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Why does God choose to remain invisible and undetectable?

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WoundedDeep

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By that logic, I could mention three times that you are actually a rhinoceros and that would be proof that you are a rhinoceros.

:doh: I asked you to read up about it already. Let's not continue with analogies that make no sense.

As I said, there are no authenticated verifiable accounts of an empty tomb, while there are millions of verifiable accounts of humans making up stories.

Have you read anything about the empty tomb yet to say there are no verifiable accounts?

You mentioned Christians being killed and asked why people would kill Christians without being deluded.

You have just rephrased my original statement beyond any recognition.

One of the prominent reasons it's lasted so long because Christians are taught to indoctrinate their children at very young ages.

Jesus' first disciples are certainly not "children" and neither are all Christians indoctrinated children. In fact, all Christians who hold onto their faith for entire lives have life changing experiences like I did as an atheist. Your statement is entirely a blank generalization.
 
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Davian

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I just did in my post to Smidlee. Science aims at predicting and explaining the world around us by defining the patterns or the processes that govern the universe. If the universe operates on chances and not by design, predictability will cease to exist and science becomes a wholly redundant and meaningless exploit.

Do you have access to other universes in which you can test that hypothesis?
 
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WoundedDeep

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Do you have access to other universes in which you can test that hypothesis?

You know that what you ask is wholly redundant because no other universes are proven to exist.

So you seem to believe in the possibility of another universe that is different from our universe. Yet you don't believe in the possibility of a Creator different from our universe. That's what I called biased unbelief.
 
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Davian

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You know that what you ask is wholly redundant because no other universes are proven to exist.
No, what I ask is rhetorical, because to other universes have not been demonstrated to exist. Without that access, all you have are unevidenced assertions about "design".
So you seem to believe in the possibility of another universe that is different from our universe.
No, do not put words in my mouth.
Yet you don't believe in the possibility of a Creator different from our universe.
I cannot tell you what I believe on that subject until you define what you mean by "creator" in some testable, falsifiable manner.
That's what I called biased unbelief.
Not believing in a thing until there is evidence for its existence is the neutral position, not bias.
 
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WoundedDeep

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No, what I ask is rhetorical, because to other universes have not been demonstrated to exist. Without that access, all you have are unevidenced assertions about "design".

I gave evidence in different ways to which the lot of you brushed it aside. Evidence 1: Design of the universe is evidenced in human inventions, and by comparing how human inventions work and how the universe works there are many similarities. I will not repeat myself ever again regarding "evidences of God".

I cannot tell you what I believe on that subject until you define what you mean by "creator" in some testable, falsifiable manner.

Tell me how a created object can define its inventor in some testable, falsifiable way and I will define God for you.

Not believing in a thing until there is evidence for its existence is the neutral position, not bias.

Not believing in a thing, and brushing aside evidence for its existence is not neutral position, its biased unbelief.
 
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Davian

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I gave evidence in different ways to which the lot of you brushed it aside. Evidence 1: Design of the universe is evidenced in human inventions, and by comparing how human inventions work and how the universe works there are many similarities. I will not repeat myself ever again regarding "evidences of God".
Without that access to other universes, your assertions about "design" remain untestable and unfalsifiable. They are of no scientific significance.

Tell me how a created object can define its inventor in some testable, falsifiable way and I will define God for you.
No, as you will merely claim that your "God" is not definable in that manner, as you have said already. Do your own homework.

Not believing in a thing, and brushing aside evidence for its existence is not neutral position, its biased unbelief.
However, you have yet to define this thing, you have said you cannot define this thing, and you have not presented the evidence for this thing in the form of testable, falsifiable hypothesis.

I will maintain the neutral position - disbelief.
 
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Hezekiah Holbrooke

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Assuming a god exists, it has chosen to remain invisible. Just how does it better serve this god's agenda to have a world in which he doesn't manifest himself in reality? A world in which an existent god which doesn't manifest itself in reality is indistinguishable from a non-existent god?

Furthermore, why would a god set up a system in which our salvation is dependent upon believing something to exist on insufficient evidence?

First of all, God IS invisible.
Second, God sent the prophets, Moses, and the Christ who was God in the flesh and the people still didn't believe. God personally ruled over Israel for quite some time and they rebelled against Him. God finally simply left mankind to his own devices.
 
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Archaeopteryx

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Because for something inanimate like gravity to exist, you need an external agent.

Show that this is true.

Just like you need a programmer for computer programs to exist. I gave you this analogy from the beginning, not sure why you couldn't understand.

Because it's not even an analogy. We know that computers are programmed because we have programmed them. We don't know precisely how gravity works, so to say that it is "programmed" is an unfounded assumption.
 
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2B4gotN

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First of all, God IS invisible.
Second, God sent the prophets, Moses, and the Christ who was God in the flesh and the people still didn't believe. God personally ruled over Israel for quite some time and they rebelled against Him. God finally simply left mankind to his own devices.

Yet, God hasn't abandoned us. It is man who turns away from God. God allows us to stray so He can draw us near Him.
 
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Hezekiah Holbrooke

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Yet, God hasn't abandoned us. It is man who turns away from God. God allows us to stray so He can draw us near Him.

Indeed. Way back at the Tower of Babel, God chose Israel, which did not even exist at that time, as His portion. When the nations gather to destroy Israel, Christ will return and put an end to all the madness man has wrought.
 
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talquin

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By that logic, I could mention three times that you are actually a rhinoceros and that would be proof that you are a rhinoceros.
I asked you to read up about it already. Let's not continue with analogies that make no sense.
You said "I mentioned the empty tomb of Jesus at least three times already, that is the proof of resurrection." If mentioning something three times is enough to provide proof of something, then I merely need to mention three times that you are a rhinoceros and that would be proof you are a rhinoceros.

As I said, there are no authenticated verifiable accounts of an empty tomb, while there are millions of verifiable accounts of humans making up stories.
Have you read anything about the empty tomb yet to say there are no verifiable accounts?
Bring forward a verifiable account of the empty tomb that's written by an unbiased third party.

You mentioned Christians being killed and asked why people would kill Christians without being deluded.
You have just rephrased my original statement beyond any recognition.
You said "Christians are persecuted and killed for the truth they tell."

First, we don't know that what they're telling is the truth, as we don't have a god or a Jesus to examine to verify that. And if Christians are being killed, the incidents on 9/11 certainly aren't an instance of Christians not being killed.

One of the prominent reasons it's lasted so long because Christians are taught to indoctrinate their children at very young ages.
Jesus' first disciples are certainly not "children" and neither are all Christians indoctrinated children. In fact, all Christians who hold onto their faith for entire lives have life changing experiences like I did as an atheist. Your statement is entirely a blank generalization.
A person who is indoctrinated with a belief as a young child by a person they trust (parents) is far more likely to latch onto that belief and hold that belief than if you were to try to do the same with a person who was, say in his/her 20s.


While you obviously can't deny your own experiences, how do you know those experiences are due to Jesus?
Because it happened only after I believed in Him and prayed to Him about those life changing events?
That's a fallacious argument called selective observation. Something good happens and you cherry pick something which you did or which happened earlier and credit the earlier event as the cause of the good thing.

Who created the laws by which God is governed
God is not governed like we are, He is of a different nature from the material universe. To say that God must be governed will bring about an endless spiral of "who governs A that governs B that governs..." That makes no sense either.
OK, then there must be rules under which God operates. Who created the rules or guidelines (or whatever we need to call them) under which God operates?

When a prophecy is told and fulfilled within the same book, it diminishes the validity of the prophecy enormously. Once again, what do you suppose is more likely - that these prophecies really were told and were later fulfilled or that the prophecies didn't occur and were made up?
Validity of any prophecy is determined by the time of the prophecy and the details of the prophecy. A valid prophecy must necessarily occur before the prophesied event and the prophesied event must match details of the prophecy. This is what is observed by Bible scholars and historians and that is why the prophecies in the Bible are held to high credibility.
Please provide your best example of a prophecy which was fulfilled. Provide the date and details or the prophecy and where it is documented. Also provide the date and details of the prophecy being fulfilled and where it is documented. Please do not refer to the same source for documentation of the prophecy and fulfillment of the prophecy.

How do you know that these prophecies were written centuries before the birth of Jesus?
Because the timing of the written records of the prophecies about Jesus are all hundreds of years B.C (before Jesus was born)?
How do you know the prophecies weren't made up after Jesus was born such that they matched what really happened?
 
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talquin

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First of all, God IS invisible.
Second, God sent the prophets, Moses, and the Christ who was God in the flesh and the people still didn't believe. God personally ruled over Israel for quite some time and they rebelled against Him. God finally simply left mankind to his own devices.
If so many people believe without people being sent in the flesh, then why is it necessary to send people in the flesh to get people to believe?

And how about all the non-believers? What method does God use to get those people to believe? Why can't an all-powerful, all-knowing God conquer all the atheists and do what it takes to get them to believe?
 
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talquin

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When a prophecy is told and fulfilled within the same book, it diminishes the validity of the prophecy enormously. Once again, what do you suppose is more likely - that these prophecies really were told and were later fulfilled or that the prophecies didn't occur and were made up?
There are not from the same book or more accurately from the same scroll.
Please provide your best example of a prophecy which was fulfilled. Provide the date and details or the prophecy and where it is documented. Also provide the date and details of the prophecy being fulfilled and where it is documented. Please do not refer to the same source for documentation of the prophecy and fulfillment of the prophecy.

How do you know that these prophecies were written centuries before the birth of Jesus?
Dead Sea Scrolls nailed that one.
Were you there before Jesus was born to see the prophecies already written?
 
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WindStaff

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There have always been 'seasons' of God. Throughout ancient history, He came and went; even for many centuries at a time. God waited sometimes for a long while, even 400 years to make contact and fulfill His will.

There are enormous time gaps in biblical history, and during those gaps there was indeed a lot of turning back to paganism or general falling apart.

Prophecies are often made a very long time before anything at all even begins to happen. For example, Isaiah prophesied Christ 700 years before he came.


So when a person asks "why does God choose to remain invisible", they are really asking a question which surely rested among Israel from His first contact- He doesn't reveal why, but why does He really need to? Is it not self explanatory that God is eternal to our finite existence, that centuries for us is a mere second to Him? It is, by sheer necessity, something which requires patience and faith.
 
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Hezekiah Holbrooke

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If so many people believe without people being sent in the flesh, then why is it necessary to send people in the flesh to get people to believe?

And how about all the non-believers? What method does God use to get those people to believe? Why can't an all-powerful, all-knowing God conquer all the atheists and do what it takes to get them to believe?

First of all, Christ purpose for coming in the flesh was not to get people to believe although His coming did cause many to believe.

Second, the atheists have the very same opportunity to believe as does everyone. There is no excuse.

Your argument is moot.
 
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Smidlee

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Please provide your best example of a prophecy which was fulfilled. Provide the date and details or the prophecy and where it is documented. Also provide the date and details of the prophecy being fulfilled and where it is documented. Please do not refer to the same source for documentation of the prophecy and fulfillment of the prophecy.
Let me guess your logic: The book of Daniel had to be written at a later date since you don't believe prophecy is possible.

Were you there before Jesus was born to see the prophecies already written?
Nope. Nor was I around when my parents got married.
 
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wiske

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You said "I mentioned the empty tomb of Jesus at least three times already, that is the proof of resurrection." If mentioning something three times is enough to provide proof of something, then I merely need to mention three times that you are a rhinoceros and that would be proof you are a rhinoceros.

This is disingenuous. She mentioned the empty tomb repeatedly, and you refuse to respond to it.

Bring forward a verifiable account of the empty tomb that's written by an unbiased third party.

The Gospels, being the Word of God, are, each of them, unbiased parties for all Christians. They are biographies, especially the synoptic ones.

You said "Christians are persecuted and killed for the truth they tell."

First, we don't know that what they're telling is the truth, as we don't have a god or a Jesus to examine to verify that. And if Christians are being killed, the incidents on 9/11 certainly aren't an instance of Christians not being killed.

Are you, in all earnestness, doubting the veracity of the persecution and martyrdom of early Christians under the Romans? That is historical revisionism of the worst kind. I wonder what other atrocities of the past you deny.

Christians who died on 9/11, did not die for their beliefs.

A person who is indoctrinated with a belief as a young child by a person they trust (parents) is far more likely to latch onto that belief and hold that belief than if you were to try to do the same with a person who was, say in his/her 20s.

Your reasoning is complete bogus. By your logic, any new religion or denomination would stand no chance of gaining new members. Yet what we see in reality is a proliferation of Christian denominations, beginning with the Reformation (not to mention unchristian cults, such as JWs, Mormonism, Theosophy, Crowleyism, LaVeyism, dendrophilia, Wicca, Hare Krishna, Moon sect, Bhagwan, Scientology, Rael, Dawkinsism, etc. etc.).

WoundedDeep, by her example, disproves your odd statement: she was raised in an atheist family, she wasn't allowed to attend Church or even read Christian literature (she had to do it secretly); her parents made it well-nigh impossible for her to become an heretic of the atheistic religion (such as materialism, scientism etc.). And yet, despite a youth filled with ungodly indoctrination, she found her way into Christianity!

That's a fallacious argument called selective observation. Something good happens and you cherry pick something which you did or which happened earlier and credit the earlier event as the cause of the good thing.

How is she cherry-picking; what information did she leave out? A fallacy mon œuil!

OK, then there must be rules under which God operates. Who created the rules or guidelines (or whatever we need to call them) under which God operates?

Unless you know God better than I, there must be no such rules.

Please provide your best example of a prophecy which was fulfilled. Provide the date and details or the prophecy and where it is documented. Also provide the date and details of the prophecy being fulfilled and where it is documented. Please do not refer to the same source for documentation of the prophecy and fulfillment of the prophecy.

This question has already been answered. The Books of the Bible are separate works, written by different authors at different epochs. The prophecies about Jesus Christ were made several centuries BC; most of the Old Testament was finished by 500 BC. The prophecies were fulfilled in AD time.

How do you know the prophecies weren't made up after Jesus was born such that they matched what really happened?

Not only were they in the Hebrew Bible; they were also already in the LXX for more than 200 years. You should, like, do some reading on the history of the Holy Scriptures; something like 'Key to the Bible', which is accessible to lay readers. Avoid Bart Ehrman, though, he's a pseudo-scholar with an atheistic agenda.
 
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WoundedDeep

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You said "I mentioned the empty tomb of Jesus at least three times already, that is the proof of resurrection." If mentioning something three times is enough to provide proof of something, then I merely need to mention three times that you are a rhinoceros and that would be proof you are a rhinoceros.

I said the empty tomb of Jesus is the proof. I did NOT say my 3 repeated mentions is the proof. How incomprehensive are my words really that you can't even seem to grasp it even though I phrased it in the most logical manner?

Bring forward a verifiable account of the empty tomb that's written by an unbiased third party.

The Dead Sea Scrolls. It IS the most contemporary and verifiable account of not only account of the empty tomb, but also the entire Gospels.

You said "Christians are persecuted and killed for the truth they tell."

First, we don't know that what they're telling is the truth, as we don't have a god or a Jesus to examine to verify that. And if Christians are being killed, the incidents on 9/11 certainly aren't an instance of Christians not being killed.

How many times do you require someone to tell you that Christian persecution is a historical event which occurred since Christianity started? Or are you in plain denial of history itself?

A person who is indoctrinated with a belief as a young child by a person they trust (parents) is far more likely to latch onto that belief and hold that belief than if you were to try to do the same with a person who was, say in his/her 20s.

I was indoctrinated with atheism from birth but yet I am now a Christian. Your statement is proven false by my very life.

That's a fallacious argument called selective observation. Something good happens and you cherry pick something which you did or which happened earlier and credit the earlier event as the cause of the good thing.

So you are suggesting I should deny my personal experiences? Sorry, but that is not going to happen in the name of "fallacious argument". I know full well what I once believed and what I believe now. I know what I experienced and why I experienced certain things, no outsider can redefine them for me. Please do not attempt to discredit my experiences and force your beliefs on me.

OK, then there must be rules under which God operates. Who created the rules or guidelines (or whatever we need to call them) under which God operates?

Do you know God to say He must operate under some rules? I have only spoken of things seen in this universe which we all know operates under rules (and which are scientifically verified), but you speak of things you yourself do not know. So you are asking a question about God with a statement about God you cannot verify. It will be plain absurdity for me to try to answer a question based on unverified statements.
 
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wiske

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You're posts are self explanatory for all to see. They contain no objective evidence to support you're claim, yet at the same time, you state other throw logic out the window when they point out the obvious.

Some people's logic is driven by their personal faith belief and others is driven by objective evidence. It is quite clear, which one you fall under.

What is the content of this post; what are you arguing? Apart from an insulting tirade at the address of WoundedDeep, I see nothing of substance.

And here's another grammatical catastrophe, this time by a poster named variant (post #268), in response to the same post by WoundedDeep:

So you've demonstrated some sort of lordship over the label of "factual"?

Your ability for clarity deciphering truth don't seem to be that advanced to me.

Mere insult. And there are plenty of other examples.

It is no wonder that WoundedDeep is getting tired (I suppose!) of this kind of low-brow debate.

It is a joy to read WoundedDeep's contributions; she is a very smart cookie, much smarter than I am, and much smarter than anyone posting in this thread. Insulting her ad nauseam doesn't change that.
 
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