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Why does a good God allow pain and suffering to exist in this world?

Astrid

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I would be foolish to think that.
Not only foolish, but self righteous.
As I said, I think you are sincere. Many atheist are.


Not from me.


I think, you might be a little bit on the defensive.
Might I suggest you relax a bit. We aren't "out to get you".
I'd like to hear your suggestion though, if you care to share it.


Yes. Investigate everything with an open mind. That's always good.
The " most would " is still on point re
atheists lacking intellectualctual integrity.

I mention that problem in connection with
Yecs & fellow travellers, but I can, do,
illustrate it with live examples.

You didn't say what bearing " Darwin" has
on other peoples' integrity.

Regarding investigation, do you find
such as the 6 day creation and flood
to be historic or non factual story telling?

Oh and remote viewing of others' emotional
state is quite iffy.
Likewise, condescension in the form of
determining i am keyed uo, defensive, and paranoid
or in any other form like calling me " young lady" or
' Sweetie" doesn't say much for the one doing it.

It's best to avoid telling women they are getting
emotional. You may actually find that there's quite
a negative emotional reaction.

Internet randos don't have that power over me.

So just a friendly tip for you.
 
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CoreyD

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The " most would " is still on point re
atheists lacking intellectualctual integrity.

I mention that problem in connection with
Yecs & fellow travellers, but I can, do,
illustrate it with live examples.

You didn't say what bearing " Darwin" has
on other peoples' integrity.

Regarding investigation, do you find
such as the 6 day creation and flood
to be historic or non factual story telling?

Oh and remote viewing of others' emotional
state is quite iffy.
Likewise, condescension in the form of
determining i am keyed uo, defensive, and paranoid
or in any other form like calling me " young lady" or
' Sweetie" doesn't say much for the one doing it.

It's best to avoid telling women they are getting
emotional. You may actually find that there's quite
a negative emotional reaction.

Internet randos don't have that power over me.

So just a friendly tip for you.
Thanks for the friendly tip Es dear. :D Jus teasing.
The "6 day creation and flood" topics belong in another thread.
If there is a thread on these, that does not have xK replies, you can direct me to it, and I'll see if I can answer your questions there.
I suppose it won't hurt to mention, I don't believe in the 6 days each 24 hours long, idea. Please see The Correct Perspective of Genesis 1-3.
 
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Astrid

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Thanks for the friendly tip Es dear. :D Jus teasing.
The "6 day creation and flood" topics belong in another thread.
If there is a thread on these, that does not have xK replies, you can direct me to it, and I'll see if I can answer your questions there.
I suppose it won't hurt to mention, I don't believe in the 6 days each 24 hours long, idea. Please see The Correct Perspective of Genesis 1-3.
Everyone thinks they have the correct perspective.


That being, among other things, the which of why I don't believe any of it.
 
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CoreyD

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Everyone thinks they have the correct perspective.
I understand what you mean. You don't mean everyone, because there are millions of people who don't think they know, and are trying to find out, and willing to learn.
These are the millions I like, because pride seems to be the root of all evil, and ills.
Humility, on the other hand while it seems to be trodden upon, always seems to rise above eventually, and be seen by those willing to humble themselves.
I can say this is my observation, though, I understand that most haven't see this.

That being, among other things, the which of why I don't believe any of it.
I'm glad to hear that you don't think you have the right perspective.
That attitude along with investigating with an open mind, will lead you to the right perspective, eventually.
 
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Astrid

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I understand what you mean. You don't mean everyone, because there are millions of people who don't think they know, and are trying to find out, and willing to learn.
These are the millions I like, because pride seems to be the root of all evil, and ills.
Humility, on the other hand while it seems to be trodden upon, always seems to rise above eventually, and be seen by those willing to humble themselves.
I can say this is my observation, though, I understand that most haven't see this.


I'm glad to hear that you don't think you have the right perspective.
That attitude along with investigating with an open mind, will lead you to the right perspective, eventually.
Too clever by one half
 
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Paterfamilia

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In the case that the MGB God does exist, and the Bible is true:

There is evidence that this universe and the persons who live or have lived on it are only a part of God’s creation. We don’t know how big or small of a part that might be. It may be that “the heavens” dwarf the earth, just as the total physical universe dwarfs the earth. You will probably agree without hesitation that the earth is just a tiny speck in the vastness of the universe.

Consider – Ephesians 3:10

“10 His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms…”

Suppose that God has decreed to create free creatures, “as many as the grains of sand”, who exist timelessly in a space other than the physical universe, a heavenly realm, and He wants to fully describe Himself to them, so that they can enjoy the richest possible relationship with Him. These would include what we call angels, but not limited to angels. There is no limit to the types and numbers of persons that He might create.

The most important definitional characteristic that God might seek to showcase to them is His love. He would want them to see for themselves the magnitude of His love. Just how much does He love?

He would also want them to know His goodness, and His wisdom, etc. but how would He describe all these things to them (His goodness and His love, and His wisdom) in the context of a world where nothing contrary to His goodness and His love exist?

We might suppose that He would create a physical universe, a stage if you will, that would serve as a context within which a full description of goodness (and evil) could be demonstrated. At His command “Let there be light”, He might create a physical universe that contains a speck of a planet made of dirt, and lesser physical persons made of dirt also, but animated with an immortal soul, consciousness, intelligence, rationality, and free agency.

A temporary physical place, populated with temporarily physical persons. Of the infinite possible persons He could have created, He created one set of two persons and put them into a perfectly good context, knowing from the start that they would make a bad choice.

Ironically, the bad choice involves gaining the knowledge of good and evil. The very purpose of their temporary physical existence.

He knew from the start that He would use the resulting broken context as His own backdrop of revelation by temporarily entering into this temporary physical world as a man made of dirt, and make the ultimate sacrifice possible within this physical context. Thus every living person in heaven and on earth can witness for themselves just how deep and how wide is God’s love for those who choose to believe in Him.

Adam’s “defect” is imputed to every human born, so that we are all in the same boat of rebellion, and so that God can have mercy on any who ask for it.

God’s demonstration of Himself through the life and death of Jesus Christ as a temporary man, made of dust, serves as an eternal demonstration of peerless goodness. His death at the hands of persons that He created stands as an eternal cautionary description of just how bad evil can get.

That might be one reason that God would allow for pain and suffering.
 
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Brihaha

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If we humans actually deserved our redemption without pain and suffering, then there would be no need for redemption in the first place. And no need for suffering. But we do not deserve our grace and redemption. Therefore God uses our suffering to inspire change in us that lead us to salvation. Suffering is a blessing, grace from God to prevent us from a worse fate. And to prepare us for life in the hereafter.

In our mortal suffering, we are forced to confront our sinful nature. We understand that we are wretched creatures who can be forgiven for our sins only after we acknowledge them and repent. Our suffering in these mortal bodies now will likely make our happiness and eternal life in heaven all the more fulfilling.
 
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armchairscholar

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In the case that the MGB God does exist, and the Bible is true:

There is evidence that this universe and the persons who live or have lived on it are only a part of God’s creation. We don’t know how big or small of a part that might be. It may be that “the heavens” dwarf the earth, just as the total physical universe dwarfs the earth. You will probably agree without hesitation that the earth is just a tiny speck in the vastness of the universe.

Consider – Ephesians 3:10

“10 His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms…”

Suppose that God has decreed to create free creatures, “as many as the grains of sand”, who exist timelessly in a space other than the physical universe, a heavenly realm, and He wants to fully describe Himself to them, so that they can enjoy the richest possible relationship with Him. These would include what we call angels, but not limited to angels. There is no limit to the types and numbers of persons that He might create.

The most important definitional characteristic that God might seek to showcase to them is His love. He would want them to see for themselves the magnitude of His love. Just how much does He love?

He would also want them to know His goodness, and His wisdom, etc. but how would He describe all these things to them (His goodness and His love, and His wisdom) in the context of a world where nothing contrary to His goodness and His love exist?

We might suppose that He would create a physical universe, a stage if you will, that would serve as a context within which a full description of goodness (and evil) could be demonstrated. At His command “Let there be light”, He might create a physical universe that contains a speck of a planet made of dirt, and lesser physical persons made of dirt also, but animated with an immortal soul, consciousness, intelligence, rationality, and free agency.

A temporary physical place, populated with temporarily physical persons. Of the infinite possible persons He could have created, He created one set of two persons and put them into a perfectly good context, knowing from the start that they would make a bad choice.

Ironically, the bad choice involves gaining the knowledge of good and evil. The very purpose of their temporary physical existence.

He knew from the start that He would use the resulting broken context as His own backdrop of revelation by temporarily entering into this temporary physical world as a man made of dirt, and make the ultimate sacrifice possible within this physical context. Thus every living person in heaven and on earth can witness for themselves just how deep and how wide is God’s love for those who choose to believe in Him.

Adam’s “defect” is imputed to every human born, so that we are all in the same boat of rebellion, and so that God can have mercy on any who ask for it.

God’s demonstration of Himself through the life and death of Jesus Christ as a temporary man, made of dust, serves as an eternal demonstration of peerless goodness. His death at the hands of persons that He created stands as an eternal cautionary description of just how bad evil can get.

That might be one reason that God would allow for pain and suffering.
Beautifully written, thanks for taking the time to write this out
 
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David Lamb

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The Apostle Paul says: "In my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ's afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the Church."

Thus, humans have a share in salvific suffering.
I agree that the verse you quote is not an easy one to understand. However, the work of salvation is Jesus Christ's and His alone. Thus when He was dying on the cross, we read:

“So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, 'It is finished!' And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit.” (Joh 19:30 NKJV)

I understand that the word translated "finished" there means accomplished, completed, fulfilled. Whatever else Paul meant, he cannot have meant that Christ's sufferings were somehow incomplete.
 
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christian-surfer

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If god created everything then you have to give him credit for everything good also.

Through suffering, empathy and wisdom can be obtained. Mental suffering is much worse than physical suffering. On a higher level then using discipline through prayer and meditation we can condition the mind/spirit in attunement with god as expounded in the scriptures.

If one is free of anger, anxiety and depression then is he not free in his spirit? Freedom from anger can be obtained through forgiveness. If one sees god as evil then what is the benefit here? Would he become angry at god … but god created all things, god has created the mountains, forests, trees, oceans, and life. Should we be angry because of misfortunes when we ignore all the gifts we had been given. Being angry at god is self defeating just as being angry at anything is self defeating if you hold onto that anger. Being angry at god can accomplish nothing
 
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christian-surfer

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I also believe that prayer and meditation is beneficial. Perhaps some science has also confirmed that. If one views god as evil then presumably he is going to refrain from prayer or meditation. It is true that Buddhism however is somewhat atheistic even though Buddhism promotes a kind of meditation , but according to the Hindu view, Buddha never made a statement that there is no god in the way that a western atheist would . When asked about god, Buddha remained silent. According to eastern scriptures also, communal worship is a type of yoga practice
 
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Astrid

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I also believe that prayer and meditation is beneficial. Perhaps some science has also confirmed that. If one views god as evil then presumably he is going to refrain from prayer or meditation. It is true that Buddhism however is somewhat atheistic even though Buddhism promotes a kind of meditation , but according to the Hindu view, Buddha never made a statement that there is no god in the way that a western atheist would . When asked about god, Buddha remained silent. According to eastern scriptures also, communal worship is a type of yoga practice
Is it not so that according to Christian
philosophy all was perfect, and good
prior to the " fall"?

And after, there's death, pain, animals eating
eachother, typhoons, every sort of disease,
all all all is corrupted?

God is all good but everything he made is bad?
 
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Akita Suggagaki

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I agree that the verse you quote is not an easy one to understand. However, the work of salvation is Jesus Christ's and His alone. Thus when He was dying on the cross, we read:

“So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, 'It is finished!' And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit.” (Joh 19:30 NKJV)

I understand that the word translated "finished" there means accomplished, completed, fulfilled. Whatever else Paul meant, he cannot have meant that Christ's sufferings were somehow incomplete.
You propose that Paul did not mean exactly what he said.
It does not fit your understanding of scripture because you want to force a consistency with your interpretation of John 19:30.
That is an approach to scripture that I do not share.
 
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David Lamb

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You propose that Paul did not mean exactly what he said.
It does not fit your understanding of scripture because you want to force a consistency with your interpretation of John 19:30.
That is an approach to scripture that I do not share.
I do not intend to misrepresent Scripture. If we find one passage that is hard to understand, we compare it with what other passages say on the same subject. I just do not see the bible teaching that mere humans can suffer in a salvific manner as Christ did. It is not a matter of just taking John 19:30. Peter wrote:

“For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit,” (1Pe 3:18 NKJV)

In the Old Testament, Isaiah wrote:

“But He [was] wounded for our transgressions, [He was] bruised for our iniquities; The chastisement for our peace [was] upon Him, And by His stripes we are healed.” (Isa 53:5 NKJV)

There are many more examples. None suggest that anyone else could suffer in a salvific way.
 
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Akita Suggagaki

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None suggest that anyone else could suffer in a salvific way.
And yet we all encounter suffering every day. In many cases underserved innocent suffering. What do you make of that?
Is it meaningless?

Especially in the context of Jesus telling us to take up our crosses and follow him? To die to self?

Although this is a Catholic document, I think it has some profound and valuable reflection on human suffering:

"In the Cross of Christ not only is the Redemption accomplished through suffering, but also human suffering itself has been redeemed,. Christ, - without any fault of his own - took on himself "the total evil of sin".

" If one becomes a sharer in the sufferings of Christ, this happens because Christ has opened his suffering to man, because he himself in his redemptive suffering has become, in a certain sense, a sharer in all human sufferings. Man, discovering through faith the redemptive suffering of Christ, also discovers in it his own sufferings; he rediscovers them, through faith, enriched with a new content and new meaning."

 
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Hawkins

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In a nutshell, the question is why should a filtration system must dirty. It is to secure the cleanness of the aquarium. Heaven is the aquarium to be built while earth acts as its filtration system.

That being said. By Satan's free will and his capability, he is allowed to turn this world into a tragic world.

Isaiah 14:17
who made the world like a desert and overthrew its cities, who would not let his prisoners go home?

Satan or anyone like him will be stopped from entering the eternity we call Heaven.

God's only job here is to save His sheep, bring them to Heaven and wipe their tears.
 
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christian-surfer

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Is it not so that according to Christian
philosophy all was perfect, and good
prior to the " fall"?

And after, there's death, pain, animals eating
eachother, typhoons, every sort of disease,
all all all is corrupted?

God is all good but everything he made is bad?

Genesis is not always an easy topic. I have sometimes liked to use the beginning part of Genesis as a meditation. It would appear that Jewish mystics believe that was the original purpose. In general Christians believe we live in a fallen world. Certainly you can see that the world has many problems. I tend to try to avoid debates about these things. Generally you can say that god created satan but not for you to follow. Evil has some purpose in the world , sometimes it may seem a little beyond comprehension. If someone says god is evil , I can not agree because god have you your life and created everything good. You can complain to god if it is a sincere prayer from the heart as the psalms clearly allude to but arguing or rationalizing these things too a certain point is futile and reaches the point where rationality has limits.

Perhaps these same concepts are echoed to some degree in goddess Kali in the east or Tibetan wrathful deities. Some of that seems abstract and metaphorical as well and are further challenging topics. Who is the god Shiva ? Shiva the destroyer, Brahma the creator, Vishnu the maintainer. That’s what they say, it sounds simple but those things also seem to have a lot of layers of complex attributes also. It’s sounds like however god creates, god maintains, god destroys. The lord giveth and the lord taketh away. It’s something to be mindful of and pray about.

Isaiah 45:7

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.
 
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Astrid

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Genesis is not always an easy topic. I have sometimes liked to use the beginning part of Genesis as a meditation. It would appear that Jewish mystics believe that was the original purpose. In general Christians believe we live in a fallen world. Certainly you can see that the world has many problems. I tend to try to avoid debates about these things. Generally you can say that god created satan but not for you to follow. Evil has some purpose in the world , sometimes it may seem a little beyond comprehension. If someone says god is evil , I can not agree because god have you your life and created everything good. You can complain to god if it is a sincere prayer from the heart as the psalms clearly allude to but arguing or rationalizing these things too a certain point is futile and reaches the point where rationality has limits.

Perhaps these same concepts are echoed to some degree in goddess Kali in the east or Tibetan wrathful deities. Some of that seems abstract and metaphorical as well and are further challenging topics. Who is the god Shiva ? Shiva the destroyer, Brahma the creator, Vishnu the maintainer. That’s what they say, it sounds simple but those things also seem to have a lot of layers of complex attributes also. It’s sounds like however god creates, god maintains, god destroys. The lord giveth and the lord taketh away. It’s something to be mindful of and pray about.

Isaiah 45:7

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.
What's hard to understand in Genesis is only
what people concoct for themselves.

That such stories exist throughout all cultures
is is of some interest.
The content, whether is about Lono in Hawaii,
native American myths, the role of dragons in
China, or Genesis really doesn't interest me.

There are no dragons, and there was no flood.
Going on about it is vanity and vexation.
Why thats so hard to grasp, you tell me..


"God is evil" makes no sense to one who
doesn't think there's anything there to be good or bad.

I just commented on the particularly weird and dissonant
belief that god is all good but everything he made is bad,
( AND blaming the victims).
 
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