Why does everyone think Evolution contradicts Creationism?

[Goonie]

10. Balderdash the muse of writing nonsense.(something that some on this forum are experts in.)

Myself included

 

[AV1611VET]

10. Balderdash the muse of writing nonsense.(something that some on this forum are experts in.)

Thanks for the QED.

 

[Goonie]

Thanks for the QED.

Somehow I don't think you got the point

 

[Phenotype]

You are absolutely correct. Dawkins asserts and tells good stories but evidence is completely lacking for them.

Can you authenticate for us all that you have actually read somewhat in the Dawkins ouevre and are therefore qualified to offer this wholly dismissive critique of it all?

What exactly of Dawkins have you carefully read, pencil in hand, Oncedeceived?

Answer the question directly. After all, you're making this very bold and authoritative pronouncement. Very assertive.

Or have you only read and heard creationist denunciations of his explanations of the account of life? And why would they do that? Are they control freaks too?

What you are naively but arrogantly deprecating is the the gene's eye view of life, in evolution by natural selection, explained with unique talent for ordinary people like you and me to apprehend, for those of us that is, who might happen to want to know how species come about.

You are determined to warn others off from reading any of the twelve Dawkins books for themselves. This is your mission in life. You are obsessed. You are delusional.

Look after your own mental health. Don't be trying to replicate your personal hangups into others' minds and lives. You are not more important than anyone else.

I strongly suggest you read, Suspicious Minds, Joel Gold of Bellevue hostital New York, just released. It is about delusional thinking and disorders.

 

[crjmurray]

You are not more important than anyone else.

.

Aw don't say that....that's all she has

 

[Phenotype]

No, it's not. There is no indication in any paper that I've read exactly how the different levels of lead isotopes are measured. In fact, I've never seen any of the popular papers online mention exactly how that's done. Do they melt the rock and centrifuge it? Do they use lasers? Do they use psychic energy?

Here's an example.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uranium-lead_dating

Scans for "measur" (which will cover both measured, measures, and measurement) show only:

1) the number of Uranium atoms measured now.
2) equal to the sum of Lead and Uranium atoms measured now.

Neither of these indicates how the lead is measured exactly.

Let's look at your link.

"The result is that one can obtain three independent estimates of the age of a rock by measuring the lead isotopes and their parent isotopes."
---------------
How is that done? It doesn't say. How can I determine whether such a method is repeatable? I cannot.


Once again, we have a Loudmouth's trademark: The straw man argument. What I talk about is THE PROBLEM OF INDUCTION. I know you don't want to admit it, but this is a major problem for scientific epistemology. The problem has its own entry in http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/induction-problem/ whereas "Last Thursdayism" does not. The problem of induction has been admitted as intractible by philosophers of science such as Karl Popper whereas Last Thursdayism has not even been given a second thought.

Karl Popper proposed falsificationism as the standard for science. Newer scientists propose Bayesian statistics. There are no major proponents of verificationism anywhere in the world. No scientist ever speaks of a theory being valid because it has been verified. Verificationism is dead, Loudmouth, deader than a doornail.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verificationism
"...all three of verificationism's shared basic suppositions—verifiability criterion,analytic/synthetic distinction, and observation/theory gap[3]—were by the 1960s found irreparably untenable, signaling the demise of verificationism and, with it, of the entire movement launched by logical positivism."


Who cares that they are verifiable? Verificationism is dead. Logical positivism is dead. No one thinks that verifiable and repeatable empirical measurements have anything to do with anything. You are the only one walking around with a dazed look on your face muttering, "It's verifiable... it's verifiable... why doesn't anyone listen? It's verifiable..."

I think Loudmouth is well aware that he should have said, verified, or 'the earlier findings were authenticated.' You laboured hard with this oversight, squeezed the max out of it.

You are being pedantic, you 'strain at a gnat and swallow a camel'. Such a weird expression that, but it is ironic in your case and irony is good. The literal mind doesn't understand the ironic mind, just doesn't get it.

Once again, Loudmouth's trademark -- Straw man arguments. I said, "[The article]'s not well written..." and your counter is that I should learn how radiometric dating is done before proclaiming that it doesn't work.

Are you still being the pedant? Does radiometric dating work or have we seriously and wantonly fooled ourselves?

 

[Larniavc]

The bad cells feed on the good cells so unless the bad cells can

That's not cancer.

 

[malvina]

The bible doesn't contradict itself at all but it is in fact giving accounts of different times in creation. I was amazed and thrilled to find this site which shows that science, geology and creation not only coincide but the bible fills in all the gaps that science has no answers for. It shows where the Garden of Eden was and the rivers etc. I am sure you will enjoy reading this as much as I do
http://www.kjvbible.org/

 

[Oncedeceived]

Can you authenticate for us all that you have actually read somewhat in the Dawkins ouevre and are therefore qualified to offer this wholly dismissive critique of it all?

What exactly of Dawkins have you carefully read, pencil in hand, Oncedeceived?

Pencil in hand? I don't share your fanatical reverence for Dawkins. I haven't read all his "works" but have gone online for those that I haven't read to "rummage" through them.

Answer the question directly. After all, you're making this very bold and authoritative pronouncement. Very assertive.

Or have you only read and heard creationist denunciations of his explanations of the account of life? And why would they do that? Are they control freaks too?

I find this rather ironic considering your comments and views on Christianity are skewed and seem to go along with Dawkins' view which is completely a straw man. Dawkins and yourself are both very uneducated in the religious realm.

What you are naively but arrogantly deprecating is the the gene's eye view of life, in evolution by natural selection, explained with unique talent for ordinary people like you and me to apprehend, for those of us that is, who might happen to want to know how species come about.

I don't deprecate anything other than Dawkins anti-theist, anti-Christian mindset and his misrepresentations of both.

You are determined to warn others off from reading any of the twelve Dawkins books for themselves. This is your mission in life. You are obsessed. You are delusional.

You are delusional if you think I believe warning others about Dawkins being my mission in life. That made me laugh out loud. Even many many atheists find the man unpleasant and a bigot.

Look after your own mental health. Don't be trying to replicate your personal hangups into others' minds and lives. You are not more important than anyone else.

Pheno, you run from Christianity right into the arms of Dawkins and his secular religion and talk about other's mental health? Need a mirror?

I strongly suggest you read, Suspicious Minds, Joel Gold of Bellevue hostital New York, just released. It is about delusional thinking and disorders.

I haven't read this so I will take a look if it is online. However, knowing your admiration and dedication to Dawkins I will assume this is more of the same. While I can't know what Gold believes about this topic I do understand Dawkins take on it. The criteria Dawkins applies makes one wonder whether you and Dawkins‘ own militant and fanatic atheism itself could be a mental pathology.

 

[Phenotype]

So Oncedeceived, you musn't lie to us. Admit you have never actually read a Dawkins book. And I would opine you only uncritically scan creationist denunciations and wanton misconstruals of Dawkins and Darwinism by those with a christian agenda, careerists like yourself, actually. They cannot but misrepresent the material, the account of life. And what if Dawkins actually were unpleasant, as you subjectively adjudge. The man is a stickler for sound, clear thinking and expression, I'll give you that. His apparent manner is irrelevant to what he explains, and why, and with such surpassing talent.

On Sunday, my daughter gave me a Fathers' Day gift voucher for the bookshop of course. So after lunch we trotted off for me to resupply. The place was packed.

I went straight to the non-fiction section. There I found, Death By Black Hole, by the USA's national treasure Neil de Grasse Tyson, a New York Times bestseller. Also I picked The Invisible History of the Human Race, how DNA and history shape our identities and our futures, Christine Kennealy actually from Melbourne, Australia. Know where that is? Also I snapped up Sapiens, a brief history of humankind, Yuval Noah Harari , Oxford PhD, now lectures at the Hebrew University, Jerusalem. Harari is one valuable individual for Israel today. Zionism is poisonous.

Sapiens is the best I've read on the history of our race, from the migrations out of East Africa, starting 2 million years ago and the evolution of different human species, until today. We still think like foragers. Our bodies are evolved for that lifestyle. I have read, Guns, Germs and Steel, The World Until Yesterday, and Collapse all by the USA treasure Jared Diamond; also Before The Dawn, also After The Ice and The 10,000 Year Explosion, how settled civilization accelerated human evolution. Sapiens is critical and just brilliant. Well over 65,000 people have signed up for his online course. Well worth undertaking indeed.

This is the kind of material, popular science and scholarship, plus literature that I have been absorbing, since taking Social Sciences in Humanities rescued me from christianity, 25 years ago now. I have quite a collection, all great books. I am discerning. One has to be selective. Can't read everything.

Every week, important books get released or reprinted. Every week that you shun such works as being worldly, of the devil, as fabricating a description of humans, of history and the world and, for you, promulgating an Antichrist ideology, the further into wanton ignorance you sink. The gulf ever widens. How are you ever going to wake up to yourself? This is about personal upheaval. Best to keep the fingers in ears.

Oncedeceived, you have made 17,854 posts, more by now. That's time I would be reading and learning, catching up from my wasted years as a christian and before, which is why I was vulnerable to being converted.

You are on a mission from Gad. Yes, I would have to say fanatical, obsessed. You don't want people taking my advice. You are all out to prevent them from that if you can. And it's not about you of course, but all for Jesus.

 

[Phenotype]

The bible doesn't contradict itself at all but it is in fact giving accounts of different times in creation. I was amazed and thrilled to find this site which shows that science, geology and creation not only coincide but the bible fills in all the gaps that science has no answers for. It shows where the Garden of Eden was and the rivers etc. I am sure you will enjoy reading this as much as I do
http://www.kjvbible.org/

Hi Malvina.

I'm thinking you are probably young.

May I suggest you cultivate insight into the general tendency when young to be credulous, gullible, easily impressed and fooled. Develop healthy skepticism. Demand the evidence before you will accept claims and so called true accounts in 'bible based science.'

You can never know what I am saying to you unless you dare to read popular science and scholarship which is not simply out to authenticate, to verify the bible. That is inward looking. It is circular reasoning, tautological to dogmatically assert that every word in the bible is true because the bible says so. Surely your capacity to engage reason, for cognition, can see that is unsound and a vicious trap. It will straight-jacket your intellect so you will always remain credulous and unlearned.

So, I suggest that you now actually go and do the very thing you have been so sternly warned against ever doing. Start by reading Richard Dawkins of course, and who else?

The book I would recommend to you, I think is The Magic of Reality. A little gem. River Out of Eden, also short. I just read that, what a classic. I found it waiting in the cool bookshop, reprinted. It is Dawkins' 4th. They are all brilliant, on the account of life. And what more important subject is there to know about? Understanding that will equip you.

I suggest The Blind Watchmaker, and The Greatest Show on Earth and also The Ancestors' Tale, a beautiful work, all by R.D. He has 12 books, all classics.

You know you are going to have to apply yourself if you really want to become educated. It takes years of plodding away, reading the good stuff. That's me all over.

 

[toLiJC]

If I were an all powerful being who wanted to create something as big and beautiful as the ENTIRE UNIVERSE... I would NEVER do it all by hand. I'd be too smart for that. First, I'd create the Laws of Physics, chemistry, etc. Then I would design a mechanism by which life of all forms can flourish.... IE... Evolution.

To me, Evolution is proof of creationism. It is proof that there is an Omniscient, Omnipotent being out there.

Most people who don't believe in evolution say "it's just a theory, it hasn't been proven" Which is a blatant misunderstanding of the word "theory". In scientific terms, a theory is something that has been proven, but not quantified (As opposed to a Law which is always true in every instance and can be calculated). It happens folks. No amount of whining and moaning can un-prove or undo evolution. So instead of believing that it is some affront to God, why not realize that Evolution is actually God's work?

We've seen evolution in our lifetimes. On microbial scale, we see things like algae being coaxed into evolving into fuel producing species. As humans, we've had a hand in the evolution of Dogs. We chose the ones that are loyal and that look nice, and the rest were routinely killed off. Even an astute person can see how traits are passed down from human parent to human child. We see hundreds or thousands of versions of the same plants and animals in different regions of the world.

So lets look at this differently.

Evolution does not disprove creationism, it is the mechanism. Science is how were discover God's universe. It is not the unholy tool by which we unravel God. It is God's tool by which we discover HIM!

why must God doom the souls to wait too long for their abundant life that lasts forever instead of providing them with it now?!, i ask this question, because evolution would mean a long protraction, or would you make your beloved children to wait for their dinner in a millennia-long state of cryostasis?!

Blessings

 

[Phenotype]

why must God doom the souls to wait too long for their abundant life that lasts forever instead of providing them with it now?!, i ask this question, because evolution would mean a long protraction, or would you make your beloved children to wait for their dinner in a millennia-long state of cryostasis?!

Blessings

toLiJC,

Hi.

This short question requires deconstruction and an answer which I can't do in just four lines. Do I really need to?

You need to start reading Richard Dawkins on evolution, not some creationist poison. Order online or from a bookshop, purchase and read closely, The Magic of Reality, and River Out of Eden and The Blind Watchmaker for starters. There will already be Dawkins books in there. Get them.

By your post, I would be most surprised if you ever read at all. This is serious. How can you stand being so uneducated? Start to address that sad state now. Apply your concentration. You must begin to train your brain for learning, understanding and clear thinking about religion and everything else about life and this modern human existence, which an adult should be able to discuss in an educated, critical and articulate way.

I can appreciate you just don't know how or where to begin. Go to a bookshop, the non fiction section. Popular science and scholarship. There is nothing you cannot find by Googling. Start with books. I reread a book sometimes. They are always there in the bookshelf to refer to. I read with a pencil to underline a word, to locate easily later. Most of my books have a good index at the end and pages listing all the books cited in the text: References and Further reading.

Your question is incoherent. It is full of invalid assumptions. I think you are asking, 'why did it have to take (3.6 billion), three thousand, six hundred million years since life began on the planet, for evolution to give rise to the species modern Homo sapiens, humans? This includes all other modern life forms in transition to adaptive change through natural selection, if they are not driven to extinction through human impact on their environment and the whole planet.

There is no soul, no eternal life. These are notions and doctrines of archaic, antiquated religion, man made. Resist being indoctrinated with teachings you know by your common sense are nonsense, require your faith and blind acceptance. I know you want to belong. That's human. We are a highly social species. That is the product of evolution securing survival.

A book I would most highly recommend to you is Sapiens, a brief history of humankind, Yuval Noah Harari of Hebrew University, Jerusalem. I am halfway through it now. This is one cracker of a read, now in paperback. It should be in the bookshop. Harari has an online course with over 65,000 enrolled.

I hope this helps. It's up to you.

 

[toLiJC]

toLiJC,

Hi.

This short question requires deconstruction and an answer which I can't do in just four lines. Do I really need to?

You need to start reading Richard Dawkins on evolution, not some creationist poison. Order online or from a bookshop, purchase and read closely, The Magic of Reality, and River Out of Eden and The Blind Watchmaker for starters. There will already be Dawkins books in there. Get them.

By your post, I would be most surprised if you ever read at all. This is serious. How can you stand being so uneducated? Start to address that sad state now. Apply your concentration. You must begin to train your brain for learning, understanding and clear thinking about religion and everything else about life and this modern human existence, which an adult should be able to discuss in an educated, critical and articulate way.

I can appreciate you just don't know how or where to begin. Go to a bookshop, the non fiction section. Popular science and scholarship. There is nothing you cannot find by Googling. Start with books. I reread a book sometimes. They are always there in the bookshelf to refer to. I read with a pencil to underline a word, to locate easily later. Most of my books have a good index at the end and pages listing all the books cited in the text: References and Further reading.

Your question is incoherent. It is full of invalid assumptions. I think you are asking, 'why did it have to take (3.6 billion), three thousand, six hundred million years since life began on the planet, for evolution to give rise to the species modern Homo sapiens, humans? This includes all other modern life forms in transition to adaptive change through natural selection, if they are not driven to extinction through human impact on their environment and the whole planet.

There is no soul, no eternal life. These are notions and doctrines of archaic, antiquated religion, man made. Resist being indoctrinated with teachings you know by your common sense are nonsense, require your faith and blind acceptance. I know you want to belong. That's human. We are a highly social species. That is the product of evolution securing survival.

A book I would most highly recommend to you is Sapiens, a brief history of humankind, Yuval Noah Harari of Hebrew University, Jerusalem. I am halfway through it now. This is one cracker of a read, now in paperback. It should be in the bookshop. Harari has an online course with over 65,000 enrolled.

I hope this helps. It's up to you.

however the science may be wonderful or is fascinating to you, i talked about the love, because even if the science says e.g. there is no place for more than such and such a number of people, if a parent really loves its children, then it will hardly prefer to leave them in a millennia-long state of vain/painful smolder, while the science could even doom everyone to grim/gloomy oblivion, that is why no man has a profit to pamper the science too much instead of pampering God

Blessings

 

[malvina]

Phenotype I think it's you that needs to grow up. I have been studying these things for most of my 81 years and used for the Lord in very powerful ways with healing, discernment and wisdom etc. so don't tell your Grandmother to suck eggs! There's much more to this life than you will ever know A lot of Christians think that Jesus isn't far away and we are promised that all the Truth will be revealed then so soon we will ALL have the answers.. No-one has the full truth about anything but one day hopefully soon all things will be revealed

 

[Phenotype]

however the science may be wonderful or is fascinating to you, i talked about the love, because even if the science says e.g. there is no place for more than such and such a number of people, if a parent really loves its children, then it will hardly prefer to leave them in a millennia-long state of vain/painful smolder, while the science could even doom everyone to grim/gloomy oblivion, that is why no man has a profit to pamper the science too much instead of pampering God

Blessings

This post is incoherent toLiC. You need to read a book. Not Christian material. That will only get you more cemented into the God delusion.

Go to the bookshop, have a really good look, buy a book and read it.

All the best.

 

[Phenotype]

Phenotype I think it's you that needs to grow up. I have been studying these things for most of my 81 years and used for the Lord in very powerful ways with healing, discernment and wisdom etc. so don't tell your Grandmother to suck eggs! There's much more to this life than you will ever know A lot of Christians think that Jesus isn't far away and we are promised that all the Truth will be revealed then so soon we will ALL have the answers.. No-one has the full truth about anything but one day hopefully soon all things will be revealed

If that's what gets you through the day and gives your life meaning and a sense of purpose, it's your life, malvina. I hope you are keeping healthy. You're feisty. That's cool.

Not this little black duck. I've been there. I know too much.

It must be very difficult to extricate oneself from Christianity in America, being surrounded by only Christians. You never meet anyone who doesn't believe and says it's all brainwashing. You can live your whole life and never get your beliefs challenged.

I would get away from it all if I was brought up there. Go to California, start over. Go to university and never look back.

'In God We Trust' is even on your money! It would prove impossible to get that propaganda removed from there. That is so pompous. It should read 'In Guns We Trust.'

'And Money And Capitalism.'

'And Patriotism.'

'And Military Capability.'

'Might Is Right.'

'In God We Rust.'

 

[SkyWriting]

Chapters 1 and 2 of Genesis contradict each other (hint! hint!)

Logically, why would 2 chapters written next to each other have any contradictions?
They don't.
Have any.

 

[SkyWriting]

We know the bible contradicts evolution.

Evolution has no influence over the origins of life. No real comment on it either.

 

[AV1611VET]

I would get away from it all if I was brought up there. Go to California, start over. Go to university and never look back.

Would you go to L'Aquila if scientists told you it was safe?