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There is always bound to be problems after you have made everything else, and made it perfect, but then finally decide to create beings to be your equals, or that are to be made in your own likeness and image for whatever reasons, or that are supposed to be exactly like you and your Heavenly hosts in the earth, etc.Only God the Father is the only One who has always been fully omniscient from the very beginning.
And that was not God in the Garden with Adam and Eve, or in and throughout the OT leading up to Christ.
And Jesus didn't know absolutely all either. For example, He did not know the exact day or the hour, but he knew the events.
And there are many, many things about God in the OT that shows he was not always fully omniscient also.
God the Father knew that Adam and Eve were always going to disobey/fall/get kicked out with 100% absolute certainty, but God in the Creation, and God in the Garden with Adam and Eve, wasn't expecting them to disobey because He thought He had made everything perfect, etc. And He had up to that point, etc.
He knew, or He was told it was a possibility (The special creation of Adam and Eve falling/disobeying) and fully knew of the backup plan if they did (Jesus Christ), but He didn't know that He was going to have to absolutely go through with that absolutely, or go that route absolutely, until they did, etc.
God Bless.
Hello, I have known these forums for a few years, but I haven't accessed them for a long time and I noticed that things have changed around here.
I'm not sure if this is the right place to discuss this topic. If it's not, I apologize and ask the moderators to move it to the appropriate forum if this is not the right place for this kind of topic. I apologize in advance if I break any forum rules. And I also apologize for the long post below.
I consider myself a pantheist and a freethinker, but I really want to regain my former faith in Christianity. Yes, I was raised in a Christian family, my whole family is Christian, and I used to be a Christian as well. I started losing faith in the Christian God after I lost my friend to cancer several years ago. The ancient philosophical and theological problem of evil is perhaps one of the biggest and main challenges preventing me from returning to Christianity. When I was a Christian, I was taught in church that God is All-Powerful, All-Loving, Perfect, a God who hears our prayers and cares for us, an Omnipotent God. If this God really cares about us, why did He allow my friend to lose the battle against liver cancer? This disease made him wither and suffer in such a tragic and inhumane way, even after almost two years of treatments and many prayers, but none of that helped, he lost the battle and passed away. I considered him like a brother. This made me question the goodness of the Christian God and my faith.
There was a moment when I came across Epicurus' trilemma, which presents the following dilemma attributed to this philosopher, saying:
If God is unable to prevent evil, then He is not all-powerful.
If God is not willing to prevent evil, then He is not all-good.
If God is willing and able to prevent evil, then why does evil exist?
This was also one of the reasons that made me question the goodness of the Christian God. And several other questions related to evil and suffering arose, such as these:
Why does God allow diseases like Tay-Sachs, which affect the neurons of some children, causing them to live short lives and experience horrible suffering? Why allow hepatic carcinoma that killed my friend, pancreatic cancer, lung cancer, and many other forms of cancer that often cause so much pain and terrible suffering in patients, many of whom are also young children? Why does leprosy exist, which, if untreated, rots the flesh and causes fingers to fall off? Why do such horrible congenital defects exist, such as epidermodysplasia verruciformis, cyclopia, ethmocephaly, craniopagus parasiticus, epidermolysis bullosa, anencephaly, progeria, spina bifida (and many other congenital diseases listed here https://medlineplus.gov/geneticsbirthdefects.html)? If you are sensitive to strong images, do not search for them on Google. The number of genetic and congenital errors that can occur is almost infinite. Why do mental and behavioral disorders exist, causing such horrible suffering that many people wish they had never been born, preferring to take their own lives, some even losing their sanity and discernment? Moreover, there are diseases like Alzheimer's, sickle cell anemia, autism, color blindness, diabetes, and countless other diseases that kill millions and millions of people, including babies and young children. Why does God allow natural disasters that have killed many people like these here ? Why do we have parasitic infections like malaria, dengue, Chagas disease, tetanus, lice, ticks, Loa loa, brain-eating amoebas, and many others? Why create a world with predation where animals cruelly kill each other to survive and where animals also suffer pain and agony? Why create a world where millions of women and small children were killed in Auschwitz, Treblinka, and other extermination camps, and also murdered by SS soldiers and the Einsatzgruppen during World War II? Why? Just because they were Jews? Why create a world where, besides the Holocaust, other events like the Stalinist Holodomor and other genocides and crimes against humanity have occurred and still occur? A world where women and children are mistreated, assaulted, exploited, used in sex trafficking, mutilated, raped, and killed in such cruel ways? A world where millions and millions of humans have been killed by wars, famines, and plagues? A world where misogyny, religious intolerance, homophobia, racism, chauvinism, fascism, rampant capitalism, extreme poverty, theft, and hunger exist, etc.? A world where people experience hatred, violence, indifference, hypocrisy, lies, and rancor? A world where some people are so selfish and full of themselves, proud, vain, mean, hateful, arrogant, abusive, and narcissistic?
And this is just what comes to mind at the moment.
I know that this is a question that has been asked and pondered by great philosophers and theologians over millennia, but despite that, I would like to hear the perspective of the Christians in this forum.
A long time ago, I read a post that @ViaCrucis (CryptoLuther) wrote in this forum several years ago quoting the philosopher Søren Kierkegaard, who said that 'to believe in God, a leap of faith must be made.' I'm sorry, but unfortunately, I can't find that post anymore. Although I found this very interesting, I can't make the leap to faith and embrace Christianity. I feel that doing so would be abandoning reason. Sometimes Christians say that God is beyond reason or that His plans are mysterious and incomprehensible to our limited minds. If God often doesn't want us to use reason and critical thinking to question His actions, then why did He make us thinking and rational beings? And why is He so mysterious and sinister? If we cannot even know God's plans, actions, and mysteries, then why assume that He really cares about us? I simply wish I could at least begin to understand in some logical way why the Christian God, with all the attributes He has, allows these terrible and tragic things to happen to us and to the rest of His creation that He claims to love so much.
Why does a God who is supposedly omniscient, omnipotent, and good allow all this suffering and pain that we see and experience in this world?
Thank you for reading until here.
Hello, I have known these forums for a few years, but I haven't accessed them for a long time and I noticed that things have changed around here.
I'm not sure if this is the right place to discuss this topic. If it's not, I apologize and ask the moderators to move it to the appropriate forum if this is not the right place for this kind of topic. I apologize in advance if I break any forum rules. And I also apologize for the long post below.
I consider myself a pantheist and a freethinker, but I really want to regain my former faith in Christianity. Yes, I was raised in a Christian family, my whole family is Christian, and I used to be a Christian as well. I started losing faith in the Christian God after I lost my friend to cancer several years ago. The ancient philosophical and theological problem of evil is perhaps one of the biggest and main challenges preventing me from returning to Christianity. When I was a Christian, I was taught in church that God is All-Powerful, All-Loving, Perfect, a God who hears our prayers and cares for us, an Omnipotent God. If this God really cares about us, why did He allow my friend to lose the battle against liver cancer? This disease made him wither and suffer in such a tragic and inhumane way, even after almost two years of treatments and many prayers, but none of that helped, he lost the battle and passed away. I considered him like a brother. This made me question the goodness of the Christian God and my faith.
There was a moment when I came across Epicurus' trilemma, which presents the following dilemma attributed to this philosopher, saying:
If God is unable to prevent evil, then He is not all-powerful.
If God is not willing to prevent evil, then He is not all-good.
If God is willing and able to prevent evil, then why does evil exist?
This was also one of the reasons that made me question the goodness of the Christian God. And several other questions related to evil and suffering arose, such as these:
Why does God allow diseases like Tay-Sachs, which affect the neurons of some children, causing them to live short lives and experience horrible suffering? Why allow hepatic carcinoma that killed my friend, pancreatic cancer, lung cancer, and many other forms of cancer that often cause so much pain and terrible suffering in patients, many of whom are also young children? Why does leprosy exist, which, if untreated, rots the flesh and causes fingers to fall off? Why do such horrible congenital defects exist, such as epidermodysplasia verruciformis, cyclopia, ethmocephaly, craniopagus parasiticus, epidermolysis bullosa, anencephaly, progeria, spina bifida (and many other congenital diseases listed here https://medlineplus.gov/geneticsbirthdefects.html)? If you are sensitive to strong images, do not search for them on Google. The number of genetic and congenital errors that can occur is almost infinite. Why do mental and behavioral disorders exist, causing such horrible suffering that many people wish they had never been born, preferring to take their own lives, some even losing their sanity and discernment? Moreover, there are diseases like Alzheimer's, sickle cell anemia, autism, color blindness, diabetes, and countless other diseases that kill millions and millions of people, including babies and young children. Why does God allow natural disasters that have killed many people like these here ? Why do we have parasitic infections like malaria, dengue, Chagas disease, tetanus, lice, ticks, Loa loa, brain-eating amoebas, and many others? Why create a world with predation where animals cruelly kill each other to survive and where animals also suffer pain and agony? Why create a world where millions of women and small children were killed in Auschwitz, Treblinka, and other extermination camps, and also murdered by SS soldiers and the Einsatzgruppen during World War II? Why? Just because they were Jews? Why create a world where, besides the Holocaust, other events like the Stalinist Holodomor and other genocides and crimes against humanity have occurred and still occur? A world where women and children are mistreated, assaulted, exploited, used in sex trafficking, mutilated, raped, and killed in such cruel ways? A world where millions and millions of humans have been killed by wars, famines, and plagues? A world where misogyny, religious intolerance, homophobia, racism, chauvinism, fascism, rampant capitalism, extreme poverty, theft, and hunger exist, etc.? A world where people experience hatred, violence, indifference, hypocrisy, lies, and rancor? A world where some people are so selfish and full of themselves, proud, vain, mean, hateful, arrogant, abusive, and narcissistic?
And this is just what comes to mind at the moment.
I know that this is a question that has been asked and pondered by great philosophers and theologians over millennia, but despite that, I would like to hear the perspective of the Christians in this forum.
A long time ago, I read a post that @ViaCrucis (CryptoLuther) wrote in this forum several years ago quoting the philosopher Søren Kierkegaard, who said that 'to believe in God, a leap of faith must be made.' I'm sorry, but unfortunately, I can't find that post anymore. Although I found this very interesting, I can't make the leap to faith and embrace Christianity. I feel that doing so would be abandoning reason. Sometimes Christians say that God is beyond reason or that His plans are mysterious and incomprehensible to our limited minds. If God often doesn't want us to use reason and critical thinking to question His actions, then why did He make us thinking and rational beings? And why is He so mysterious and sinister? If we cannot even know God's plans, actions, and mysteries, then why assume that He really cares about us? I simply wish I could at least begin to understand in some logical way why the Christian God, with all the attributes He has, allows these terrible and tragic things to happen to us and to the rest of His creation that He claims to love so much.
Why does a God who is supposedly omniscient, omnipotent, and good allow all this suffering and pain that we see and experience in this world?
Thank you for reading until here.
Only God the Father is the only One who has always been fully omniscient from the very beginning.
I've always wondered why all the non-believers and the athiests always stand a much, much greater chance of believing me than all of the many so-called believers and christians do.I never mentioned God being in the garden or Jesus's knowledge of the plan or made distinctions in His nature. Nor are the iterations of God you've described stated identically in the bible. You're welcome to cite the source if you wish including extracanonical texts. When they've highlighted different aspects of His person it's usually a name or spirit. With the understanding the source is the same.
We used to read the bible and pray in Hebrew. We didn't use translations in the synagogue. The divisions you've noted aren't found in the text nor is it taught.
~bella
I've always wondered why all the non-believers and the athiests always stand a much, much greater chance of believing me than all of the many so-called believers and christians do.
God Bless.
Hey, if this ever makes you, or any other people, dig deeper into the scriptures, then my job is done here, and that would be very, very great, and very, very awesome, etc, and nothing ever would or could make me any happier.Only man desires acceptance devoid of inquiry. He wants you to believe in him. Trust him. Listen to him and follow his lead. That's why so many are lost. But the Lord says try and test. He's not afraid of our scrutiny. He tells us to search the scriptures but man wants us to take him at his word.
This conversation reenforces the importance of rekindling those practices. Which was the greater purpose after all. This was merely a tool to bring it to my attention. That could only be discerned. No one could tell me.
~bella
Yes, I agree we all encounter suffering, and in some cases undeserved. But nowhere in the bible do we read that such suffering in any way contributes to the salvation of anybody else, or even of ourselves. I would say that for the Christian, suffering is part of that "tribulation" which Paul describes as a link in a wonderful chain:And yet we all encounter suffering every day. In many cases underserved innocent suffering. What do you make of that?
Is it meaningless?
Especially in the context of Jesus telling us to take up our crosses and follow him? To die to self?
Says YOU . and believe you me , I wont be a heeding this .Only God the Father is the only One who has always been fully omniscient from the very beginning.
And that was not God in the Garden with Adam and Eve, or in and throughout the OT leading up to Christ.
And Jesus didn't know absolutely all either. For example, He did not know the exact day or the hour, but he knew the events.
And there are many, many things about God in the OT that shows he was not always fully omniscient also.
God the Father knew that Adam and Eve were always going to disobey/fall/get kicked out with 100% absolute certainty, but God in the Creation, and God in the Garden with Adam and Eve, wasn't expecting them to disobey because He thought He had made everything perfect, etc. And He had up to that point, etc.
He knew, or He was told it was a possibility (The special creation of Adam and Eve falling/disobeying) and fully knew of the backup plan if they did (Jesus Christ), but He didn't know that He was going to have to absolutely go through with that absolutely, or go that route absolutely, until they did, etc.
God Bless.
Fact is someone claimed to have evidence that they
don't have. Equivocation on the word " faith" is irrelevant.
The answer is always the same, we have free will or freedom of choice It is up to each and every individual to make the right choices in life to become the person God created us to be. So we use our gifts, talents and abilities to bring Him praise, honor and glory.If God is unable to prevent evil, then He is not all-powerful.
Those 99% humans who don't have the evidence but know for a fact that black holes exist, while that's not faith. That is, they all know for a fact that black holes exist without evidence and don't need faith at the same time.
You can ask this question as many times as you want and the answer is going to always be the same. Because He gives us free will. We have the freedom to choose if we are going to love God or not. Animals do not have that choice. Before Adam and Eve we did not have that choice. They had the breath of life in them. nepheshWhy does God allow
Black holes have an event horizon. We know they exist.You have zero evidence on the existence of black holes
You never observed this. You put your faith in those who claimed that they observed! That remains your faith! Any graphic software can create this image! The photo itself is completely meaningless without a human testimony attached.
Yet again, the ridiculous equivocation gameYou never observed this. You put your faith in those who claimed that they observed! That remains your faith! Any graphic software can create this image! The photo itself is completely meaningless without a human testimony attached.
You never observed this. You put your faith in those who claimed that they observed! That remains your faith! Any graphic software can create this image! The photo itself is completely meaningless without a human testimony attached.
So- you figure that Faith in God, in " things unseen"You never observed this. You put your faith in those who claimed that they observed! That remains your faith! Any graphic software can create this image! The photo itself is completely meaningless without a human testimony attached.
Of course I have. I can look at the photos with my own eye. I just gave you a photo to look at. We do not see the black hole itself but the event horizon around where the light escapes. Just like day begins with light at the horizon. They call this sunrise. There are other things they can photograph that require special camera and we can not see them with our naked eye. But we see the effects. If you go to a concert it is all special effects that actually do not exist in the real world. That is why people go to concerts. Because they put on a show. If you think it is real or not.You never observed this.
While the Earth appears round when viewed from space, it’s not perfectly spherical like an orange. Instead, its true shape is closer to that of an ellipsoid. Earth’s rotation generates centrifugal forces, causing it to be wider at the equator than at the poles12. So, while it’s not exactly like an orange, it’s definitely not flat either!That the earth really is round. Like an orange. Really?
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