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Which term have I misused and what is the proper use for it?This is exactly how you can misuse various terms and bend various definitions to get yourself into absurd conclusions.
For example your first sentence:Which term have I misused and what is the proper use for it?
Here's "Free Will" cited:
"Free will is the capacity of agents to choose between different possible courses of action unimpeded."
Cake.This is exactly how you can misuse various terms and bend various definitions to get yourself into absurd conclusions.
It isn't a "language" limitation, it is a "real" limitation.You consider this to be His limitation, I say its not a real limitation, just a language limitation.
This is the point I was talking about in post #62, so I would basically repeat myself.God is incapable of choosing B
I haven't argued that God isn't "perfect". You're telling me what it means for God to be perfect, and if that means that God lacks free will, then okay, free will is an imperfection, and God is perfect because He lacks free will. I'll accept that. Is that what you're saying?This is the point I was talking about in post #62, so I would basically repeat myself.
You can create various language constructions or paradoxes like "God is not capable not to be perfect, therefore He is limited, therefore He is not perfect" and similar. But it has no substantial meaning, its just a play with words.
It's absurd because you've rephrased what I've said to make a claim that implies that I am less limited overall than God. I never said anything of the sort.Similarly, you can play with "God is not capable to choose wrong, I am, therefore I am less limited than God". Which is absurd, of course.
If you think that the "free will" definition includes ability to make errors or to be evil, then I would agree that God does not have this kind of free will. And I would add that such definition of free will is wrong.You're telling me what it means for God to be perfect, and if that means that God lacks free will, then okay, free will is an imperfection, and God is perfect because He lacks free will. I'll accept that. Is that what you're saying?
And you rephrased what I said, because I did not say "overall". We all read things in some personal context.It's absurd because you've rephrased what I've said to make a claim that implies that I am less limited overall than God. I never said anything of the sort.
You are mistaken. I did not guess what you think, I gave examples how playing with words without any context and proper definitions leads to various absurdities. You do not have to take it personally. If you agree with it, you can simply say you agree and we can move on.I would appreciate it if you took a moment and considered your latest response. Twice you made a guess about what you think my conclusion is, and you were wrong, but you argued against that made up conclusion. Please don't make things up. Please only address the things I've said and don't invent claims for me.
Well... it is a "real" limitation... it does limit something that is real.If you think that the "free will" definition includes ability to make errors or to be evil, then I would agree that God does not have this kind of free will. And I would add that such definition of free will is wrong.
But it seems to me you are saying something different, something about another ability, ability of choosing wrong options? Why would any will (human or not) choose a wrong option, knowing its a wrong option? God knows that the option A is wrong and chooses the right option, B. How is this a real limitation?
No, that's what people mean when they talk about "free will", that isn't wrong. I just cited the meaning of "free will". Whatever meaning you have for the term is not the norm. Let's stick to the normal usage of the term so that everyone understands the conversation.If you think that the "free will" definition includes ability to make errors or to be evil, then I would agree that God does not have this kind of free will. And I would add that such definition of free will is wrong.
Does not make sense. If you say that anything God does is good you must also maintain that suffering is good and that people suffering is good.Therefore, the breaking of bones must be good and necessary, because else God would not have made it that way.
Apart from when you are in Heaven of course. My understanding is that that place is perfect and without suffering.And the necessary property of the best possible world is that it contains some suffering.
Why not build us properly in the first place?God is breaking us apart and rebuilding us to be a better person.
So, there is suffering in the world because a world with suffering in it is better than a world without suffering in it. Oddly enough, this means that a world without God would look pretty much the same as a world with God.The general answer is quite simple - because the suffering is needed for the best of the creation as a whole.
If God took some of it away, the creation as a whole would not be the best.
Does not make sense. If you say that anything God does is good you must also maintain that suffering is good and that people suffering is good.
I disagree. Putting the cart before the horse and special pleading is a logical fallacy.
Backward reasoning, again. (Not yours. Theirs!)Why not build us properly in the first place?
But they don’t need to. Why good does their suffering bring to anything that does not feed on tears?The honour is that they are suffering as martyrs for GOD and Truth, not for sin.
Hello,
There are so many ways to answer that God does everything He can to avoid or abate suffering, that it can seem like no one has a definitive answer. However, we can start to understand that God is in the midst of suffering. For example, that God is able to distract us from suffering. The point is not that God distracts all suffering, where-ever it occurs. But that God shares the burden of suffering, with those that have faith in Him.
This bearing our burdens, as Christ did (watching the Father), is something you can fight or go with. There is wisdom in this, as suffering teaches us to develop character. If we didn't ever suffer, there would be no difference between Heaven and Hell. What we know, is that we can be distracted in degrees. Less suffering, is partly a choice. Partly a commitment, but partly a choice. If we have the opportunity to learn this, our suffering will always be less. This is the promise of God.
What we need to learn, in the process of (mentally) processing this, is that the burden we place on God, directly affects our ability to deal with the suffering that is inevitable. Even if we stayed our entire lives in Heaven, simply leaving Heaven, would be Hell. God's promise is not that we will stay for ever in Heaven, but that we will be able to endure what we suffer because of Hell, whether by someone else's actions or our own. And this is the kicker, we can even avoid suffering while we are suffering.
Avoiding suffering while we are suffering, allows us to be distracted from our suffering, especially suffering we can do nothing about. This is the principle:It is in effect, being forgiving of what God can do in this life, for the sake of the next. If God suffers, surely suffering has come to an end - for those that have faith in God's suffering. It might be hard to have faith that suffering will come to an end - that is the price of innocence, in one sense - but if we have simpler standards, as to what we will expect from God - in the face of that suffering - we will be going a great long way to ending the suffering that is needless (that is, if you can understand it: an ignorance of God).
God will be there with you in the suffering, but don't wait for your expectations of God, to define your response to His love - whether you are suffering a little or a lot, humility (that God continues to have a plan, for your life) will go a long way to preventing you from adding to that suffering needlessly: that is, asking for a more perfect solution to your suffering than He is able, all His efforts not withstanding, to give you. God wants to give you an end to suffering, but that doesn't mean He can immediately get it to you - be humble about what He can give you, and you will suffer less.
I hope we can understand this, in a bond of fellowship.
I am not trying to diminish anyone's suffering (that is up to God, ultimately).
God bless.
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