Why does a good God allow pain and suffering to exist in this world?

[Astrid]

In the case that the MGB God does exist, and the Bible is true:

There is evidence that this universe and the persons who live or have lived on it are only a part of God’s creation. We don’t know how big or small of a part that might be. It may be that “the heavens” dwarf the earth, just as the total physical universe dwarfs the earth. You will probably agree without hesitation that the earth is just a tiny speck in the vastness of the universe.

Consider – Ephesians 3:10

“10 His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms…”

Suppose that God has decreed to create free creatures, “as many as the grains of sand”, who exist timelessly in a space other than the physical universe, a heavenly realm, and He wants to fully describe Himself to them, so that they can enjoy the richest possible relationship with Him. These would include what we call angels, but not limited to angels. There is no limit to the types and numbers of persons that He might create.

The most important definitional characteristic that God might seek to showcase to them is His love. He would want them to see for themselves the magnitude of His love. Just how much does He love?

He would also want them to know His goodness, and His wisdom, etc. but how would He describe all these things to them (His goodness and His love, and His wisdom) in the context of a world where nothing contrary to His goodness and His love exist?

We might suppose that He would create a physical universe, a stage if you will, that would serve as a context within which a full description of goodness (and evil) could be demonstrated. At His command “Let there be light”, He might create a physical universe that contains a speck of a planet made of dirt, and lesser physical persons made of dirt also, but animated with an immortal soul, consciousness, intelligence, rationality, and free agency.

A temporary physical place, populated with temporarily physical persons. Of the infinite possible persons He could have created, He created one set of two persons and put them into a perfectly good context, knowing from the start that they would make a bad choice.

Ironically, the bad choice involves gaining the knowledge of good and evil. The very purpose of their temporary physical existence.

He knew from the start that He would use the resulting broken context as His own backdrop of revelation by temporarily entering into this temporary physical world as a man made of dirt, and make the ultimate sacrifice possible within this physical context. Thus every living person in heaven and on earth can witness for themselves just how deep and how wide is God’s love for those who choose to believe in Him.

Adam’s “defect” is imputed to every human born, so that we are all in the same boat of rebellion, and so that God can have mercy on any who ask for it.

God’s demonstration of Himself through the life and death of Jesus Christ as a temporary man, made of dust, serves as an eternal demonstration of peerless goodness. His death at the hands of persons that He created stands as an eternal cautionary description of just how bad evil can get.

That might be one reason that God would allow for pain and suffering.

I'd like to see that evidence.

 

[frienden thalord]

I agree that the verse you quote is not an easy one to understand. However, the work of salvation is Jesus Christ's and His alone. Thus when He was dying on the cross, we read:

“So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, 'It is finished!' And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit.” (Joh 19:30 NKJV)

I understand that the word translated "finished" there means accomplished, completed, fulfilled. Whatever else Paul meant, he cannot have meant that Christ's sufferings were somehow incomplete.

we , who are believers , simply partake of His sufferings but we also partake of His consolations
and thus also are able to console other believers when they too suffer by that same consoling .
If we suffer with him we shall also reign with him .
Oh YES , JESUS DID ALL that was necessary . When HE said IT is finished , HE had accomplished
all that had been written , all that was needed .
Now it is time and it is high time The true beleivers point to HE and HE alone
for the only means to attain salvation .
As moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness so that all who looked upon that brasen serpent
would not perish
SOO too was JESUS LIFTED UP so that all who do BELIEVE IN HIM
take note reader and all that it says WHO DO BELIEVE IN HIM , shall not perish
but have eternal life .
Time again to preach the one true gospel of Jesus the CHRIST .
Ensuring that we offer up no other false hope by means of a false love to anyone .
But rather REMINDING all of the absolute dire necessity to BELIEVE on JESUS THE GLORIOUS RISEN CHRIST .
To the trenches one and all for these be the final hours upon earth wherein all things written are quickly coming to pass .
There is only one hope , one faith , one LORD , One GOD , CHRIST JESUS by which a man can be saved .
Pointing to anything else will only grave . Let none who name the name of CHRIST JESUS
depart from the ONLY gospel that can save and turn rather to another gospel which will NOT save .
We must never preach damnation under the guise that it is love to anyone .
Any love that denies JESUS the CHRIST , the need to Believe on HIM , well it aint no love of GOD and thus it wont be saving squat .

 

[frienden thalord]

I'd like to see that evidence.

Abraham looked for a city whose builder and maker is GOD .
Things not seen and yet hoped for , that is faith .
But there is a way that seems right unto a man and yet the end is death .
Many must have EYE proof in order to believe .
To them seeing is believing .
Yet even when with their eyes they do behold , even then they will not see the evidence and rather
will convince themselves this is not a forest it is but billions of trees .
WHY is that you might wonder .
Because the carnal mind cannot recieve the things of GOD my dear dear friend .
And through carnal knowledge and much learning of said knowledge
one cannot attain the TRUTH o GOD but at best will be ever learning and yet still unable to come to the truth .
May that be a good reminder that what is freely given in CHRIST JESUS
by the grace of GOD wherein one can attain
Is the gift of GOD . I have watched many wise men of this world
on their search for what they desire to know as Truth . And the more they learn
the more holes appear in their wisdom . What man cannot attain
JESUS THE CHRIST did attain for us . So that all who do believe in HIM
will become a fool to this worlds knowledge and rather learn and grow in the wisdom and knowledge of GOD .
OH there is much we do not know my friend . But in CHRIST we can know what we NEED to know in this life .

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

Jesus spoke of his coming crucifixion as his glorification.

John 12
23 Jesus replied, “The hour has come for the Son of Man to be glorified. 24 Very truly I tell you, unless a kernel of wheat falls to the ground and dies, it remains only a single seed. But if it dies, it produces many seeds. 25 Anyone who loves their life will lose it, while anyone who hates their life in this world will keep it for eternal life. 26 Whoever serves me must follow me; and where I am, my servant also will be. My Father will honor the one who serves me.

I think we have it all wrong and backward. Pain and suffering may be our greatest opportunities.

 

[frienden thalord]

Through carnal knowledge and wisdom no man can attain unto the truth of GOD .
it is as though a man took a long journey
and along the road came unto many a great scholar of this world and of its wisdom .
HE asked them , dear sirs i have come a long way on my journey
in order to find the great forest of truth .
To which each scholar tells him much knowledge and much wisdom .
In time he comes and sees this great and mighty forest .
And he and his scholars begin to debate amongst themselves
as to whether it is a forest or not .
Along comes a believer in Christ and says to them , alas dear men
what is it which you debate amongst yourselves .
And they said we have come on a long journey to find a great forest .
To which the believer in Christ says , WELL behold men , HERE IS THIS Great and mighty forest .
To which the men reply , hold up , not so fast . This cannot be a forest .
To which the saint replies oh but it is a forest .
To which they reply this is no way is a forest , its but billions of trees .
To which the saint replies what is a forest .
to which the men reply well its many trees .
To which the saint replies , look again .
to which they reply we have looked already , and we tell you , you dumb bible lamb
that this is not forest it is but billions of trees .
the moral of the story , The carnal mind will never see if even evidence is provided . it will always
see the TRUTH as though in no way can it be THE TRUTH .

 

[Neogaia777]

I believe that the Garden of Eden was a specially created separate place from what was going on in the rest of the world at the time. And that it was made well, well into the sixth day when it was made at the time. And that we are still in that sixth day now, and always have been still even now ever since the first land animals first appeared way, way back in geologic time, etc. But that the Garden of Eden was the place of some very specially created beings, or species or race, but that began well, well, already way far already into the sixth day of God's idea or concept of time, etc.

Things were different there for a time, and no creature ever even harmed another one for a time, etc. It was lost when Adam and Eve disobeyed the one and only rule there at the time, etc. And after that they were expelled from it and were sent out to live in the rest of the world like it was after that for an as of yet not fully yet known or fully defined period of time, etc.

They would have descendants in that region after being cast out of Eden who would eventually run into other beings who had been evolving in the earth up to that time, and would eventually start inter-breeding with them and having descendants with them who would then be mixed descendants from them both at that time.

God supposedly flooded the region when this started happening at that time. Of whom he would only leave very, very few alive from that original race or species at the time, etc.

Tell you more later.

God Bless.

 

[Neogaia777]

I believe that the Garden of Eden was a specially created separate place from what was going on in the rest of the world at the time. And that it was made well, well into the sixth day when it was made at the time. And that we are still in that sixth day now, and always have been still even now ever since the first land animals first appeared way, way back in geologic time, etc. But that the Garden of Eden was the place of some very specially created beings, or species or race, but that began well, well, already way far already into the sixth day of God's idea or concept of time, etc.

Things were different there for a time, and no creature ever even harmed another one for a time, etc. It was lost when Adam and Eve disobeyed the one and only rule there at the time, etc. And after that they were expelled from it and were sent out to live in the rest of the world like it was after that for an as of yet not fully yet known or fully defined period of time, etc.

They would have descendants in that region after being cast out of Eden who would eventually run into other beings who had been evolving in the earth up to that time, and would eventually start inter-breeding with them and having descendants with them who would then be mixed descendants from them both at that time.

God supposedly flooded the region when this started happening at that time. Of whom he would only leave very, very few alive from that original race or species at the time, etc.

Tell you more later.

God Bless.

That original race or species was not supposed to fall/disobey, and was meant to always remain separate/pure from the more evolved species/race, and eventually grow/branch out to transform the rest of the earth into being like this Garden paradise, and rule over all of the rest of them as kings and priests until the end of all time, etc.

God Bless.

 

[Neogaia777]

That original race or species was not supposed to fall/disobey, and was meant to always remain separate/pure from the more evolved species/race, and eventually grow/branch out to transform the rest of the earth into being like this Garden paradise, and rule over all of the rest of them as kings and priests until the end of all time, etc.

God Bless.

Or they were supposed to transform the rest of the world into a place where suffering and sorrow and evil and death and pain, would no longer exist, etc.

God Bless.

 

[Astrid]

Abraham looked for a city whose builder and maker is GOD .
Things not seen and yet hoped for , that is faith .
But there is a way that seems right unto a man and yet the end is death .
Many must have EYE proof in order to believe .
To them seeing is believing .
Yet even when with their eyes they do behold , even then they will not see the evidence and rather
will convince themselves this is not a forest it is but billions of trees .
WHY is that you might wonder .
Because the carnal mind cannot recieve the things of GOD my dear dear friend .
And through carnal knowledge and much learning of said knowledge
one cannot attain the TRUTH o GOD but at best will be ever learning and yet still unable to come to the truth .
May that be a good reminder that what is freely given in CHRIST JESUS
by the grace of GOD wherein one can attain
Is the gift of GOD . I have watched many wise men of this world
on their search for what they desire to know as Truth . And the more they learn
the more holes appear in their wisdom . What man cannot attain
JESUS THE CHRIST did attain for us . So that all who do believe in HIM
will become a fool to this worlds knowledge and rather learn and grow in the wisdom and knowledge of GOD .
OH there is much we do not know my friend . But in CHRIST we can know what we NEED to know in this life .

I've heard preaching so sorry but I didn't
read yours.

Someone said there evidence. I asked what
is. If w regard to whether there even is evidence,
Christians wish to have a "is so" v. "Is not"
catfight, let them.

I just wondered what is one side's evidence.

If it happens to be real that's of profound significance to
everyone on esrth.

 

[Neogaia777]

Or they were supposed to transform the rest of the world into a place where suffering and sorrow and evil and death and pain, would no longer exist, etc.

God Bless.

They were also supposed to establish their own nation, that would always be before, or would always be more far greater, or more far advanced/superior, to all other nations, that the other species/races would establish or create after that, or during their time of having their own nation, that would always be meant to be ruling over all other nations, etc.

But not all went according to plan, so plans had to change sometimes also, but with their changing, would still be trying to stick to the original plan, etc.

God Bless.

 

[Hawkins]

I've heard preaching so sorry but I didn't
read yours.

Someone said there evidence. I asked what
is. If w regard to whether there even is evidence,
Christians wish to have a "is so" v. "Is not"
catfight, let them.

I just wondered what is one side's evidence.

If it happens to be real that's of profound significance to
everyone on esrth.

What I can tell is, you are working against the actual reality.

I don't have the evidence whether Trump or Biden actually won the majority votes. I have faith that Biden is a legit president.

Can I get to the evidence whether Trump or Biden actually had the majority votes? NO, it's out of human capability to provide such evidence down to the level of individuality. "Evidence" in this case is just an ideal if you insist on demanding. In this very reality, evidence never exists at the level of individuality. All humans can rely on is, they have faith that a fact is evidenced (mostly likely by an eyewitness).

Even science. Science at the level of individuality is just a Faith. It is a faith we put in the eyewitnesses whom we call them the scientists. We have faith that a scientific truth is evidenced by the scientists.

In the case of a piece of history then, we put faith (or not) in that the historian (who was long dead) writing it was not mistaken.

Did you have any eggs before the age of 2? We need faith in your mom's testimony. If it's true (or not), faith remains the only way for us to get to it, through what is said by your mom.

 

[frienden thalord]

I've heard preaching so sorry but I didn't
read yours.

Someone said there evidence. I asked what
is. If w regard to whether there even is evidence,
Christians wish to have a "is so" v. "Is not"
catfight, let them.

I just wondered what is one side's evidence.

If it happens to be real that's of profound significance to
everyone on esrth.

Provide evidence for evolution . Provide evidence that something can proceed from nothing at all .
Happy hunting my dear friend on that one . but lets hear the evidence shall we my friend .
You may present your case .
PS i hear preaching all the time from evolutionists and all camps .
Its just called preaching when one side , specially a certain side presents simple truth .
If all you can say to my words is its preaching
then i can say the same to your words . Both sides are presenting their case . Me , i do so from the bible
BUT HEY that is called preaching .
You do so from , see the point yet .

 

[frienden thalord]

the problem is that while evolutionists present their case from the books and minds of men
WHEN a christain presents his case from the BIBLE , THAT BE called preaching .
I shall present my case from the bible , and evolustionists may present their case from their own books .
the problem with the church , AND THIS IS WHY IT LOSES
is because it tries to prove its point but does so through the logic of men . GONNA LOSE every time on that one .
Let each present their case , HOWEVER THEY DEEM FIT TO DO SO . dont be scared my friends .
I know WHOM and what i beleive . AND That is what i shall present . dont be afraid my evolutoinists
nor try and get me to prove my points through your wisdom . I will do as i do to present the truth
And you do what you need to do to present what you see as truth .

 

[bèlla]

But not all went according to plan, so plans had to change sometimes also, but with their changing, would still be trying to stick to the original plan, etc.

God Bless.

If that is correct then God isn't all knowing which isn't the case. He knew man would fall before He formed him. Much like He knew they'd disobey and be forced to leave. The garden was never the plan. Jesus was. It was instrumental in putting it in motion.

~bella

 

[Astrid]

the problem is that while evolutionists present their case from the books and minds of men
WHEN a christain presents his case from the BIBLE , THAT BE called preaching .
I shall present my case from the bible , and evolustionists may present their case from their own books .
the problem with the church , AND THIS IS WHY IT LOSES
is because it tries to prove its point but does so through the logic of men . GONNA LOSE every time on that one .
Let each present their case , HOWEVER THEY DEEM FIT TO DO SO . dont be scared my friends .
I know WHOM and what i beleive . AND That is what i shall present . dont be afraid my evolutoinists
nor try and get me to prove my points through your wisdom . I will do as i do to present the truth
And you do what you need to do to present what you see as truth .

What lady could possibly resist such a delightful invitation.

 

[Astrid]

What I can tell is, you are working against the actual reality.

I don't have the evidence whether Trump or Biden actually won the majority votes. I have faith that Biden is a legit president.

Can I get to the evidence whether Trump or Biden actually had the majority votes? NO, it's out of human capability to provide such evidence down to the level of individuality. "Evidence" in this case is just an ideal if you insist on demanding. In this very reality, evidence never exists at the level of individuality. All humans can rely on is, they have faith that a fact is evidenced (mostly likely by an eyewitness).

Even science. Science at the level of individuality is just a Faith. It is a faith we put in the eyewitnesses whom we call them the scientists. We have faith that a scientific truth is evidenced by the scientists.

In the case of a piece of history then, we put faith (or not) in that the historian (who was long dead) writing it was not mistaken.

Did you have any eggs before the age of 2? We need faith in your mom's testimony. If it's true (or not), faith remains the only way for us to get to it, through what is said by your mom.

Fact is someone claimed to have evidence that they
don't have. Equivocation on the word " faith" is irrelevant.

 

[frienden thalord]

What lady could possibly resist such a delightful invitation.

very lovely response my dear astrid . Any man or any woman
who believes what they beleive to be true
has the right to defend that truth and not rather be told
that using the bible or concepts from the bible is either preaching and or not allowed .
YOU gots the right to use every ounce of knowledge you attained through evolution , including every book you read .
AS do i the right to use the bible to defend my position .
You see i aint asking ya to use the bible or to not use books on evolution to not defend you stance .
You do as you think you gots to do . But as for me , I will be using the bible to defend me stance . lets not call or consider
it preaching either .

 

[frienden thalord]

Fact is someone claimed to have evidence that they
don't have. Equivocation on the word " faith" is irrelevant.

faith to you IS irrelevant . as is evolution is to me .
However you present your case with your methods beliefs
i present my case with my methods and beliefs
And let the cards fall where they do .
You see i am not ignorant enough to beleive i can make YOU believe anything .
But i can present the truth and pray you do hear it .
I shall use biblical truth
you my dear sister may use what you like .

 

[frienden thalord]

Fact is someone claimed to have evidence that they
don't have. Equivocation on the word " faith" is irrelevant.

have you noticed something my dear friend .
Even wise evolutoinists know its all theory and best guess
and yet ITS TAUGHT IN SCHOOLS as though its absolute truth .
Even they , even scientists know they dont really KNOW .
If one stands to reason on the bible however its prove it .
WELL i then have the same response to any evolutonist . PROVE IT .
cause the last time i checked were any of us even there in the beginning to even really KNOW
Evolution cannot be proved or even known to be true .
SO , prove to me the big bang
or prove to me evolution . When even the evolutionists knew it was all theory themselves .

 

[Neogaia777]

If that is correct then God isn't all knowing which isn't the case. He knew man would fall before He formed him. Much like He knew they'd disobey and be forced to leave. The garden was never the plan. Jesus was. It was instrumental in putting it in motion.

~bella

Only God the Father is the only One who has always been fully omniscient from the very beginning.

And that was not God in the Garden with Adam and Eve, or in and throughout the OT leading up to Christ.

And Jesus didn't know absolutely all either. For example, He did not know the exact day or the hour, but he knew the events.

And there are many, many things about God in the OT that shows he was not always fully omniscient also.

God the Father knew that Adam and Eve were always going to disobey/fall/get kicked out with 100% absolute certainty, but God in the Creation, and God in the Garden with Adam and Eve, wasn't expecting them to disobey because He thought He had made everything perfect, etc. And He had up to that point, etc.

He knew, or He was told it was a possibility (The special creation of Adam and Eve falling/disobeying) and fully knew of the backup plan if they did (Jesus Christ), but He didn't know that He was going to have to absolutely go through with that absolutely, or go that route absolutely, until they did, etc.

God Bless.