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If it isn't a necessary consequence, then God built us intentionally poorly so that we'd screw up.
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If it isn't a necessary consequence, then God built us intentionally poorly so that we'd screw up.The common theistic answer is that free will does not necessitate suffering, but it does give rise to the possibility of suffering (via evil acts freely chosen). Thus when God created free will he did not create suffering, but he did create something that had the possibility of resulting in suffering.
On such an account the theist can point to free will as the sufficient cause of suffering without committing themselves to the position that suffering is a necessary consequence of free will.
I need you to assume I am a Young Earth Creationist because as an evolutionist the idea that all of mankind is the seed of Adam and Eve who were created as adults who were morally perfect flies in the face of evolution. So….. whatcha got?If you're a Young Earth Creationist that's a legitimate question, but if you're an evolutionist then the answer is a bit simpler...this kinda stuff takes time.
Ummm, I've got a brain and a nonconformist attitude, so I'm gonna assume that the story of Adam and Eve is metaphorical. Now if you wanna assume that the story of Adam and Eve is historical fact then awesome, go right ahead. But somehow I think that you don't really believe that.I need you to assume I am a Young Earth Creationist because as an evolutionist the idea that all of mankind is the seed of Adam and Eve who were created as adults who were morally perfect flies in the face of evolution.
So….. whatcha got?
There's a difference between how we judge and how God judges.According to the Bible, isn't God intolerant of sin? Doesn't he claim to be a jealous God? Isn't he also judgmental?
I always find it amusing how often non-believers are so focused on what God "should" or "shouldn't" do, without figuring US into the equation.You guys seem to be making a good hash of the idea that God could do away with suffering, but the thread is specifically about "doing something about suffering". Granted doing away with suffering is doing something from God's perspective; but what about doing something from our perspective?
If God created us without the desire to sin, he'd be creating us without free will.I am not comparing the love of sinners to the love of Christ, I’m comparing the love of sinners who are not Christian to the love of sinners who ARE Christian.
Yeah; especially when he didn't have to! All he had to do is create mankind WITHOUT the desire to sin and none of that would have been necessary.
I fail to see how the second bit follows from the first bit. The knowledge of sin is one thing, but the desire to sin is quite another.If God created us without the desire to sin, he'd be creating us without free will.
Mink61 said: ↑
If God created us without the desire to sin, he'd be creating us without free will.
Not everyone has the 'desire' to sin.I fail to see how the second bit follows from the first bit. The knowledge of sin is one thing, but the desire to sin is quite another.
Of course not. But then again, WE aren't God![Surely you're not suggesting that because God has free will He must also have the desire to sin.
But this then becomes @Moral Orel's question, if some of us lack the desire to sin, why not all of us?Not everyone has the 'desire' to sin.
Now I could posit an answer to this question which might be of interest to @Ken-1122, or of interest to no one.But this then becomes @Moral Orel's question, if some of us lack the desire to sin, why not all of us?
Because sin is a choice. God wants us to choose.But this then becomes @Moral Orel's question, if some of us lack the desire to sin, why not all of us?
I agree.Now I could posit an answer to this question which might be of interest to @Ken-1122, or of interest to no one.
Genesis and the bible describes the evolution of man from creation to its ultimate destiny. Within that destiny there are two distinct paths which begin with the attainment of reason, (the knowledge of good and evil), and end in either what the bible describes as heaven, or what it describes as hell.
Suffering is simply the price that that journey inevitably exacts.
Now could God have created man without our having to suffer...no. God created man, and man in that journey from self-awareness to destiny created suffering.
If it isn't a necessary consequence, then God built us intentionally poorly so that we'd screw up.
You know, if you keep talking like that you might become a Christian.Now I could posit an answer to this question which might be of interest to @Ken-1122, or of interest to no one.
Genesis and the bible describes the evolution of man from creation to its ultimate destiny. Within that destiny there are two distinct paths which begin with the attainment of reason, (the knowledge of good and evil), and end in either what the bible describes as heaven, or what it describes as hell.
Suffering is simply the price that that journey inevitably exacts.
Now could God have created man without our having to suffer...no. God created man, and man in that journey from self-awareness to destiny created suffering.
Well I guess there's always hope.You know, if you keep talking like that you might become a Christian.
One would choose suffering if the reward was worth the cost. So the question is, what did Adam gain in acquiring the knowledge of good and evil, or was that enough? Would I have made the same choice?After all, why would you choose suffering?
I guess if we're lucky we'll find out.Or is that never ending rabbit hole of knowledge worth it?
Will you live forever?
Sin , including the original sin was/is putting our will ahead of the will of God. So God put His will ahead of His will?Surely you're not suggesting that because God has free will He must also have the desire to sin.
Good question. His suffering was unnecessary.AND He suffered! You should think about this. Why would God Himself choose to suffer!
How do you tell the difference?Yes, but one needs to understand these things in the context of a loving parent, not in the context of a vindictive overlord.
When I speak of religion, I often speak in the context of what the person I am discussing with believes, not what I believe. According to Matthew 19:4-5 Jesus made it clear he believed Adam and Eve were the first actual people.Ummm, I've got a brain and a nonconformist attitude, so I'm gonna assume that the story of Adam and Eve is metaphorical. Now if you wanna assume that the story of Adam and Eve is historical fact then awesome, go right ahead. But somehow I think that you don't really believe that.
Are you suggesting Jesus nor God the father had free will since neither of them had a desire to sin?If God created us without the desire to sin, he'd be creating us without free will.
Just because you do not choose to do wrong does not mean you don't have countless other neutral or even good choices to chooser from.Free will is about having the ability to choose. In order to choose, we need more than one possibility to choose from.
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