wouldn't surprise me if the stories attributed to Jesus are based on a real person. However there are no independent and contemporary accounts of the alleged miracles in the bible.

The gospels are the contemporary accounts of the miracles.

If he is the most important person in the history of the world, why didn't he write anything down himself?

He had others to do it? Who cares who wrote about him...

And more importantly why didn't anybody else write anything down during the events?

How do you know no one else wrote anything down? Do you have any idea how hard it is for a document like that to survive 2000 years?

The gospels aren't written until decades later and are based on oral accounts.

That is speculation. No one knows when they were written.

 

[AV1611VET]

The problem is that science can never find God's tracks.

Why is that a problem?

Do you think God was kidding when He said ...

Colossians 1:15a Who is the image of the invisible God,

If scientists can't find angels with their instruments, how are they going to find God?

Hebrews 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

 

[ewq1938]

Why is that a problem?

You answered your own question.

 

[cloudyday2]

Why is that a problem?

Do you think God was kidding when He said ...

Colossians 1:15a Who is the image of the invisible God,

If scientists can't find angels with their instruments, how are they going to find God?

Hebrews 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

The problem is that believers claim that God does all kinds of things all the time. How does God do these things without ever leaving a track? Or maybe God does leave some tracks? Can something actually happen without leaving a track?

If Zorro came to save the day, he would leave a "Z". The Lone Ranger might leave some hoof prints and silver bullets.

 

[cloudyday2]

If God was a toothpaste, then we could have an experiment to show that Christians have whiter teeth. No matter what elusive mechanism God might use, He must leave a track if He is going to deliver something measurable and useful to humans (such as whiter teeth).

The intercessory prayer experiments seem to show nothing. Maybe they weren't set up correctly, or maybe God wants to hide from science for some reason.

 

[AV1611VET]

If Zorro came to save the day, he would leave a "Z". The Lone Ranger might leave some hoof prints and silver bullets.

Do you consider these "tracks":

• 30 October 1991: The Halloween Monster, a.k.a. The Perfect Storm, strikes the U.S. amid the "land-for-peace" Madrid peace talks; President Bush's ocean-side home destroyed.
• 23 August 1992: President Bush moves Madrid talks to U.S. soil; that very day, Hurricane Andrew devastates southern Florida.
• 16 January 1994: President Clinton meets with Syrian President Hafez Assad to discuss more "land for peace" arrangements; less than 24 hours later, a 6.9 earthquake pulverized southern California.
• 1 September 1993: President Clinton announces a meeting with Arafat for the Oslo peace accords, to be held on 13 September; after a week of meandering in the Atlantic Ocean, Hurricane Emily hits North Carolina on that very day.
• 21 January 1998: while waiting to meet with Arafat at the White House, President Clinton's sex scandal breaks out.
• 27 September 1998: Arafat is meeting with the president in Washington; Hurricane Georges hits Alabama and stalls. The hurricane stalls until Arafat leaves and then it dissipates. Parts of Alabama declared a disaster area.
• 17 October 1998: Arafat comes to the Wye Plantation meeting; incredible rains fall on Texas, which cause record flooding. Parts of Texas declared a disaster area.
• 3 September 1999: Secretary of State Albright meets with Arafat in Israel; Hurricane Dennis comes ashore on this very day after weeks of changing course in the Atlantic Ocean.
• 12-26 July 2000: Arafat at the Camp David meetings. Powerful droughts throughout the country. Forest fires explode in West into uncontrollable fires. By the end of August, 7 million acres are burnt.
• 9 November 2000, two days after the presidential election: Arafat meets with President Clinton at the White House to try and salvage the peace process; worst election crisis in over 100 years occurs.
  

What do creationists think about tornado's and the damages they cause?

 

[cloudyday2]

Do you consider these "tracks":

• 30 October 1991: The Halloween Monster, a.k.a. The Perfect Storm, strikes the U.S. amid the "land-for-peace" Madrid peace talks; President Bush's ocean-side home destroyed.
• 23 August 1992: President Bush moves Madrid talks to U.S. soil; that very day, Hurricane Andrew devastates southern Florida.
• 16 January 1994: President Clinton meets with Syrian President Hafez Assad to discuss more "land for peace" arrangements; less than 24 hours later, a 6.9 earthquake pulverized southern California.
• 1 September 1993: President Clinton announces a meeting with Arafat for the Oslo peace accords, to be held on 13 September; after a week of meandering in the Atlantic Ocean, Hurricane Emily hits North Carolina on that very day.
• 21 January 1998: while waiting to meet with Arafat at the White House, President Clinton's sex scandal breaks out.
• 27 September 1998: Arafat is meeting with the president in Washington; Hurricane Georges hits Alabama and stalls. The hurricane stalls until Arafat leaves and then it dissipates. Parts of Alabama declared a disaster area.
• 17 October 1998: Arafat comes to the Wye Plantation meeting; incredible rains fall on Texas, which cause record flooding. Parts of Texas declared a disaster area.
• 3 September 1999: Secretary of State Albright meets with Arafat in Israel; Hurricane Dennis comes ashore on this very day after weeks of changing course in the Atlantic Ocean.
• 12-26 July 2000: Arafat at the Camp David meetings. Powerful droughts throughout the country. Forest fires explode in West into uncontrollable fires. By the end of August, 7 million acres are burnt.
• 9 November 2000, two days after the presidential election: Arafat meets with President Clinton at the White House to try and salvage the peace process; worst election crisis in over 100 years occurs.

What do creationists think about tornado's and the damages they cause?

Chaotic things like hurricanes might be a possible tool for God to effect humans without bending the laws of nature - assuming the path of a hurricane is truly non-deterministic (as opposed to being merely difficult to predict with today's technology).

Let's say God is changing the paths of hurricanes to smite US politicians that pressure Israel to make concessions to its enemies. If God is using these hurricanes as a form of correction, then He needs to make it clear to the US politicians. God cannot expect the US politicians to change their behavior if He isn't clear about what He is doing and why (e.g. "I am sending this hurricane to cause 1 billion dollars in property damage and kill 35 people in Alabama, because you met with Arafat today. If you had behaved yourself, then I would have used the hurricane to smite Mexico instead."). In the Old Testament, God sent Moses to clearly explain things to Pharoah. God didn't simply slam Pharoah with a hurricane unexpectedly so that Pharoah had to wonder if it was a coincidence or a message from God.

 

[cloudyday2]

Are there promises in the Bible that can be tested experimentally? For example, while there may not be a wholesale guaranty that God will answer every prayer, isn't it reasonable to expect that God will answer a few prayers more than can be explained by chance?

How about the fruits of the spirit? Shouldn't there be a measurable difference between the character of spirit-filled Christians and others? If we found that there is no measurable difference in the life-changing effects of charismatic Christianity and Wicca, then wouldn't that give reason to question the unique claims of Christianity?

 

[cloudyday2]

Even though my examples might be silly, my motivation is to understand if believing in a God of some kind is reasonable. Having been raised as a Christian, it is hard for me to untangle God from my thoughts. I can't quite disbelieve in God as completely as most atheists, but I don't know what sort of God can actually exist.

 

[Winken]

We are the tracks.

 

[AV1611VET]

If God is using these hurricanes as a form of correction, then He needs to make it clear to the US politicians.

Until He does then, can you answer your own question now:

Could science tell if there was a real God behind these imaginary friend Gods?

 

[AV1611VET]

Are there promises in the Bible that can be tested experimentally? For example, while there may not be a wholesale guaranty that God will answer every prayer, isn't it reasonable to expect that God will answer a few prayers more than can be explained by chance?

How about the fruits of the spirit? Shouldn't there be a measurable difference between the character of spirit-filled Christians and others? If we found that there is no measurable difference in the life-changing effects of charismatic Christianity and Wicca, then wouldn't that give reason to question the unique claims of Christianity?

Cloudy, are you so naive that you can't see that if God came back here and repeated His first-advent miracles and healed the sick, raised the dead, and walked on water, that He would be crucified by the academic elite (known as the "highminded" in the Bible) all over again?

If you disagree, then maybe you need to stick around here a little more and listen to those who say:

"If God is real, and I meet Him, He's going to have a lot of explaining to do."

When Jesus does come back and rules and reigns on the earth for 1000 years, read what's going to happen when those thousand years are up.

He's going to be attacked by every nation on the face of the earth.

You're either seriously misguided, or you're trying to act like some big shot with that God-can-show-us attitude.