Why does God choose to remain invisible and undetectable?

[talquin]

That is just a rather bad excuse to avoid the inevitable fact that if you drop your senses to sin, you will perceive God.

It's not like the Bible doesn't adamantly teach this from beginning to end. You are incapable of doing such, and so you will never do what is required- therein you ridicule it.

What real thing is it you are calling 'God'?

 

[talquin]

Name one prophet that is accepted today; outside religion. If you can’t, your argument fails

I'm not sure what you mean by "outside religion". Name one scientist that's accepted today outside of science.

But to your point, about 70% of Americans believe that Jesus was a prophet. He's pretty well accepted.

If 99.99% of Americans believed that you are really a hippopotamus, would that mean you are a hippopotamus?

Too bad there is no proof he actually rose from the dead huh!

Why dismiss the multitudes of eyewitness testimonies that came from the first century?

How do you know there were multitudes of eyewitness testimonies?

Well it does! Now why would an all wise God use a church wrecked with credibility issues to manifest his tangibility?

God is a God who saves sinners. There need to be sinners in order for God to be seen as a savior.

What do you mean by 'saves sinners'? Give me some of your best examples of sinners.

No, the first issue is his existence; there is no empirical evidence that your God exist. That is clear to all.

Here we'll have to agree to disagree. I think that you know that God exists but you just very much dislike this idea.

Can you demonstrate that God does exist?

 

[talquin]

Every god is visible. Who is not?

As far as the second question, it is not logically right.

Really. If each god is visible, then in this day and age of the internet, why don't we see photos of god plastered all over the internet?

 

[talquin]

You name one to me, and I will show how is that god look like.

I think he asked you to demonstrate a way in which God is visible. Let's try this: if a photograph were taken of a visible god and shown to both a non-believer and a believer, would each of them see precisely the same thing in the photograph?

 

[bhsmte]

You name one to me, and I will show how is that god look like.

Your claim, show and demonstrate how God's are visible.

 

[talquin]

Your claim, show and demonstrate how God's are visible.

What do you suppose is his reason for now showing God?

 

[WoundedDeep]

Assuming a god exists, it has chosen to remain invisible. Just how does it better serve this god's agenda to have a world in which he doesn't manifest himself in reality? A world in which an existent god which doesn't manifest itself in reality is indistinguishable from a non-existent god?

Furthermore, why would a god set up a system in which our salvation is dependent upon believing something to exist on insufficient evidence?

God did not remain invisible all throughout history. God walked as a man called Jesus Christ 2000 years ago. It's historically verifiable and confirmable that there was such a man called Jesus Christ who was crucified under Pontius Pilate upon a charge by Israel religious leader for outright blasphemy, ie. claiming that He is God made flesh.

In fact, God's invisibility is not a hindrance to any man from knowing His existence since Paul in Romans 1 clearly write that mankind throughout history are without excuse for claiming ignorance because God's attributes and eternal power are perceivable from the things that are made in this universe. But most men don't perceive because they don't seek to perceive with a learning, humbled heart and mind and they go into it with preconceived ideas taught to them by fellow men. (Like human theories on evolution etc) Men are inclined to try to be their own gods and with such an attitude, how do they expect to understand in their pride and stubbornness?

 

[talquin]

God did not remain invisible all throughout history.

How do you know this?

God walked as a man called Jesus Christ 2000 years ago.

How do you know that the human named Jesus was actually a god?

It's historically verifiable and confirmable that there was such a man called Jesus Christ who was crucified under Pontius Pilate upon a charge by Israel religious leader for outright blasphemy, ie. claiming that He is God made flesh.

Just how does a man claiming to be God actually make him God?

In fact, God's invisibility is not a hindrance to any man from knowing His existence since Paul in Romans 1 clearly write that mankind throughout history are without excuse for claiming ignorance because God's attributes and eternal power are perceivable from the things that are made in this universe.

What attributes are you talking about? And how do you know these things are evidence of a god?

But most men don't perceive because they don't seek to perceive with a learning, humbled heart and mind and they go into it with preconceived ideas taught to them by fellow men. (Like human theories on evolution etc) Men are inclined to try to be their own gods and with such an attitude, how do they expect to understand in their pride and stubbornness?

Why should we not believe our fellow men? Wasn't it humans who wrote the Bible?

 

[madaz]

God did not remain invisible all throughout history. God walked as a man called Jesus Christ 2000 years ago. It's historically verifiable and confirmable that there was such a man called Jesus Christ who was crucified under Pontius Pilate upon a charge by Israel religious leader for outright blasphemy, ie. claiming that He is God made flesh.

Any man can go around claiming to be a god in the flesh, and the odds are, they WILL be accused of blasphemy, mental illness. No different then as it is now.


But just because such a man makes such a claim, does not mean it is true.

In fact, God's invisibility is not a hindrance to any man from knowing His existence since Paul in Romans 1 clearly write that mankind throughout history are without excuse for claiming ignorance because God's attributes and eternal power are perceivable from the things that are made in this universe.

God's attributes and eternal power are NOT perceivable to me from the things that are made in this universe. This is a genuine reason not an excuse.

But most men don't perceive because they don't seek to perceive with a learning, humbled heart and mind and they go into it with preconceived ideas taught to them by fellow men. (Like human theories on evolution etc)

Dont forget human theories on creation (as per Genesis and hundreds of others) too.

Men are inclined to try to be their own gods and with such an attitude, how do they expect to understand in their pride and stubbornness?

How does a man be a god? From my experience it is usually men of unwavering faith and loyalty, to the literal interpretation of outdated religious holy books, that display pride and stubborness. I think you may be projecting here.

 

[WoundedDeep]

How do you know this?

How do you know that the human named Jesus was actually a god?

Just how does a man claiming to be God actually make him God?

By everything Jesus has done from the time of His ministry to His death and resurrection. He did not just claim to be God, but He verified it by His deeds of driving out of demons and healing people of sickness etc and later on His bodily resurrection. Even those who falsely accuse Him of blasphemy acknowledged that He had done miracles that no one in His time could do and that His tomb was empty despite Roman guards watching over it.

How do you know this?

What attributes are you talking about? And how do you know these things are evidence of a god?

For instance, everything in this universe runs by a set of seen or unseen laws, eg the laws of gravity and physics. No law can exist without a Person who sets them and puts them in place to work - anyone can easily see this as true with a bit of common sense.

Why should we not believe our fellow men? Wasn't it humans who wrote the Bible?

It is one thing for a man to tell a story, but it is a different thing when men who were born in different generations tell the exact same story. The Bible is so much more reliable than other books because the authors lived in different generations and did not in any way communicate or plan beforehand on the things they are to write about. All of them wrote about real experiences in their own lives with God and their revelations add up to a coherent understanding of God's message to those who also experience God in their lives today.

 

[Deidre32]

I've been out of Christianity for about four years, and identify myself as an atheist. But, lately, I've been exploring this void within myself, and why I have it.

When I think about God, and what I thought him to be at one time...he was everything, yet I couldn't see him. And that is faith. Faith requires no logic, or evidence...it is a belief that god is real, somehow...somewhere.

The question becomes...does there need to be evidence?

 

[Archaeopteryx]

I've been out of Christianity for about four years, and identify myself as an atheist. But, lately, I've been exploring this void within myself, and why I have it.

When I think about God, and what I thought him to be at one time...he was everything, yet I couldn't see him. And that is faith. Faith requires no logic, or evidence...it is a belief that god is real, somehow...somewhere.

The question becomes...does there need to be evidence?

Does there need to be a reason for believing? To me this sounds like "Why can't I just believe what I want to believe?" One can do that, but the question then becomes whether that is intellectually honest.

 

[juvenissun]

I've been out of Christianity for about four years, and identify myself as an atheist. But, lately, I've been exploring this void within myself, and why I have it.

When I think about God, and what I thought him to be at one time...he was everything, yet I couldn't see him. And that is faith. Faith requires no logic, or evidence...it is a belief that god is real, somehow...somewhere.

The question becomes...does there need to be evidence?

Sure. And evidence of God is EVERYWHERE.
The problem is: do you accept any of them?
Remind you: All evidences are LOGICAL. And the existence of God is ILLOGICAL.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Sure. And evidence of God is EVERYWHERE.
The problem is: do you accept any of them?

I imagine that, if you believe in a deity, you might think that everything is evidence for its reality, but might this not also arise by confirmation bias?

 

[WoundedDeep]

Any man can go around claiming to be a god in the flesh, and the odds are, they WILL be accused of blasphemy, mental illness. No different then as it is now.

But just because such a man makes such a claim, does not mean it is true

Jesus did not just claim, but He proved it with His deeds of healing and driving out demons and many more, miracles no one in His time could do. He made it all the more undeniable when He endured pain and death on a cross and then later resurrecting from physical death leaving His tomb empty by appearing with His resurrected body to many who believe in Him. Not a single men in history could raise himself from physical death, of course then their claims of messiahship or deity is blasphemy. Not so with Jesus Christ.

God's attributes and eternal power are NOT perceivable to me from the things that are made in this universe. This is a genuine reason not an excuse.

A simple question can get you to perceive: who or what defined the physical laws of nature or the laws of gravity? You know full well human laws are set and don't somehow evolve out of nothing, so how did the laws seen in this universe come about without an intelligent Being setting them and putting them in place? Common sense tells you the laws observed in the universe are in fact set up and therefore there must be a Creator who created the universe.

Dont forget human theories on creation (as per Genesis and hundreds of others) too.

Human theories on creation? I'm not sure what theories you refer to but Genesis is not a record of theories but rather a historical record of what happened before the time of Moses. It was written by Moses who had a personal experience with God and God revealed the history of mankind to him. To be able to record events and people generations before you is not possible with human wisdom, therefore God is the author of Genesis, not man.

How does a man be a god? From my experience it is usually men of unwavering faith and loyalty, to the literal interpretation of outdated religious holy books, that display pride and stubborness. I think you may be projecting here.

A man become his own god when he considers himself above God and thus refuse to obey Him or revere Him. A man becomes his own god when he perceives himself as the source of wisdom and life and power and thus rejects God as the ultimate source of all good things.

I am not sure what experiences you had with men of faith or their "literal interpretation", but I can tell you I don't rely on myself or anyone else to interpret the Bible. In fact, my atheist parents didn't even allow me to fellowship in church for years when I first started believing. I had to read the Bible in secret for fear of my parents tearing it up or throwing it away. I learned everything I needed as a new believer through prayers and careful study. The Bible was taught to me by God Himself those isolated years.

 

[juvenissun]

I imagine that, if you believe in a deity, you might think that everything is evidence for its reality, but might this not also arise by confirmation bias?

it does not matter. YOU are the only one it is concerned. If YOU take the evidences, that is good enough.

Just like I believe and you don't. I talk to you, but I don't really care what you (or anyone) think about my faith. If you think I am wrong about any evidence, then we can talk about it.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Jesus did not just claim, but He proved it with His deeds of healing and driving out demons and many more, miracles no one in His time could do.

He reportedly performed miracles. In this regard he was not unique, but sits alongside countless other purported miracle practitioners.

A simple question can get you to perceive: who or what defined the physical laws of nature or the laws of gravity? You know full well human laws are set and don't somehow evolve out of nothing, so how did the laws seen in this universe come about without an intelligent Being setting them and putting them in place? Common sense tells you the laws observed in the universe are in fact set up and therefore there must be a Creator who created the universe.

In science, laws are descriptions, not mandates. You are confusing the legal sense of the word with the scientific.

Human theories on creation? I'm not sure what theories you refer to but Genesis is not a record of theories but rather a historical record of what happened before the time of Moses. It was written by Moses who had a personal experience with God and God revealed the history of mankind to him. To be able to record events and people generations before you is not possible with human wisdom, therefore God is the author of Genesis, not man.

Taken literally, the chronology in Genesis is discordant with our scientific understanding of the universe's development.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

it does not matter. YOU are the only one it is concerned. If YOU take the evidences, that is good enough.

Just like I believe and you don't. I talk to you, but I don't really care what you (or anyone) think about my faith. If you think I am wrong about any evidence, then we can talk about it.

It does not matter whether your attribution of something as "evidence" for a deity is actually evidence and not due to confirmation bias? This strikes me as alarming. If it does not matter, then how can we reason about it honestly?

 

[madaz]

Jesus did not just claim, but He proved it with His deeds of healing and driving out demons and many more, miracles no one in His time could do. He made it all the more undeniable when He endured pain and death on a cross and then later resurrecting from physical death leaving His tomb empty by appearing with His resurrected body to many who believe in Him. Not a single men in history could raise himself from physical death, of course then their claims of messiahship or deity is blasphemy. Not so with Jesus Christ. .

The authors who wrote about Jesus miracles were born decades (at best)after Jesus died, they never met Jesus, all we have is heresay.

A simple question can get you to perceive: who or what defined the physical laws of nature or the laws of gravity? You know full well human laws are set and don't somehow evolve out of nothing, so how did the laws seen in this universe come about without an intelligent Being setting them and putting them in place? Common sense tells you the laws observed in the universe are in fact set up and therefore there must be a Creator who created the universe.

Something tells me you do not understand the scientific sense of the word law.

Human theories on creation? I'm not sure what theories you refer to but Genesis is not a record of theories but rather a historical record of what happened before the time of Moses. It was written by Moses who had a personal experience with God and God revealed the history of mankind to him. To be able to record events and people generations before you is not possible with human wisdom, therefore God is the author of Genesis, not man.

Genesis is just one of hundreds of different creation stories created by men who attempted to understand how life started.
Genesis isnt generally considered myth because Christianity is currently the favorite religion.

A man become his own god when he considers himself above God and thus refuse to obey Him or revere Him. A man becomes his own god when he perceives himself as the source of wisdom and life and power and thus rejects God as the ultimate source of all good things.

Thanks for informing me, obviously only a believer can be his/her own god.

I am not sure what experiences you had with men of faith or their "literal interpretation", but I can tell you I don't rely on myself or anyone else to interpret the Bible. In fact, my atheist parents didn't even allow me to fellowship in church for years when I first started believing. I had to read the Bible in secret for fear of my parents tearing it up or throwing it away. I learned everything I needed as a new believer through prayers and careful study. The Bible was taught to me by God Himself those isolated years.

How exactly did god teach you to interpret the bible?

 

[WoundedDeep]

He reportedly performed miracles. In this regard he was not unique, but sits alongside countless other purported miracle practitioners.

You neglected that there was one miracle no one could do: resurrection from physical death. When Jesus died those who believed in Him at that time were all in hiding and in great terror, what finally emboldened them to preach Jesus was the fact that He overcame physical death and proved everything He said He would do.

In science, laws are descriptions, not mandates. You are confusing the legal sense of the word with the scientific.

Does it matter what you call it? The basis for defining something as law in science is that it is there to define how something functions. If calling it law is confusing, then call it protocol or whatever you want.

Even for protocols, you need a person to set it or define it and put it to work. Much like a computer program, you need a programmer for commands to be written. The fact that there are protocols/commands in the form of gravity and laws of physics to define how the universe works show that there is an intelligent Being behind the creation.

Taken literally, the chronology in Genesis is discordant with our scientific understanding of the universe's development.

Do you mean creation in 7 days, or something else? This is what I call the pride of human wisdom. If you believe that science somehow can give a complete understanding of the universe, you are pretty much going to be disappointed.