Why do you believe in the trinity when God and his word is simple
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A discussion does not consist of someone making childish challenges, "Neener, neener, neener I know something you don't know. You can't answer," If you wish to discuss a topic e.g. "the foundation of the new covenant, without which there is no new covenant." Post your views here and I will gladly discuss them and very likely prove you wrong.
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In other words you make false accusations you can't back up. There is a search function at the top right of this page, you can search for any post in a matter of seconds.
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Wrong! All the other heterodox groups make the same claim, JW, LDS, SDA, UU, OP, UPCI, INC, WWCG, et al.
φάσκοντες εἶναι σοφοὶ ἐμωράνθησαν,
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stuart lawrence
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Proof indeed that knowing four languages, being able to fly, reading concordances, lexicons, and scholars and theologians cannot help anyone understand the most important things I the christian faith.
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Hi,
In experience, maybe everyone here is familiar with verbal abuse.
One form of the many forms of verbal abuse, I'd discounting, another is changing the subject and a third is not answering questions.
Verbal abuse can and is done, Silently.
My question, about how Jesus of Psalms 2, is less than His Dad, in any way, has not been answered, when that answer is important.
Not answering important questions, is a form of verbal abuse.
Now, read this if you want to: http://verbalabusejournals.com/about-abuse/what-is-verbal-abuse/types-of-verbal-abuse/
It is what seems to be going in here.
The Jesus, of Psalms 2, The Jesus of This day I Have Begotten You, That Jesus, the Question has been asked.
How is Jesus in any way lesser than His Father, in Psalms 2?
That and almost all questions asked, are handled in a way, very consistent with that chart alone, in that reference.
Oh yes. I have more than twenty years of experience, in this area.
Answer the questions, else, you are being abusive.
Discounting is abusive.
Shifting is abusive.
Look it up.
LOVE,
In experience, maybe everyone here is familiar with verbal abuse.
One form of the many forms of verbal abuse, I'd discounting, another is changing the subject and a third is not answering questions.
Verbal abuse can and is done, Silently.
My question, about how Jesus of Psalms 2, is less than His Dad, in any way, has not been answered, when that answer is important.
Not answering important questions, is a form of verbal abuse.
Now, read this if you want to: http://verbalabusejournals.com/about-abuse/what-is-verbal-abuse/types-of-verbal-abuse/
It is what seems to be going in here.
The Jesus, of Psalms 2, The Jesus of This day I Have Begotten You, That Jesus, the Question has been asked.
How is Jesus in any way lesser than His Father, in Psalms 2?
That and almost all questions asked, are handled in a way, very consistent with that chart alone, in that reference.
Oh yes. I have more than twenty years of experience, in this area.
Answer the questions, else, you are being abusive.
Discounting is abusive.
Shifting is abusive.
Look it up.
LOVE,
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stuart lawrence
Well-Known Member
You wouldn't prove me wrong. Have a read of Jeremiah 31, heb 8&10. Then tell me the foundation on which the christian faith stands. I've helped you now, shouldn't be too difficult
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stuart lawrence
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This is the covenant I will make with them after that time declares the Lord
I will write my laws in their minds
And place them on their hearts
Then he adds
Their sins and lawless deeds I will remember no more.
And where these have been forgiven, sacrifice for sin I no longer necessary
Heb10:16-18
It is not possible for a person to be under the new covenant/ for their sins and lawless deeds to be remembered no more( Christ died for their sins) unless Gods laws he desires you to keep have been written on your mind and placed on your heart.
If you think you can prove that is wrong, go ahead and try.
The important question is. Why is that so?
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Hi
I am leaving again, for awhile.
I do think this thread is staying open merely on forms of verbal abuse:
http://verbalabusejournals.com/about-abuse/what-is-verbal-abuse/types-of-verbal-abuse/ , as, All references to The Trinitarian God, are handled here using one of the methods in the above article.
LOVE,
I am leaving again, for awhile.
I do think this thread is staying open merely on forms of verbal abuse:
http://verbalabusejournals.com/about-abuse/what-is-verbal-abuse/types-of-verbal-abuse/ , as, All references to The Trinitarian God, are handled here using one of the methods in the above article.
LOVE,
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jerry kelso
Food For Thought
i'malllikeokwaitwhat,
1. You believe the trinity is convoluted and therefore not true. You also believe that if it takes a long time to explain something in the bible it cannot be true or cannot be from God.
2. You believe that one is rejecting God if they believe in the trinity and you were afraid of becoming an atheist if you believed or remained believing such a thing. You believe the trinity is a lie.
3. You say believing in Jesus as God is idolatry. You believe the doctrine is deception. You believe he didn't create the universe or humans. All his miracles was through God not because he was God.
4. There are things in the bible that have plain statements that can be understood immediately. There are other passages that have to be understood in the immediate context, book context and the whole of scripture context because God dealt with men in different ages in different ways that was unfolded in gradual revelation.
The trinity can be understood in what is called compound unity. The number one is in unity. Genesis 1:26 says let us make man in our image, after our likeness. Our is plural and the angels were created by God so it couldn't be talking about them.
In Hebrews 1:8: But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. God the father called Jesus the son God. Verse 9 says, Thou hast loved righteousness and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. God the father calls the son God again. Verse 10: And, Thou, Lord in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands. This verse has God the father saying that Jesus was the Lord who laid the foundations of the earth; and the heavens are the works of his hands.
5. It is not about how long it takes but it is about rightly dividing the word in its entirety and reconciling the scriptures together to harmonize and not contradict each other.
God the Father called Jesus the Son God and said he was to be worshipped. Man has been called a son of God just like the angels but never has been called God. With this being the truth you can't say that saying Jesus is God is idolatry or that it is stealing glory from God the father.
If I recall, God was never called the Father except in prophecies concerning the son who would come to die for the sins of the whole world. He was begotten in the plan of redemption in the past and not that he was the son literally in the past.
6. Who was Jesus in the past? Paul said in 1 Corinthians 10:4 that the spiritual rock was Christ. This is not literally Christ in the old testament as in the days of the Roman empire because he wasn't born in Moses day literally.
In John 6 Jesus said he was the bread of life in Moses day. This was another spiritual application which shows that the begotten of God was not pre-existently bodily as Christ but spiritually was connected to his earthly life and death and resurrection when the jews would be complete in salvation for the blood of bulls and goats were not sufficient enough to save.
Verse 38, Jesus says he came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. This shows that Jesus did exist before he was conceived of the Holy Spirit and birthed in Mary to become the God man.
Hebrews 2:16: For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. This shows that he had to identify with man and not angels and that he existed as God and not man or angels before he was begotten.
7. Hebrews 2:10 calls Christ the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. Jesus was the Lord God who was yahweh for Israel which was salvation for the jews. Isaiah 44:6; Thus saith the Lord the King of Israel, and his redeemer the Lord of hosts; I am the first and the last; and beside me there is no God.
Jesus the son was known as the redeemer of Israel and the King of Israel in the old testament and he is the captain of salvation as Jesus Christ the begotten son of God who is ever bit God as the father for God the father said he was in Hebrews 1.
8. The reason for the one God of Israel was to show that there was one true ultimate God over all creation and not like the pantheists of false gods that the gentiles served.
There is one body of Christ and God the father is not the body of Christ who died to redeem man and cannot be the redeemer of man in this sense; but Jesus can.
The Godhead works together in perfect unity to perform the plan of redemption. There is one body of Christ but many members. Jesus said he and God the father were one in unity and not in number. God made man for woman which is two and they should be as one. Jesus went back to be with the father and said he would sent the comforter which was the Spirit and he would lead them into all truth.
So the bible is full of compound unity. Does it mean that God the father cannot be unified in hisself? I believe that is true but the bible doesn't teach one God in number otherwise it would be a contradiction of the verses that say that God the father calls his son God and that he to be worshipped.
9. This doctrine is basically a christadelphian or arianism doctrine. It basically says that Jesus was human because he could not be God and man at the same time. This is not true when one understands the kenosis of Christ.
Also, it is believed that Christ is subordinate to God the father and inferior to his father. He is subordinate in the fact of the office or role and relationship as the begotten son in the plan of redemption. God being manifested in flesh could be the only royal blood that could save men from sin and not merely a man who could be born sinless in his life. Jesus had to be sinless to fulfill the law and be the sacrifice for salvation of which the blood of bulls and goats could not satisfy the penalty or cleanse the sins of man.
Christ was the mediator of the new covenant by his death and resurrection and was the perfect mediator being God yet laying aside his godly powers within himself and identify with man as becoming a man and through his sufferings having to learn things like a man and yet retain his part in redemptions plan through the will of the father as a son.
The son will give the kingdom back to his father so God will be all in all and this is talking about the Godhead, the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit, the three in one. God has order and he shows the order of how we are to conduct ourself with others in number and one as together in unity.
So to say that the trinity is a lie and is convoluted is a stretch.
10. The jewish leaders got mad at Jesus because he claimed to be the Son of God. So the son of God claim could not mean that he was just a son of God like an ordinary man or angel.
The subordination theory teaches inferiority more than unity. Can you defend your position by the scripture or just what an article says that sounds logical to you? Let me know. Jerry kelso
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Good stuff in the ten points, Jerry.
But this thread is too BITTER and HOSTILE to be in.
One of my posts was removed in a CLEAN UP -- and I don't even know what it said.
I am trying very hard to avoid any infraction or flaming -- I am returning from an involuntary "vacation" from CF
a thread in this TONE is an invitation to disaster
although some theological points are good...
I hope Katerina just left the THREAD,and not CF
But this thread is too BITTER and HOSTILE to be in.
One of my posts was removed in a CLEAN UP -- and I don't even know what it said.
I am trying very hard to avoid any infraction or flaming -- I am returning from an involuntary "vacation" from CF
a thread in this TONE is an invitation to disaster
although some theological points are good...
I hope Katerina just left the THREAD,and not CF
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Jerry, it seems that you are presenting a social theory of the Trinity, that God consists of three individual, unique personalities working in harmony. The oneness of God is that fact they work in perfect unison. This doctrine goes way back to the Cappadocia's and was and is very popular. The problem, however, is that it impresses many, including myself, as tritheism or polytheism. Three men working together in unity are still three men, for example.
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jerry kelso
Food For Thought
hoghead1,
1. I have no problem saying there is three members in the Godhead versus one with 3 manifestations.
2. The oneness is in unity and the one God was for the benefit of the one true God that Israel served versus all the false gods that the gentiles served. Those false gods were not unified together in creation of man and creation of the universe and the redemptive plan.
3. Romans says that those in the antediluvian period from Adam to Noah and the flood did not retain the true God in their memory and that is why they gave them over to a reprobate mind and worship and change the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds and fourfooted beasts and creeping things. Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lust of their own hearts to dishonor their own bodies between themselves who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. It goes onto lusts of men with men and women with women.
4. The point is that those people in the old testament were not ignorant of the true God who Israel served like most people give the perception of. Romans 1:20 says; For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations and their foolish heart was darkened.
Just because there are similarities in the fact of polytheism being more than one is not the whole context of the Godhead.
5. God said let us make man in our image which infers more than one person in the Godhead and though God is a spirit, it is not far fetched to think that he has a spirit body of superiority than his creation. The bible talks about God being able to physically see, and hear and speak etc. Now the other side of the argument is whether that is literal or anthropomorphisms and some other contexts and I believe in taking them into account and see what the bible literally says about it or has enough implications to take into consideration.
6. Last, God is not man but he believes in compound unity and that is why Jesus said he was one with the father. The son was on earth and the father was in heaven. When the son left the earth to go to heaven he sent the Holy Spirit to the earth. We are images of God in many ways but at the same time we cannot begin to compare with God because he is infinite and we are only finite.
7. You call it a social theory which I have proved by scriptures that prove compound unity so it cannot be a theory. You said your definition of social theory was three individual and unique personalities working in harmony. Now you can use things in history such as Cappadocia but does it harmonize with the word. The word was written way before Cappadocia. Now I don't know if you believe in oneness or christadelphian or what specific doctrine but feel free to express, and explain explicitly what you believe the bible says. Thanks Jerry kelso
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OK, I gather you are going on the social theory of the Trinity. I find that incompatible with the biblical emphasis on monotheism. However, the Bible is not a book on metaphysics, tells us very little about how God is build, for example. Hence, when Christ and the Spirit are mentioned, it is difficult for many to see how we have but one God. It could well be that God is actually a meta-personality or group mind arising out of all other personalities. It could also be that the Trinity is all a manifestation of one personality in the sense that the Father is also the Son and the Spirit. I find it interesting you spoke of God as having a physical dimension. The Bible attributes just about every body part to God, and that suggests the Hebrews thought of God as a physical entity. The way I picture God is that the universe is the body of God.
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Yes, I hope Katerinah1947 will return -- and we all discuss in peace -- and Lulav will not have to do anything drastic.
I really am trying to post peacefully -- I am just returning from a six-month VACATION from CF (non-voluntary vacation) and face medical issues which may soon preclude much activity here anyway...
spreading oil on the waters...
smooth sailing - all...
I really am trying to post peacefully -- I am just returning from a six-month VACATION from CF (non-voluntary vacation) and face medical issues which may soon preclude much activity here anyway...
spreading oil on the waters...
smooth sailing - all...
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stuart lawrence
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Jesus meant he was one with the father, of one accord, unity of belief, of one heart and mind John 17:20-23 explains that:
I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one AS(AS) AS we are one.
I in them and you I me. May they be brought to COMPLETE UNITY john 17:22&23
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