Why does God leave no tracks?

[cloudyday2]

...
Does that clear it up?

Maybe. I don't want you to waste your time and effort explaining things to me that I don't really care about very much. If those beliefs help you and others, then that is good enough. I have different beliefs now that help me.

(Hopefully your posts are helpful to other people, so they are not going to waste.)

 

[Xalith]

Xalith, none of my business, but are you a Jehovah's Witness?

... uh, no? *blinks* I don't know why you'd ask me That.

 

[AV1611VET]

... uh, no? *blinks* I don't know why you'd ask me That.

Just wondering.

I hope you weren't offended.

 

[Xalith]

Just wondering.

I hope you weren't offended.

No, no, not offended... just... confused as to the sudden, specific question.

 

[AV1611VET]

No, no, not offended... just... confused as to the sudden, specific question.

It's the way you worded your post ...

You have to turn your back on Holy Spirit and tell someone else that the same works were done by Satan.

Most people don't address the Holy Spirit that way: leaving the article "the" off.

That is, most don't address "Holy Spirit" as if that's His name.

Which, of course, it is.

Isaiah 57:15a For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy;

The one exception I've routinely encountered are ... if my memory serves me correctly ... the Jehovah's Witnesses.

 

[Xalith]

It's the way you worded your post ...Most people don't address the Holy Spirit that way: leaving the article "the" off.

That is, most don't address "Holy Spirit" as if that's His name.

Which, of course, it is.

Isaiah 57:15a For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy;

The one exception I've routinely encountered are ... if my memory serves me correctly ... the Jehovah's Witnesses.

Well, Holy Spirit is one of the Trinity, and many people think of Him as... I don't know... I've heard to Him being referred to as "it" before, and when I hear/see that I just cringe a little.

The Godhead is 3 divine persons in one collective Being we call "God". Holy Spirit is not an "it" anymore than the Father and the Son are.

Of course these are just my beliefs, but I think it is... I don't know... demeaning to refer to Holy Spirit as "the" Holy Spirit as if Holy Spirit were some kind of... object, or something. And yes, I know sometimes we say "The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit", but when you pray, do you say "The Jesus" or "The Christ"? I don't know of anybody who does, right? When you pray to our Father, do you say "The Father, I'd like to ask...." ... of course not.

But I can understand if my way of looking at it is... uncommon.

 

[AV1611VET]

But I can understand if my way of looking at it is... uncommon.

I like your way of thinking.

 

[Xalith]

I like your way of thinking.

That's good to hear!

 

[Nihilist Virus]

No, God is clear in scripture that there is only one real God and other gods are false gods. God certainly isn't going to be causing new false gods to be created in people's imaginations.

Is that really clear? When the pharaoh's sorcerers did their serpent-staff showdown with Moses, the text seems to indicate that Egyptian gods are real but simply not as powerful as YHWH.

 

[Xalith]

Is that really clear? When the pharaoh's sorcerers did their serpent-staff showdown with Moses, the text seems to indicate that Egyptian gods are real but simply not as powerful as YHWH.

That's easy to explain: Demons have power too. What most people don't realize, is that these false gods are inspired by Satan and his demons to lead people astray away from the real God, because Satan's aim is to make sure as many people end up in Hell as possible. Satan's goals are, quite simply, to destroy everything God built, if he were actually capable of such a thing (he isn't). The magician in Egypt who threw his staff down that became the serpent was one of these people who worshipped these false idols and was given power by the demon(s) that inspired these false idols.

However, Aaron's staff snake devoured the Magician's, because quite simply... demons have supernatural power... but they can never override the power of the Creator, the Maker of All Things, God Himself.

This is a good demonstration as to why God condemns witchcraft, sorcery, etc. These are real things, but they are all demonic. Anybody who practices witchcraft or sorcery (or tries to), whether they know it or not, is consorting with demons and possibly Satan himself.

 

[Xalith]

Also, back on topic...

There was a guy who actually did find evidence of the Exodus... but because he happens to be a Christian, the atheist "Scientific Community" has slandered his name so hard that nobody believes him, despite the video, pictures, etc that he brought back.

In fact, other people have validated this person's claims that the Saudi government fenced off the area where Mt. Sinai is believed to be after this person snuck in there, took some photos and evidence, and got caught trying to get back out of there. He was able to get some of his evidence out, but a lot of it not.

There are photos to this day of the fenced-off area.

So, if this guy is a "fake" and a "phony", and if there really was nothing there, then why did the Saudi government make the Mt. Sinai region a massive no-man's land and string up barbed wire fences with guard outposts?

 

[Nihilist Virus]

That's easy to explain: Demons have power too. What most people don't realize, is that these false gods are inspired by Satan and his demons to lead people astray away from the real God, because Satan's aim is to make sure as many people end up in Hell as possible. Satan's goals are, quite simply, to destroy everything God built, if he were actually capable of such a thing (he isn't). The magician in Egypt who threw his staff down that became the serpent was one of these people who worshipped these false idols and was given power by the demon(s) that inspired these false idols.

However, Aaron's staff snake devoured the Magician's, because quite simply... demons have supernatural power... but they can never override the power of the Creator, the Maker of All Things, God Himself.

This is a good demonstration as to why God condemns witchcraft, sorcery, etc. These are real things, but they are all demonic. Anybody who practices witchcraft or sorcery (or tries to), whether they know it or not, is consorting with demons and possibly Satan himself.

What you are saying is not only completely made up, but it's not even supported in the Bible.

 

[Xalith]

What you are saying is not only completely made up, but it's not even supported in the Bible.

It isn't?

False gods are lies.

Who does the Bible say is the inventor and father of all lies?

2+2 = ...

Now if you're talking about the demon doing supernatural junk, look up the story of the woman who had the spirit of divination in Acts. That was a demon spirit giving supernatural power to a slave woman.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

It isn't?

False gods are lies.

Firstly, a citation is needed.

Secondly, even if said citation exists, you are committing the equivocation fallacy.

See, a lie is a statement of fact that is deliberately false, usually for some kind of personal gain. The Bible depicts false gods as actual gods that are less powerful than YHWH. If your contention is that these other gods were demons, then why is there literally zero mention of demons until the New Testament? Only Satan is mentioned in the Old Testament. It was never made clear anywhere in the Old Testament that Satan desired to be worshiped or that he was propping up false gods. Read it for yourself. The Bible migrates from polytheism in the early Old Testament books, to monotheism in the latter books, to monotheism with demons and a hell in the New Testament.

Also I would very much like to know how exactly we can distinguish your God from the false gods. None of them have ever done anything or even appeared. All of them have "spoken" or "appeared" to select few individuals who then relay the information to the rest of us.

Who does the Bible say is the inventor and father of all lies?

2+2 = ...

What you are adding is two apples and two oranges, so your argument is a fruit basket.

Now if you're talking about the demon doing supernatural junk, look up the story of the woman who had the spirit of divination in Acts. That was a demon spirit giving supernatural power to a slave woman.

Yes, in the New Testament there was the invention of demons. In the Old Testament, it was simply rival gods.

 

[ewq1938]

Is that really clear? When the pharaoh's sorcerers did their serpent-staff showdown with Moses, the text seems to indicate that Egyptian gods are real but simply not as powerful as YHWH.

No, they weren't real and if you knew much about the bible you would know God is clear that false gods are just that, false.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

No, they weren't real and if you knew much about the bible you would know God is clear that false gods are just that, false.

If you knew much about the Bible you would provide sources to back your argument.

 

[ChetSinger]

...The problem is that science can never find God's tracks...

It's not the task of scientific investigation to find God, but to explain what we see using natural processes alone. If natural processes can't be found to explain something, the conclusion isn't that God is responsible but that we just don't understand enough about natural processes. That's just how scientific investigation works.

Some people do turn to God because scientific investigation comes up short. One famous example is atheist Antony Flew, who turned to deism because of the inability of scientific investigation to explain the origin of living things.

 

[cloudyday2]

It's not the task of scientific investigation to find God, but to explain what we see using natural processes alone. If natural processes can't be found to explain something, the conclusion isn't that God is responsible but that we just don't understand enough about natural processes. That's just how scientific investigation works.

Some people do turn to God because scientific investigation comes up short. One famous example is atheist Antony Flew, who turned to deism because of the inability of scientific investigation to explain the origin of living things.

Imagine being an infant and trying to understand the sensations. Eventually humans imagine personalities with motivations, tastes, habits, etc. God is a personality without a body. If somebody is miraculously healed, then we give credit to the imagined God personality. We begin to think that personality must be real.

Metaphysical naturalism (quietly assumed by science) tells us that none of our personalities actually exist.

What I'm trying to say is that I don't see anything special about the abstraction of God versus other abstractions. The abstraction must be useful. An infant cries and the mother abstraction feeds the infant. The same sorts of things would indicate the value of a God abstraction. We should be able to know the personality of God and find His tracks - just like we know the personality of deer and find their tracks.

 

[Xalith]

We should be able to know the personality of God and find His tracks - just like we know the personality of deer and find their tracks.

You can't really compare God to deer, because God is a spirit, and a deer is a physical animal we can see, hear and touch.

That said, however, we, or at least those of us who believe in/have known Him know His personality, and know it quite well. He is majestic, powerful, mighty, awe-inspiring... but yet incredibly merciful, loving, tender at the same time.

He is everything that we tend not to be; He accomplishes effortlessly what we have to strive to do. (Being charitable, loving, respectful, humble, etc)

The things we instinctually want/feel are things He despises (pride, selfishness, lust, wrath etc).

Now, on the wrath bit... God does indeed feel wrath, and does get angry. However, His anger is balanced by mercy and grace, as well as His knowledge of all things. When God gets angry at someone, we know that this anger is just and righteous, and the outcome of it will be so. This isn't true of our anger -- a lot of times we don't display enough mercy as we should, we don't know all of the details behind the situation that made us angry (how many times have you gotten mad at someone, and later found out a tidbit you didn't know and wound up regretting it later?), and how often have we gotten angry at people, and wound up doing something we know we shouldn't have done?

 

[Peter1000]

I suspect I asked this question before in a different form, because I wonder about it a lot. Sometimes I like to imagine a benevolent God that I can talk to and so forth. I tell myself that maybe the Judeo Christian God is fiction, but my more generic chameleon-like God might actually exist.

The problem is that science can never find God's tracks. I ask myself if there is some inherent aspect of God that makes it impossible for Him to leave tracks. I ask myself if God can actually do anything meaningful without leaving tracks. Then there is the imaginary friend possibility. Imaginary friends serve a purpose and leave tracks in the real world even though they exist only in a human's imagination. I suppose the imaginary friend God that exists in human imaginations leaves tracks. Is it possible that God is real, but He restricts Himself to our imaginations? In other words, there is a real God that inspires humans to create imaginary friend Gods in their minds that then interact with the world? Could science tell if there was a real God behind these imaginary friend Gods?

cloudyday2 says:
The problem is that science can never find God's tracks. I ask myself if there is some inherent aspect of God that makes it impossible for Him to leave tracks. I ask myself if God can actually do anything meaningful without leaving tracks.

Here is one remarkable track that God has left that science knows all about. Some scientists acknowledge that God is the creator of this track, some are not sure, some do not.

Well, here it is:
The neutron (n) weighs 1.00137841870 times greater than a proton (p).

This exact weight difference, allows the neutron to decay readily into protons, electrons, and neutrinos, a process that assures the relative abundances of hydrogen and helium and gave us a universe that is dominated by hydrogen.

If this weight ratio between neutron and proton were just slightly larger, we would be living in a universe with far too much helium, in which stars would burn out too quickly for life to come forth.

If this weight ratio was just slightly smaller, protons would decay into neutrons, leaving the universe without atoms.

The result of a smaller or larger ratio would mean NO LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE.

The only solution to this extraordinary ratio that some scientists can come up with is that it happened by chance. Well the chances of this ratio coming into existence and staying in extstence for billions of years is so astronomical, and so near 0 probability, that it is considered for all intents and purposes to be 0. It is extremely hard for science to get around this probability.

If you take chance out of the equation, science is clueless. They have no other options.

God believing people on the other hand have another option, which is far more probable than mere chance. We believe that a Superior Being has the knowledge and undertanding to construct atoms. This Superior Being can surely construct atoms with precise masses. The ratios between the masses of atoms can be constructed so accurately and perfect as to allow life to flourish in the universe.

Does this belief require a certain amount of faith in a Superior Being, yes.
But it requires far less faith than there needs to be to believe in an astronomical chance event happening that some scientists believe in.

This is a perfect, scientific track left by God, the Superior Being, to trace the creation to Him.

There are many many more interesteing scientific tracks that have been left by God, to come to a conclusion that God is Great and He is alive and well. We live on a wonderful earth and it's scientific facts scream out to us that there is a Superior Being that is responsible for it. Study it and you will be astounded at how perfect the entire system works. This earth and its systems can not come together by chance, but only by Superior knowledge and Superior abilities to build (create).