Why does God choose to remain invisible and undetectable?

[ChristCameBackFromTheDead]

Sure, I agree to some extent. However, don't you think that if you were to ask two Christians what they thought about the meaning of a biblical passage it would be perhaps wiser to ask the one who has a degree and developed thinking through a score of hermeneutics books VERSUS a Christian who has barely read a book of the New Testament and doesn't know the first thing about hermeneutics (or languages and linguistics, etc, etc.)?

I for one would not ask the latter Christian.

Someone who studies the bible because they simply love it can come away with the same meaning as one who went to school for it.

But yea, unfortunately reading the bible now isn't what it should be. I always get a kick out of people who randomly open the bible and think the first verse they read is God talking to them.

 

[ananda]

Sure, I agree to some extent. However, don't you think that if you were to ask two Christians what they thought about the meaning of a biblical passage it would be perhaps wiser to ask the one who has a degree and developed thinking through a score of hermeneutics books VERSUS a Christian who has barely read a book of the New Testament and doesn't know the first thing about hermeneutics (or languages and linguistics, etc, etc.)? Wouldn't this also apply in science?

I for one would not ask the latter Christian. And if I did ask, I would 'ask' (research) via a score of scholars, not just one, and by doing so, I would feel that I could get a more solid answer (interpretation), even if that interpretation is not yet conclusive.

So, where does it say in the Bible that understanding God's word is limited to the degreed person? Did the apostles have degrees and published hermeneutic books? Didn't Jesus say "Let the children come to me, and do not hinder them; for to such belongs the kingdom of heaven."?

If only person with advanced degrees and credentials can properly interpret the Bible, what does that say about God and his plan for salvation?

 

[ChristCameBackFromTheDead]

I for one would not ask the latter Christian. And if I did ask, I would 'ask' (research) via a score of scholars, not just one, and by doing so, I would feel that I could get a more solid answer (interpretation), even if that interpretation is not yet conclusive.

You know, most of my deepest understandings of the bible comes from just me and my bible and a prayer before asking for wisdom. I just enjoy my old fashioned reading time, using the bible (actual bible not tablet) and a pen and paper then jotting down all my questions and using the concordance to find my answer.

Sometimes that is the best way, I've came to some pretty good revelations without the guide of someone else. Got some pretty good stuff that way

 

[bhsmte]

Sure, I agree to some extent. However, don't you think that if you were to ask two Christians what they thought about the meaning of a biblical passage it would be perhaps wiser to ask the one who has a degree and developed thinking through a score of hermeneutics books VERSUS a Christian who has barely read a book of the New Testament and doesn't know the first thing about hermeneutics (or languages and linguistics, etc, etc.)?

I for one would not ask the latter Christian.

I will say this, many Christians have little knowledge of the bible, it's origins and historicity behind it.

Gallup did a poll several years ago and measured religious knowledge amongst several groups, including atheists. The atheists scored higher on religious knowledge then the Christians did, which supports the fact that many who become atheists, do so with a lot of thought and investigation.

I was a Christian for around 40 years and it was a thorough examination (by accident really) of the NT that motivated me to rethink the whole Christian story and the credibility of the same. After doing so and acknowledging my new knowledge, I could no longer reconcile the Christian story with reality.

Now, this is not to say that those who believe in it are wrong in doing so, or are foolish to do so. Believing could be the right thing for a person, as it was for me for many years. Fact is, our psychological needs can change and we do accumulate new knowledge which may impact whether we can continue to reconcile certain faith beliefs and I simply couldn't any longer.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Someone who studies the bible because they simply love it can come away with the same meaning as one who went to school for it.

But yea, unfortunately reading the bible now isn't what it should be. I always get a kick out of people who randomly open the bible and think the first verse they read is God talking to them.

Yes, I agree--it is possible for someone to open the Bible and perhaps actually ascertain a close approximation of what the original author meant; it's just not very likely from my experience with people, whether they be Christian or otherwise. In fact, I think that the internal evidence of the Bible, particularly the New Testament, often infers that Biblical interpretation is, or can be, hard work. For some reason, some people (in America especially) seem to think that biblical interpretation is a 'cake-walk.'

 

[2PhiloVoid]

So, where does it say in the Bible that understanding God's word is limited to the degreed person? Did the apostles have degrees and published hermeneutic books? Didn't Jesus say "Let the children come to me, and do not hinder them; for to such belongs the kingdom of heaven."?

If only person with advanced degrees and credentials can properly interpret the Bible, what does that say about God and his plan for salvation?

I'm not really asserting that ONLY a degree professional will have 'right answers.' Rather, I'm asserting that biblical interpretation is hard work and an endeavor that takes a lot of time. It is also something on which we are to remain 'open' to some extent so we can learn, because we "...all see through a glass darkly."

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Can you give me some names of scholars who believe the Old Testament is standing law? Some believe to keep the Sabbath and some of the festivals, but that's fine.

Romans 14:5-6: "One person esteems one day above another, another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it. He who eats, eats to the Lord . . .

We do not call people wrong for celebrating the Sabbath. If they feel it in their heart to do so, then praise God and let them do it.

I would love some names though, because if one is to keep the ten commandments they are saying they keep the entirety of the mosaic laws. They don't, which means that everyone is agreed upon the new covenant. I think you maybe thinking of Jewish scholars?

Theonomists come to mind, like Bahnsen, for instance.

 

[ChristCameBackFromTheDead]

I will say this, many Christians have little knowledge of the bible, it's origins and historicity behind it.

Gallup did a poll several years ago and measured religious knowledge amongst several groups, including atheists. The atheists scored higher on religious knowledge then the Christians did, which supports the fact that many who become atheists, do so with a lot of thought and investigation.

I was a Christian for around 40 years and it was a thorough examination (by accident really) of the NT that motivated me to rethink the whole Christian story and the credibility of the same. After doing so and acknowledging my new knowledge, I could no longer reconcile the Christian story with reality.

Now, this is not to say that those who believe in it are wrong in doing so, or are foolish to do so. Believing could be the right thing for a person, as it was for me for many years. Fact is, our psychological needs can change and we do accumulate new knowledge which may impact whether we can continue to reconcile certain faith beliefs and I simply couldn't any longer.

Most people who identify themselves as Christians do so because of family or to be accepted. As for your walk with Christ you have to ask yourself if it was really a walk. Did unexplainable things happen to you? I consider myself a critical thinker, I used to read books upon books of myths, theories, philosophies, etc. My faith in my walk with Christ comes from things happening that nothing else could explain. Perhaps I've read different things than you that convinced me otherwise.

There are atheist scientists who have come to Christ after decades of research, it is the state of which your heart is in that dictates the acceptance of Christ. The fact is that we do live in a secular world and everyone wants to convince you there is no God. But when proof or unexplainable things are discovered they are ignored. Take for instance the artifacts found in 65+ million year dated coal. People ignore what they cannot explain and pass it off as not being provable by science. Satan rules the world, the state of our knowledge and what we accept is perfectly explainable to Christians.

Science works off what people view as true or not true. It lives in a box of what we understand and do not understand. Anything that goes against it is promptly removed or simply reasoned with "I don't know but we will figure it out!".

 

[Return to Skepticism]

Yes, I agree--it is possible for someone to open the Bible and perhaps actually ascertain a close approximation of what the original author meant; it's just not very likely from my experience with people, whether they be Christian or otherwise. In fact, I think that the internal evidence of the Bible, particularly the New Testament, often infers that Biblical interpretation is, or can be, hard work. For some reason, some people (in America especially) seem to think that biblical interpretation is a 'cake-walk.'

doesn't that just add more fuel to the "invisible and undetectable" assertion regarding a God?

why would a god make his record unfathomable to most, and a supposed few who can rightly interpret it (of which we have no consensus, given the diaspora of doctrines and interpretations) If it supposedly wants all men to understand?

illogical.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

You know, most of my deepest understandings of the bible comes from just me and my bible and a prayer before asking for wisdom. I just enjoy my old fashioned reading time, using the bible (actual bible not tablet) and a pen and paper then jotting down all my questions and using the concordance to find my answer.

Sometimes that is the best way, I've came to some pretty good revelations without the guide of someone else. Got some pretty good stuff that way

Agreed. I use that 'method' too...and at times see things in ways that no scholar I've come across seems to share. But, there are also times that it seems the only way to cross the divide of understanding is to take some knowledgeable brother and sisters along on the journey of discovery...if even I disagree with them.

 

[Return to Skepticism]

Most people who identify themselves as Christians do so because of family or to be accepted. As for your walk with Christ you have to ask yourself if it was really a walk. Did unexplainable things happen to you? I consider myself a critical thinker, I used to read books upon books of myths, theories, philosophies, etc. My faith in my walk with Christ comes from things happening that nothing else could explain. Perhaps I've read different things than you that convinced me otherwise.

There are atheist scientists who have come to Christ after decades of research, it is the state of which your heart is in that dictates the acceptance of Christ. The fact is that we do live in a secular world and everyone wants to convince you there is no God. But when proof or unexplainable things are discovered they are ignored. Take for instance the artifacts found in 65+ million year dated coal. People ignore what they cannot explain and pass it off as not being provable by science. Satan rules the world, the state of our knowledge and what we accept is perfectly explainable to Christians.

Science works off what people view as true or not true. It lives in a box of what we understand and do not understand. Anything that goes against it is promptly removed or simply reasoned with "I don't know but we will figure it out!".

ugh. that's the most frequent, and frankly the most awful apologetic we see. When the "you don't get it because you don't believe it" argument runs in to the wall of people who WERE christians for a good long time, then they inevitably have to use the no true scotsman fallacy.

 

[bhsmte]

Most people who identify themselves as Christians do so because of family or to be accepted. As for your walk with Christ you have to ask yourself if it was really a walk. Did unexplainable things happen to you? I consider myself a critical thinker, I used to read books upon books of myths, theories, philosophies, etc. My faith in my walk with Christ comes from things happening that nothing else could explain. Perhaps I've read different things than you that convinced me otherwise.

There are atheist scientists who have come to Christ after decades of research, it is the state of which your heart is in that dictates the acceptance of Christ. The fact is that we do live in a secular world and everyone wants to convince you there is no God. But when proof or unexplainable things are discovered they are ignored. Take for instance the artifacts found in 65+ million year dated coal. People ignore what they cannot explain and pass it off as not being provable by science. Satan rules the world, the state of our knowledge and what we accept is perfectly explainable to Christians.

Science works off what people view as true or not true. It lives in a box of what we understand and do not understand. Anything that goes against it is promptly removed or simply reasoned with "I don't know but we will figure it out!".

Yes, I have heard the; "was your walk with Christ real" claim many times or; "you were not really a true Christian if you left the faith".

I tend to understand why some use this argument, because in reality, it is really a way for them to protect their own belief, by claiming if someone left Christianity, they must have been missing something, that I have.

I look at it this way; some who are Christians use their faith in positive ways and it is beneficial for them, because it makes them a better person. Some Christians do not use their faith in a positive way and like to judge others who disagree with them and or use their faith as a weapon. Just as some atheists are good people and some are not.

To me though, being truthful with myself after acquiring knowledge and not pretending to believe something that I could no longer reconcile, is a sign of strength, not weakness.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I will say this, many Christians have little knowledge of the bible, it's origins and historicity behind it.

Gallup did a poll several years ago and measured religious knowledge amongst several groups, including atheists. The atheists scored higher on religious knowledge then the Christians did, which supports the fact that many who become atheists, do so with a lot of thought and investigation.

I was a Christian for around 40 years and it was a thorough examination (by accident really) of the NT that motivated me to rethink the whole Christian story and the credibility of the same. After doing so and acknowledging my new knowledge, I could no longer reconcile the Christian story with reality.

Now, this is not to say that those who believe in it are wrong in doing so, or are foolish to do so. Believing could be the right thing for a person, as it was for me for many years. Fact is, our psychological needs can change and we do accumulate new knowledge which may impact whether we can continue to reconcile certain faith beliefs and I simply couldn't any longer.

Great comments, bhmste...and I agree with much (if not most) of what you're saying here.

I can see that you're definitely an intelligent person, and I appreciate that you seem to really take a thoughtful (and perhaps academic) approach to religion and/or Christian faith, science, etc.

However, the fact that many Christians also do 'Christianity' on what appears to be a 'sub-par' basis might also socially reflect that Americans in general--on average--have an 8th grade education. Add in the fact that many Christians are not white collar workers with degrees or pedigrees, and you get a very wide spread of cognitive competency. (Perhaps American Christians need to take James' admonition to be 'slow to speak, and quick to listen, and to not presume to be teachers.)

 

[ChristCameBackFromTheDead]

doesn't that just add more fuel to the "invisible and undetectable" assertion regarding a God?

why would a god make his record unfathomable to most, and a supposed few who can rightly interpret it (of which we have no consensus, given the diaspora of doctrines and interpretations) If it supposedly wants all men to understand?

illogical.

Because in the beginning there was God, people used to have very personal relationships with Him. Through their desire to go against Him they developed their own reasoning and understanding.

There's a 50% chance according to science that there is a creator or something that created. It's a mystery. Let's just say for sake of this conversation that there is a God. Let's say He is pure and good and people doing bad things is against His very nature. But it gives us an extreme choice to test our free will. Look at the state of the world, really, look at it. If sinning is against His nature and someone who has zero sensitivity to sin only to their moral right or wrong which they adapted from a sinful world. Would they be able to find that goodness?

The majority of the world is crawling with sin, that sin can be developed from their arrogance of understanding the being of the universe. They are literally looking at His creation, His proof, and saying "No, this happened by itself". There's a common sense being over looked here. He is a perfectly just God. So why would peoples arrogance and disbelief and their embracing of sin go unpunished?

I told this to my son, a good little metaphor. If you had a fish tank and you put let's say, 20 fish in it. 10 of these fish started to kill the other fish for no reason at all, maybe they enjoyed it. Then every time you stuck your hand in to feed them those same 10 jumped out and bit your hand. No matter what you do to show them you loved them they just repeatedly bit you and attacked the others. The 10 fish that do not bite you, that do not attack the others, they always become excited when you come to feed them. They lovingly swim around your hand and show clearly they lovingly rely upon you for all their needs and trust you. Now, when they all got old, they all died.

I asked him this. Knowing the difference between right and wrong, you now have the ability to bring all of these fish back to life and to live with them forever. Which fish would you take?

Can you guess his answer?

Sometimes the answers to our questions can be stupidly simple.

 

[bhsmte]

Great comments, bhmste...and I agree with much (if not most) of what you're saying here.

I can see that you're definitely an intelligent person, and I appreciate that you seem to really take a thoughtful (and perhaps academic) approach to religion and/or Christian faith, science, etc.

However, the fact that many Christians also do 'Christianity' on what appears to be a 'sub-par' basis might also socially reflect that Americans in general--on average--have an 8th grade education. Add in the fact that many Christians are not white collar workers with degrees or pedigrees, and you get a very white spread of cognitive competency. (Perhaps American Christians need to take James' admonition to be 'slow to speak, and quick to listen, and to not presume to be teachers.)

Your last paragraph would be bolstered by the several advanced countries which have higher education levels than the United States, as having far fewer Christians than the United States. There is a real correlation between, higher levels of education and lower beliefs in Gods.

Now, before anyone gets their panties in a bunch, I am not saying Christians or God believers are stupid, because many Christians are highly intelligent, they just look at the legitimacy of a certain faith belief differently then others.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

doesn't that just add more fuel to the "invisible and undetectable" assertion regarding a God?

why would a god make his record unfathomable to most, and a supposed few who can rightly interpret it (of which we have no consensus, given the diaspora of doctrines and interpretations) If it supposedly wants all men to understand?

illogical.

No. It's an admonition to ALL Christians to be humble and unassuming...which seems difficult in today's pluralistic, democratic age of free-thought. (In other words, even Christians like to believe they have the 'right' to speak the words of God, even when the New Testament tells us all to be very, very careful in doing so. And of course, what ends up happening is that too many of us blather and bring reproach upon the Christian faith.)

But, I disagree with your last comment--I don't think it is 'illogical,' although it may very much 'feel' problematic from a human standpoint.

 

[ChristCameBackFromTheDead]

Yes, I have heard the; "was your walk with Christ real" claim many times or; "you were not really a true Christian if you left the faith".

I tend to understand why some use this argument, because in reality, it is really a way for them to protect their own belief, by claiming if someone left Christianity, they must have been missing something, that I have.

I look at it this way; some who are Christians use their faith in positive ways and it is beneficial for them, because it makes them a better person. Some Christians do not use their faith in a positive way and like to judge others who disagree with them and or use their faith as a weapon. Just as some atheists are good people and some are not.

To me though, being truthful with myself after acquiring knowledge and not pretending to believe something that I could no longer reconcile, is a sign of strength, not weakness.

How would you explain a scientist coming to Christ after decades of atheistic research? Would you explain it away as that's just what they needed at the time?

Many Christians fall from Christianity, the bible speaks of it, and it's dangerous. Someone else said that this is the most common type of rebuttal Christians use when told this, but some of us are truly God fearing people and will be until the day we die. We get our understanding of the world from scripture. In that same scripture describes a darker force that brings people away from God. So if this is what our doctrine says, why is it so hard to accept that we say it?

Many Christians fall away because they read and live in the secular world, when in reality nothing has disproved God and science is making it harder and harder to just say he doesn't exist. But the secular world is there by a power to bring people away from God. That's how we understand it. It says in the bible for us to join together as Christians to strengthen each other, to keep each other on the right road. The desire to live in sin without consequence is pretty high, sometimes people just give up the spiritual battle and fully succumb to that desire.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Your last paragraph would be bolstered by the several advanced countries which have higher education levels than the United States, as having far fewer Christians than the United States. There is a real correlation between, higher levels of education and lower beliefs in Gods.

Now, before anyone gets their panties in a bunch, I am not saying Christians or God believers are stupid, because many Christians are highly intelligent, they just look at the legitimacy of a certain faith belief differently then others.

Sure. And I understand the historical underpinnings of the educational contrast between nations. But, we might not want to jump the gun and assume that the 'correlation' between education and religious belief indicates some actual cause and effect.

Perhaps it might actually be that the parameters of the active Zeitgeist and working paradigm of the more educated brings certain assumptions to the 'table' as to what truth is and as to how it seems it would be manifested in the world. Perhaps, all the while that these developments among the intellectual elite have been going on, Christian thought has mistakenly fallen into the evidentialist pattern of thought construction, proffering an evidentialist framework....one that confuses everyone on assessing the value and/or truth of Christian faith...including Christians who only average an 8th grade education.

 

[ChristCameBackFromTheDead]

Sure. And I understand the historical underpinnings of the educational contrast between nations. But, we might not want to jump the gun and assume that the 'correlation' between education and religious belief indicates some actual cause and effect.

Perhaps it might actually be that the parameters of the active Zeitgeist and working paradigm of the more educated brings certain assumptions to the 'table' as to what truth is and as to how it seems it would be manifested in the world. Perhaps, all the while that these developments among the intellectual elite have been going on, Christian thought has mistakenly fallen into the evidentialist pattern of thought construction, proffering an evidentialist framework....one that confuses everyone on assessing the value and/or truth of Christian faith...including Christians who only average an 8th grade education.

Wow

So thought provoking it hurts.

 

[bhsmte]

How would you explain a scientist coming to Christ after decades of atheistic research? Would you explain it away as that's just what they needed at the time?

Many Christians fall from Christianity, the bible speaks of it, and it's dangerous. Someone else said that this is the most common type of rebuttal Christians use when told this, but some of us are truly God fearing people and will be until the day we die. We get our understanding of the world from scripture. In that same scripture describes a darker force that brings people away from God. So if this is what our doctrine says, why is it so hard to accept that we say it?

Many Christians fall away because they read and live in the secular world, when in reality nothing has disproved God and science is making it harder and harder to just say he doesn't exist. But the secular world is there by a power to bring people away from God. That's how we understand it. It says in the bible for us to join together as Christians to strengthen each other, to keep each other on the right road. The desire to live in sin without consequence is pretty high, sometimes people just give up the spiritual battle and fully succumb to that desire.

Couple facts:

-more people leave Christianity, then convert to it
-the more education one attains the less likely they are of being a Christian

With that said, I believe, that faith beliefs are heavily driven by personal psychological needs. Some of those needs are likely hard wired in us (why are we here, what does this all mean?) and some people for comfort of knowing there is an all powerful being that is looking out for them specifically and has a plan for them now and in the afterlife. This can be very compelling stuff and was for me for most of my life and I fully understand how people put their faith in it.

Now, do I believe it is unhealthy for someone to have a psychological need to believe in a God? No, for some it is very healthy, for others that abuse it, is not healthy. People tend to gravitate toward the religion they were exposed to as a child and or according to their geography and this is understandable.

I also believe, as education evolves and some come to understand themselves and the world a bit better, this psychological need (to believe in a God) can wane and this is supported by worldly numbers that show belief in a God has been declining for decades.

To each's own. You can't force someone to believe a story they can not reconcile in their own mind and you can't force someone to not believe something that is very important to them.