Why does God choose to remain invisible and undetectable?

[WoundedDeep]

You have nothing, other than a faith belief you are correct, which doesnt appear to be good enough for you.

When you have a scientific definition of design, let us know. When you have a falsifiable test to determine if design is present, let us know.

Clearly you throw logic out of the window. Science is meaningless in a universe that operates by chance. End of conclusion.

I wasn't even talking about faith, I was talking about how science is useful only when the universe is predictable through design. People in denial will remain unbelieving, even when nothing they ask or say makes logical sense anymore.

 

[bhsmte]

Clearly you throw logic out of the window. Science is meaningless in a universe that operates by chance. End of conclusion.

If logic was employed, you would have a scientic definition of design and a falsifiable test to confirm its presence.

 

[variant]

Clearly you throw logic out of the window. Science is meaningless in a universe that operates by chance. End of conclusion.

Accuses someone else of throwing logic out the window.

Follows accusation with non-sequitur.

Clear irony.

 

[WoundedDeep]

Accuses someone else of throwing logic out the window.

Follows accusation with non-sequitur.

Clear irony.

That is not an accusation, that is a statement of fact.

 

[bhsmte]

That is not an accusation, that is a statement of fact.

Let us know when you have some verifiable facts regarding how to determine whether design is present or not.

 

[variant]

That is not an accusation, that is a statement of fact.

So you've demonstrated some sort of lordship over the label of "factual"?

Your ability for clarity deciphering truth don't seem to be that advanced to me.

 

[WoundedDeep]

So you've demonstrated some sort of lordship over the label of "factual"?

Please refrain from putting words into my mouth, thanks.

 

[variant]

For something not to be designed, ie. it occurs by chance, it will mean there are no observable patterns to how it works. For instance, gravity will cease to be observed as a pattern in the formation of stars and the orbiting of planets.

There is no evidence for the illusion of design because design is never an illusion. Physics and other realms of science would be totally meaningless and unreliable in explaining our world if the universe operates on chance rather than design.

You simply seem to be asserting that all coherent patterns are by design.

We call this begging the question.

We do not know that coherent patterns are designed at all, that is the issue being debated.

 

[variant]

Please refrain from putting words into my mouth, thanks.

That was a question. It came from my "mouth".

Simply asserting your views as facts is not going to work in a debate with people who disagree with you.

 

[bhsmte]

Please refrain from putting words into my mouth, thanks.

You're posts are self explanatory for all to see. They contain no objective evidence to support you're claim, yet at the same time, you state other throw logic out the window when they point out the obvious.

Some people's logic is driven by their personal faith belief and others is driven by objective evidence. It is quite clear, which one you fall under.

 

[WoundedDeep]

You simply seem to be asserting that all coherent patterns are by design.

We call this begging the question.

We do not know that coherent patterns are designed at all, that is the issue being debated.

I already gave you criterion to which you have failed to debunk. I'm afraid no amount of debate will convince a person of denial.

I think it's time to stop since it is profitless.

 

[WoundedDeep]

Let us know when you have some verifiable facts regarding how to determine whether design is present or not.

Predictability of the universe is the fact that I gave, you simply did not acknowledge it.

I know I cannot convince a person of denial, therefore I will stop the profitless debate.

 

[essentialsaltes]

For something not to be designed, ie. it occurs by chance, it will mean there are no observable patterns to how it works.

I think someone already did this, but it's worth repeating.

 

[WoundedDeep]

I think someone already did this, but it's worth repeating.

So have I repeated that the processes by which snow occur must have an origin. I don't know how many times more must I repeat this concept of "origin".

 

[talquin]

Because of the actual changes Jesus brought to my life and the changes I saw in my parents? To deny the realities of my own experiences is no different from denying the reality of my existence.

While you obviously can't deny your own experiences, how do you know those experiences are due to Jesus?

Like I said, it is common sense and not special pleading. God is independent from His creation and thus the laws that He use to create does not apply to Him. God is above all forms of laws so why will He need a Creator?

Who created the laws by which God is governed?

1) Jesus will come from the line of Abraham. Prophecy: Genesis 12:3. Fulfilled: Matthew 1:1.
2) Jesus’ mother will be a virgin. Prophecy: Isaiah 7:14. Fulfilled: Matthew 1:18–23.
3) Jesus will be a descendent of Isaac and Jacob. Prophecy: Genesis 17:19 and Numbers 24:17. Fulfilled: Matthew 1:2.
4) Jesus will be born in the town Bethlehem. Prophecy: Micah 5:2. Fulfilled: Luke 2:1–7.
5) Jesus will be called out of Egypt. Prophecy: Hosea 11:1. Fulfilled: Matthew 2:13–15.
6) Jesus will be a member of the tribe of Judah. Prophecy: Genesis 49:10. Fulfilled: Luke 3:33.
7) Jesus will enter the temple. This is important because the temple was destroyed in A.D. 70 and was never rebuilt. Prophecy: Malachi 3:1. Fulfilled: Luke 2:25–27.
8) Jesus will be from the lineage of King David. Prophecy: Jeremiah 23:5. Fulfilled: Matthew 1:6.
9) Jesus’ birth will be accompanied with great suffering and sorrow. Prophecy: Jeremiah 31:15. Fulfilled: Matthew 2:16.
10) Jesus will live a perfect life, die by crucifixion, resurrect from death, ascend into heaven, and sit at the right hand of God. Prophecies: Psalm 22:16; Psalm 16:10; Isaiah 53:10–11; Psalm 68:18; Psalm 110:1. Fulfilled: 1 Peter 2:21–22; Luke 23:33; Acts 2:25–32; Acts 1:9; Hebrews 1:3.

When a prophecy is told and fulfilled within the same book, it diminishes the validity of the prophecy enormously. Once again, what do you suppose is more likely - that these prophecies really were told and were later fulfilled or that the prophecies didn't occur and were made up?

All prophecies about Jesus was written in the OT centuries before His birth, what you speculate is entirely impossible.

How do you know that these prophecies were written centuries before the birth of Jesus?

 

[variant]

I already gave you criterion to which you have failed to debunk. I'm afraid no amount of debate will convince a person of denial.

I think it's time to stop since it is profitless.

You mean where you required that I somehow remove the possibility of an invisible and undetectable designer from the universe?

Do you remember what I said about insisting that others disprove your unfalcefiable assumptions and how that would be intellectually dishonest.

 

[Smidlee]

When a prophecy is told and fulfilled within the same book, it diminishes the validity of the prophecy enormously. Once again, what do you suppose is more likely - that these prophecies really were told and were later fulfilled or that the prophecies didn't occur and were made up?

There are not from the same book or more accurately from the same scroll.

How do you know that these prophecies were written centuries before the birth of Jesus?

Dead Sea Scrolls nailed that one.

 

[WoundedDeep]

While you obviously can't deny your own experiences, how do you know those experiences are due to Jesus?

Because it happened only after I believed in Him and prayed to Him about those life changing events?

Who created the laws by which God is governed

God is not governed like we are, He is of a different nature from the material universe. To say that God must be governed will bring about an endless spiral of "who governs A that governs B that governs..." That makes no sense either.

When a prophecy is told and fulfilled within the same book, it diminishes the validity of the prophecy enormously. Once again, what do you suppose is more likely - that these prophecies really were told and were later fulfilled or that the prophecies didn't occur and were made up?

Validity of any prophecy is determined by the time of the prophecy and the details of the prophecy. A valid prophecy must necessarily occur before the prophesied event and the prophesied event must match details of the prophecy. This is what is observed by Bible scholars and historians and that is why the prophecies in the Bible are held to high credibility.

How do you know that these prophecies were written centuries before the birth of Jesus?

Because the timing of the written records of the prophecies about Jesus are all hundreds of years B.C (before Jesus was born)?

 

[bhsmte]

Predictability of the universe is the fact that I gave, you simply did not acknowledge it.

I know I cannot convince a person of denial, therefore I will stop the profitless debate.

Projection.

 

[talquin]

I don't have any proof. The burden of proof is upon you, as you're the one who is positing that a resurrection occurred. If it can be proven that it did occur, there is no burden of proof upon me to show it was a made up story.

I mentioned the empty tomb of Jesus at least three times already, that is the proof of resurrection. Read up about it from as many sources as you want, and decide for yourself. I know you will not accept sources I give so I advise that you look for them yourselves. I am already tired of getting into needless arguments about evidences.

By that logic, I could mention three times that you are actually a rhinoceros and that would be proof that you are a rhinoceros.

As it can't be proven to have occurred, the most likely explanation is that it is a made up story. Imagine if I told you I have an apple and that this apple has supernatural powers in which things move. I send you a video showing things which are moving along with a photo of the apple. What is the more likely explanation - that the apple has supernatural powers or that humans caused the objects to move?

You gave a scenario that exactly proves my points. If an apple requires an agent to make it move, then does not the universe require an agent to make it work, whether the agent is visible or not?

If you let go of an apple, it falls to the ground. What agent is making it move. I think we call that gravity. If every working thing requires an agent to work, then any agent used to make a working thing work would be working itself and would require yet another agent. What is the agent which makes your god work?

Quoting scripture or reciting ancient historical accounts isn't going to meet your burden of proof. You'll need to show through Occam's Razor how it is more likely that the resurrection stories are the result of a true resurrection occurrence than that they were made up by humans.

Tell me how that is a reasonable demand. I gave you the empty tomb as evidence, now please read up on it yourself.

As I said, there are no authenticated verifiable accounts of an empty tomb, while there are millions of verifiable accounts of humans making up stories. That's why it is a reasonable demand.

Killed by whom? The terrorists who flew planes into buildings on 9/11. Do you not think those people were deluded?

Do you not see the difference between Christian martyrdom and terrorism? Christians martyrdom is about being victims, but terrorism is about murder.

You mentioned Christians being killed and asked why people would kill Christians without being deluded.

By that line of reasoning, if I claimed to be God, then I would be God.

Once again, what is more likely - that the miracles really occurred or that these stories of miracles are made up? We have millions of accounts of verifiable occurrences of people making up stories, while we have zero accounts of verifiable occurrences of people performing miracles.

No, claims are always backed up by deeds. Jesus backed up His claims with miracles. I know you are going to start questioning whether the miracles are real, but think for just a second. If the miracles never existed, why did Christianity last for so long?

One of the prominent reasons it's lasted so long because Christians are taught to indoctrinate their children at very young ages. Whether or not the miracles occurred is irrelevant to how and/or why Christianity has lasted so long. Since the miracles can't be verified to have occurred, it is transparent to the livelihood of Christianity as to whether or not the miracles really did occur. In other words, it's not the truth which has allowed Christianity to survive, but the perception of the truth. And perception isn't always the same as reality.