Why does God allow suffering? Bear in mind, those that don't need a perfect distraction, suffer less

[zippy2006]

I catch you fibbing, so you come back with the flamethrower, lol. I must be on to something to have you so worked up so quickly, eh Zippy? I'm lazy because I don't put as much detail into my posts as you want me to? lol, tough noogies.

If you think some conclusion is implicit in something I've said, it's fair to state "If that's true then...". But if you come back and tell me I claimed the thing you think is implicit that's called "a lie". If you need to lie to make your argument, your argument is bad.


If they have free will, then yeah. Are you claiming people freely choose things they don't want or what?


I've conflated nothing.

A If you have the ability to do X, then you can do X. If you cannot do X, then you do not freely choose to not do X.
B If have the ability to do X, but you do not have any desire whatsoever to do X, then you won't choose to do X.

Do you disagree with B? Do you think folks freely choose to do things they have zero desire at all to do? And if so, doing things you don't want to do is what free will looks like to you? Why are you choosing to do things if it isn't because you want to do those things?


Sex will necessarily happen sometimes, somewheres because people desire sex so much.
Does that mean that anytime someone chooses to have sex it was against their will?

If there was zero desire to have sex in every human, why would anyone choose to have sex ever?

So now you are changing face and admitting the my characterization is perfectly accurate, but you still haven't addressed the various issues I raised in previous posts. Again, I'm done repeating myself. You've finally admitted that you do hold the premise regarding desire and ability. Time to go back and read the arguments I built on that premise.

 

[Moral Orel]

So now you are changing face

"Changing face"? When did I ever say something different? You're fibbing again, Zippy.

 

[zippy2006]

"Changing face"? When did I ever say something different? You're fibbing again, Zippy.

I yield to the king of the kiddie pool, who cannot be bothered to read posts or think beyond that two-foot depth.

 

[Moral Orel]

I yield to the king of the kiddie pool, who cannot be bothered to read posts or think beyond that two-foot depth.

I read your posts. You wanted to play make believe. Seeya.

 

[Blade]

Well I agree with what Sis (Zion) said "what the meaning of suffering is and how it relates to the fall of Man in Genesis:" . So what are we talking about? God does not allow suffering. What all could we include if we jumped to Christ saying "on earth as it is in heaven"? Gods will? Is it not His word? There are wow so many promises in the OT alone about healing.

Since this went south "But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised." "The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."

Not the word of God but I think it always applies to the lost " I see a pearly gate, and beyond it is a world of light and joy.
A man is standing outside, with a hammer and nails. He is nailing bars across the gate to shut himself out".

 

[Gottservant]

What is frustrating, is that we keep arguing if God could "save us" from suffering, when God has made a way for us to suffer less: that is, to humble ourselves.

We should be asking "are there other things besides humbling ourselves?" that we can do to reduce suffering.

We can for example, "pray" that we not be given to a proud spirit, that would help us minimize what we make of suffering.

 

[VCR-2000]

But that just kicks the can further down the road. Why did God build reality in such a way as to need suffering?

Being able to do anything, he could have made a perfect reality with or without suffering. But he chose to add in suffering. Not because he needed to: but because he chose to.

Yeah, I think God chose to do things how he did, not because he "needed" too.

 

[Halbhh]

I for one have never done an actually evil thing and I have free will.

When anyone rejects another person by not loving them, it sows seeds for future rejections of others and/or retributions. School shooters are only an extreme example.

 

[Halbhh]

Hello,

There are so many ways to answer that God does everything He can to avoid or abate suffering, that it can seem like no one has a definitive answer. However, we can start to understand that God is in the midst of suffering. For example, that God is able to distract us from suffering. The point is not that God distracts all suffering, where-ever it occurs. But that God shares the burden of suffering, with those that have faith in Him.

This bearing our burdens, as Christ did (watching the Father), is something you can fight or go with. There is wisdom in this, as suffering teaches us to develop character. If we didn't ever suffer, there would be no difference between Heaven and Hell. What we know, is that we can be distracted in degrees. Less suffering, is partly a choice. Partly a commitment, but partly a choice. If we have the opportunity to learn this, our suffering will always be less. This is the promise of God.

What we need to learn, in the process of (mentally) processing this, is that the burden we place on God, directly affects our ability to deal with the suffering that is inevitable. Even if we stayed our entire lives in Heaven, simply leaving Heaven, would be Hell. God's promise is not that we will stay for ever in Heaven, but that we will be able to endure what we suffer because of Hell, whether by someone else's actions or our own. And this is the kicker, we can even avoid suffering while we are suffering.

Avoiding suffering while we are suffering, allows us to be distracted from our suffering, especially suffering we can do nothing about. This is the principle:It is in effect, being forgiving of what God can do in this life, for the sake of the next. If God suffers, surely suffering has come to an end - for those that have faith in God's suffering. It might be hard to have faith that suffering will come to an end - that is the price of innocence, in one sense - but if we have simpler standards, as to what we will expect from God - in the face of that suffering - we will be going a great long way to ending the suffering that is needless (that is, if you can understand it: an ignorance of God).

God will be there with you in the suffering, but don't wait for your expectations of God, to define your response to His love - whether you are suffering a little or a lot, humility (that God continues to have a plan, for your life) will go a long way to preventing you from adding to that suffering needlessly: that is, asking for a more perfect solution to your suffering than He is able, all His efforts not withstanding, to give you. God wants to give you an end to suffering, but that doesn't mean He can immediately get it to you - be humble about what He can give you, and you will suffer less.

I hope we can understand this, in a bond of fellowship.
I am not trying to diminish anyone's suffering (that is up to God, ultimately).

God bless.

Suffering has several benefits past physical like learning not to eat harmful foods or learning not to offend and lose friends and invaluable relationships.

Suffering also helps us gain in compassion for others and depth of love. And helps free us from preoccupation-distractions and things that don't matter so much and remember what matters most to us. It helps us find ourselves.

 

[Ken-1122]

Suffering also helps us gain in compassion for others and depth of love. And helps free us from preoccupation-distractions and things that don't matter so much and remember what matters most to us. It helps us find ourselves.

I've managed to accomplish all of those things without suffering. I suspect everyone else can do so as well.

 

[Halbhh]

I've managed to accomplish all of those things without suffering. I suspect everyone else can do so as well.

you'll see...if you're willing, in time

 

[Ken-1122]

you'll see...if you're willing, in time

What do you suspect I will eventually see? That I will all of a sudden begin to suffer when doing things I have been doing my entire life that did not require suffering before? I wouldn't hold my breath on that one if I were you.

 

[partinobodycular]

Suffering also helps us gain in compassion for others and depth of love.

Unless that suffering is being caused by others. In which case it's more likely to lead to bitterness, anger, and hate. Humans are very good at finding someone to blame for their suffering, and thus finding someone to hate.

Why do you assume that suffering will lead to one (love) more than the other (hate)?

 

[timothyu]

Unless that suffering is being caused by others. In which case it's more likely to lead to bitterness, anger, and hate. Humans are very good at finding someone to blame for their suffering, and thus finding someone to hate.

Why do you assume that suffering will lead to one (love) more than the other (hate)?

Yes if the one suffering is oppressed then there will be resentment, but what of those that love and help the sufferer in times of need. Will those be met with resentment for their loving spirit? Will the sufferer understand the power love?

 

[Halbhh]

What do you suspect I will eventually see? That I will all of a sudden begin to suffer when doing things I have been doing my entire life that did not require suffering before? I wouldn't hold my breath on that one if I were you.

If you age 10 years, you ought to learn entirely new things you didn't know before, including profound things that are new for you -- -- including such key topics as how best to love, what is beneficial suffering, how to find and integrate lost parts (abilities) of yourself, and so much more.

I've had that in every decade of my life so far, 6 decades.

It's a matter of choice though. To learn new things, you have to believe you can find new things, that there is more to learn that is profound. If a person thinks they already have all key knowledge, they have defeated themselves.

 

[Halbhh]

Unless that suffering is being caused by others. In which case it's more likely to lead to bitterness, anger, and hate. Humans are very good at finding someone to blame for their suffering, and thus finding someone to hate.

Why do you assume that suffering will lead to one (love) more than the other (hate)?

There are many kinds of suffering, and what I wrote above was a very brief description of some gains a person can gain from some kinds. For instance the temporary physical suffering of illness I've found beneficial to my attitudes over time in life.

You are bringing up to discuss an important type of suffering -- that caused by evil done by others to you personally. (Such as Christ experienced...)

After I have suffered an intentional harm done to me by someone, I have more empathy for others when I see that same wrong done to them. More compassion for them.

So, for instance, after being on a very few occasions wrongly called disparaging names (say in 2nd-5th grade or such), I gained additional compassion and care when I see someone else wrongly called names.

These various forms of sufferings we've experienced helps us to respond when others suffer:

Isaiah 1:17 Learn to do right; seek justice and correct the oppressor. Defend the fatherless and plead the case of the widow."

 

[Ken-1122]

If you age 10 years, you ought to learn entirely new things you didn't know before, including profound things that are new for you -- -- including such key topics as how best to love, what is beneficial suffering, how to find and integrate lost parts (abilities) of yourself, and so much more.

I've had that in every decade of my life so far, 6 decades.

It's a matter of choice though. To learn new things, you have to believe you can find new things, that there is more to learn that is profound. If a person thinks they already have all key knowledge, they have defeated themselves.

I appreciate you experience, but I respectfully disagree. Though I am in a constant state of learning, I have never found a benefit when it comes to suffering, and doubt I ever will. Perhaps you and I have different ideas of what it means to suffer.

 

[Gottservant]

What the soul calls suffering, is best heeded by the heart of that soul (selah)

 

[Halbhh]

I appreciate you experience, but I respectfully disagree. Though I am in a constant state of learning, I have never found a benefit when it comes to suffering, and doubt I ever will. Perhaps you and I have different ideas of what it means to suffer.

Well, there are the simple examples: without pain receptors, a person is in very real and sharp danger, not being able to feel when they are damaging themselves, such as putting a hand on a hot stove top. Without the pain to warn the person, they could get a much much more severe wound/damage to their hand before they realize something bad is happening.

Because of having the pain, they can yank their hand away quickly, and be saved from much worse damage.

The lasting suffering of the burn helps strongly impress on the person the crucial message from the body: please don't do this any more because it might kill me. (a deep burn can become infected of course, and that can be deadly, etc.)

So, evolution is pretty effective -- natural selection -- which has selected as an advantage for us to have pain receptors and the ability to suffer physical pain.

And the same for emotional pain also -- these ways to suffer are on the whole very beneficial to organisms.
(you can show why, or even use the simple negative: if they didn't aid us, natural selection would tend to remove them, because maintaining nerve cells has an energy cost to an organism. )

What evolution does when eyes are not needed:

The cave fish above didn't need eyes. And maintaining useless nerves is costly to an organism, so it's selected against over time.

You would not like your life very long without pain receptors and the attendant suffering...

Why? Because you'd be harmed so much worse at times being unable to realize something bad is happening more quickly, before it gets even worse.

 

[VCR-2000]

I appreciate you experience, but I respectfully disagree. Though I am in a constant state of learning, I have never found a benefit when it comes to suffering, and doubt I ever will. Perhaps you and I have different ideas of what it means to suffer.

It is like God is teasing us because we experience some kind of suffering, people or God say that it is for his greater good and he has made up for it somehow, then that leads to suffering too, and the cycle goes on and on at least until death.