Why does God choose to remain invisible and undetectable?

[2PhiloVoid]

ugh. that's the most frequent, and frankly the most awful apologetic we see. When the "you don't get it because you don't believe it" argument runs in to the wall of people who WERE christians for a good long time, then they inevitably have to use the no true scotsman fallacy.

...and sometimes we just admit that they were (sadly) Christians who got caught by the schemes of the world and thus went down the road of apostasy. (Sure, I can believe they were a True Scotsman).

 

[bhsmte]

Sure. And I understand the historical underpinnings of the educational contrast between nations. But, we might not want to jump the gun and assume that the 'correlation' between education and religious belief indicates some actual cause and effect.

Perhaps it might actually be that the parameters of the active Zeitgeist and working paradigm of the more educated brings certain assumptions to the 'table' as to what truth is and as to how it seems it would be manifested in the world. Perhaps, all the while that these developments among the intellectual elite have been going on, Christian thought has mistakenly fallen into the evidentialist pattern of thought construction, proffering an evidentialist framework....one that confuses everyone on assessing the value and/or truth of Christian faith...including Christians who only average an 8th grade education.

I think what it really comes down to is this:

As people's own knowledge evolves and their own psychology evolves over time, each has their own gauge of what they can reconcile and what they can not reconcile.

Some gravitate more towards needing objective reasoning to reconcile something as believable, others can reconcile something like a faith belief as believable for other reasons.

Neither one is right or wrong, because we are all individuals, who are hopefully in touch and honest with ourselves.

 

[bhsmte]

...and sometimes we just admit that they were (sadly) Christians who got caught by the schemes of the world and thus went down the road of apostasy. (Sure, I can believe they were a True Scotsman).

What do you mean by; "got caught by the schemes of the world"?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Wow

So thought provoking it hurts.

Yes....it does hurt. And it gives us reason to be careful in our Christian walk.

Peace

 

[ChristCameBackFromTheDead]

Couple facts:

-more people leave Christianity, then convert to it
-the more education one attains the less likely they are of being a Christian

With that said, I believe, that faith beliefs are heavily driven by personal psychological needs. Some of those needs are likely hard wired in us (why are we here, what does this all mean?) and some people for comfort of knowing there is an all powerful being that is looking out for them specifically and has a plan for them now and in the afterlife. This can be very compelling stuff and was for me for most of my life and I fully understand how people put their faith in it.

Now, do I believe it is unhealthy for someone to have a psychological need to believe in a God? No, for some it is very healthy, for others that abuse it, is not healthy. People tend to gravitate toward the religion they were exposed to as a child and or according to their geography and this is understandable.

I also believe, as education evolves and some come to understand themselves and the world a bit better, this psychological need (to believe in a God) can wane and this is supported by worldly numbers that show belief in a God has been declining for decades.

To each's own. You can't force someone to believe a story they can not reconcile in their own mind and you can't force someone to not believe something that is very important to them.

But then you have people who walk with Christ the literal way Christ told us to. There is no personal comfort, nor do I dwell on the after life being a factor. I never think of what will happen when I die, my focus is my love for God. That's it. I want people to feel that love, I honestly think people who come to Christianity out of fear of hell or desire for heaven will have a hard time living a righteous life.

It's true, everything you said makes perfect sense. Down to the very letter, and you know what it is? It's dangerous for believers. Why? Because faith is easily destroyed for many because they put too much faith into mankind. Then you have to start asking big questions, such as where did all this come from? If the universe is expanding, even says it in the bible, where did it all expand from? Uh oh... the very foundation of the universe now defies the entire scientific method.

Science to me is the discovery of God's creation, they only define the small instances that people try to put together to make sense of it all. But when the big questions come, science politely excuses itself from the table and let's the big boys dish it out. Where does conscious thought come from? The ability to know and gauge what is right or wrong, again, where did it all come from? What is love? According to scientific understanding love is survival. Protection of your kids is nothing but a survival instinct. Why do we love the weak? Why do we come together in love? How are we separated from all the other creatures in the world?

These are some valid questions bro, and you as someone I would consider educated, I would expect you to understand this.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

What do you mean by; "got caught by the schemes of the world"?

bhsmte,

Well.....I mean simply that it isn't all the fault of atheists that they come to see the world (as a part of the modern Zeitgeist) as they do; Christians should see them at least partially as victims of circumstance, as Jesus did. (Remember the "Parable of the Sower"; four kinds of circumstances and four kinds of results.)

 

[bhsmte]

But then you have people who walk with Christ the literal way Christ told us to. There is no personal comfort, nor do I dwell on the after life being a factor. I never think of what will happen when I die, my focus is my love for God. That's it. I want people to feel that love, I honestly think people who come to Christianity out of fear of hell or desire for heaven will have a hard time living a righteous life.

It's true, everything you said makes perfect sense. Down to the very letter, and you know what it is? It's dangerous for believers. Why? Because faith is easily destroyed for many because they put too much faith into mankind. Then you have to start asking big questions, such as where did all this come from? If the universe is expanding, even says it in the bible, where did it all expand from? Uh oh... the very foundation of the universe now defies the entire scientific method.

Science to me is the discovery of God's creation, they only define the small instances that people try to put together to make sense of it all. But when the big questions come, science politely excuses itself from the table and let's the big boys dish it out. Where does conscious thought come from? The ability to know and gauge what is right or wrong, again, where did it all come from? What is love? According to scientific understanding love is survival. Protection of your kids is nothing but a survival instinct. Why do we love the weak? Why do we come together in love? How are we separated from all the other creatures in the world?

These are some valid questions bro, and you as someone I would consider educated, I would expect you to understand this.

There are lots of questions we don't know the answer to and also many questions science has likely answered over time, with ample evidence to support those answers. I would imagine, as time goes on, science will continue to answer questions we currently do not know, just as it has for a long time and no reason to think this will change.

IMO, it is a sign of strength and intellectual honesty to state; "I don't know", as opposed to pretending or manufacturing an answer, to suit a personal need or belief.

 

[bhsmte]

bhsmte,

Well.....I mean simply that it isn't all the fault of atheists that they come to see the world (as a part of the modern Zeitgeist) as they do; Christians should see them at least partially as victims of circumstance, as Jesus did. (Remember the "Parable of the Sower"; four kinds of circumstances and four kinds of results.)

Victims of what specific circumstance?

 

[ChristCameBackFromTheDead]

There are lots of questions we don't know the answer to and also many questions science has likely answered over time, with ample evidence to support those answers. I would imagine, as time goes on, science will continue to answer questions we currently do not know, just as it has for a long time and no reason to think this will change.

IMO, it is a sign of strength and intellectual honesty to state; "I don't know", as opposed to pretending or manufacturing an answer, to suit a personal need or belief.

So do you ever look at the reality of God and say "I don't know" ?

 

[bhsmte]

So do you ever look at the reality of God and say "I don't know" ?

As I stated, I was a Christian for 40 years and would call myself an atheist towards the Christian God today. Why? I can not reconcile the story with reality and with my knowledge and the more knowledge I accumulate about reality, the less believable the story became.

Could I be wrong about the Christian God? Sure, I could be wrong and I would not be intellectually honest to either say I can believe the story, or that I could not be wrong about my position.

Now, when it comes to a universal non personal God, I would give that concept a bit more chance of being correct, but still highly unlikely.

How about you, could you be wrong about your belief in the Christian God?

 

[Return to Skepticism]

...and sometimes we just admit that they were (sadly) Christians who got caught by the schemes of the world and thus went down the road of apostasy. (Sure, I can believe they were a True Scotsman).

but what is beyond you is honest investigation in to someones own beliefs, whereby the conclusion that what they believed previously, they no longer believe to be true.

It must be either false belief in the first place, or entrapment by the world, it cannot be anything else.

 

[ananda]

I'm not really asserting that ONLY a degree professional will have 'right answers.' Rather, I'm asserting that biblical interpretation is hard work and an endeavor that takes a lot of time. It is also something on which we are to remain 'open' to some extent so we can learn, because we "...all see through a glass darkly."

If hard work is necessary to gain a true interpretation, why do so many Christians insist that the gospel is simply "to believe"?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I think what it really comes down to is this:

As people's own knowledge evolves and their own psychology evolves over time, each has their own gauge of what they can reconcile and what they can not reconcile.

Some gravitate more towards needing objective reasoning to reconcile something as believable, others can reconcile something like a faith belief as believable for other reasons.

Neither one is right or wrong, because we are all individuals, who are hopefully in touch and honest with ourselves.

bhsmte...I mostly agree with you, particularly with the point you make about the formative aspects of psychology upon religious faith. However, some of this can be applied also to unbelief.

Have you read the latest article by Massimo Pigliucci in the January/February issue of the magazine, Skeptical Inquirer? I thought it somewhat thought provoking.

 

[bhsmte]

but what is beyond you is honest investigation in to someones own beliefs, whereby the conclusion that what they believed previously, they no longer believe to be true.

It must be either false belief in the first place, or entrapment by the world, it cannot be anything else.

Agree, which is why I asked the question of using the term; "victim".

I don't see, acquiring knowledge and acknowledging well evidenced reality, as being a victim.

 

[ChristCameBackFromTheDead]

As I stated, I was a Christian for 40 years and would call myself an atheist towards the Christian God today. Why? I can not reconcile the story with reality and with my knowledge and the more knowledge I accumulate about reality, the less believable the story became.

Could I be wrong about the Christian God? Sure, I could be wrong and I would not be intellectually honest to either say I can believe the story, or that I could not be wrong about my position.

Now, when it comes to a universal non personal God, I would give that concept a bit more chance of being correct, but still highly unlikely.

How about you, could you be wrong about your belief in the Christian God?

Nope, LOL

 

[2PhiloVoid]

but what is beyond you is honest investigation in to someones own beliefs, whereby the conclusion that what they believed previously, they no longer believe to be true.

It must be either false belief in the first place, or entrapment by the world, it cannot be anything else.

Umm....actually, it's not 'beyond' me; I have a degree in secular philosophy which is anything BUT a lack of honest investigation into someone's beliefs, particularly when those 'someones' are Descartes, David Hume, Immanuel Kant, Bertrand Russell, Spinoza, Karl Marx, Nietzche, Dewey, Hegel, Wittengenstein, Derrida, Rorty, etc., etc., etc.

So, let's not play the "you don't get me" card....

 

[2PhiloVoid]

If hard work is necessary to gain a true interpretation, why do so many Christians insist that the gospel is simply "to believe"?

Maybe because they don't understand that "belief" is the beginning point, not the end point. But since Christianity is often treated as a 'consumable product,' it is no wonder that a number of people who attempt to appropriate Christianity think that believing settles the game. Sad, but true.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Agree, which is why I asked the question of using the term; "victim".

I don't see, acquiring knowledge and acknowledging well evidenced reality, as being a victim.

Well, if you think that everything you've imbibed on the path of knowledge was brought to you by your own power, it's no wonder that you might be tempted to see nothing in the way of any spiritual subterfuge as having been perpetrated upon your own person.

Satan wouldn't be slick if everyone was wise to his game plan.

 

[bhsmte]

Well, if you think that everything you've imbibed on the path of knowledge was brought to you by your own power, it's no wonder that you might be tempted to see nothing in the way of any spiritual subterfuge as having been perpetrated upon your own person.

Satan wouldn't be slick if everyone was wise to his game plan.

Same can be applied then to those with religious beliefs.

And, since I don't believe satan exists, hard for me to give the dude any credence in this discussion.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Same can be applied then to those with religious beliefs.

And, since I don't believe satan exists, hard for me to give the dude any credence in this discussion.

lol....I wouldn't realistically expect you to give him credence, bhmste. That's what makes it so slick.

By the way, read the article I mentioned. (It is a Skeptic's article, after all.)