Why do you believe in the evolution theory?

[AV1611VET]

You paint your god as a hopeless buffoon ...

Oh, my!

I must have mentioned He walked on water!?

Or He created the universe in six days!?

 

[AV1611VET]

I didn't see the word "unbelievers" in that verse.

Neither did I.

Could you explain how you know that the "things not seen" only applies to unbelievers and not to believers as the examples in the rest of the chapter seem to indicate?

Sure.

Let's use the example that chapter gives, just two verses later, shall we?

Hebrews 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

You may have overlooked it though.

And I understand, since it QEDs my point.

 

[JacksBratt]

The Albigensian Crusade, perhaps.

You can never force someone to change their belief......


If your belief has no substance, you can get people to deny it if threatened.

 

[JacksBratt]

Jeremiah did not understand physiology. My heart is a pump. It is my mind that searches for truth. It is my mind that reasons. It is my mind that empathizes with the weak, the helpless, and the downtrodden.

Really? That's your response? I expect more from you than using a literal definition to back your rebuttal....

I guess you have never heard anyone say "what does your heart tell you" or "I love you with all my heart", or "what do you feel in your heart of hearts"

Very weak...

 

[DerelictJunction]

Neither did I.

Sure.

Let's use the example that chapter gives, just two verses later, shall we?

Hebrews 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

You may have overlooked it though.

And I understand, since it QEDs my point.

Sorry, not following you on this. Could you point out in the verse where it specifically says that the faith of the believers allows them to have visual confirmation of things that unbelievers cannot see?

 

[Mr Strawberry]

Oh, my!

I must have mentioned He walked on water!?

Or He created the universe in six days!?

Hmm, let's see, was a biblical miracle what prompted my response? No, it wasn't. That would be you trying to change the subject. Was my response actually prompted by you quite specifically making your god out to be an incompetent buffoon? Why, yes it was.

 

[JacksBratt]

And that you cannot see either, unless you were to add to that passage. That is why you need faith. Correct?

Your statement here only highlights the biblical fact that:
Mark 8:18New International Version (NIV)

18 Do you have eyes but fail to see, and ears but fail to hear? And don’t you remember?
Proverbs 4:19 Verse Concepts

The way of the wicked is like darkness; They do not know over what they stumble.
- See more at: 9 Bible verses about Spiritual Blindness, In Unbelievers


1 Corinthians 2:14New International Version (NIV)

14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.






Proverbs 4:19New International Version (NIV)

19 But the way of the wicked is like deep darkness;
they do not know what makes them stumble.
Isaiah 44:18New International Version (NIV)

18 They know nothing, they understand nothing;
their eyes are plastered over so they cannot see,
and their minds closed so they cannot understand.
Ezekiel 12:2New International Version (NIV)

2 “Son of man, you are living among a rebellious people. They have eyes to see but do not see and ears to hear but do not hear, for they are a rebellious people.

John 1:5New International Version (NIV)

5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome[a] it.Matthew 13:13 Verse Concepts

"Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.
- See more at: 9 Bible verses about Spiritual Blindness, In Unbelievers
Matthew 13:13 Verse Concepts

"Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.
- See more at: 9 Bible verses about Spiritual Blindness, In Unbelievers
Matthew 13:13New International Version (NIV)

13 This is why I speak to them in parables:
“Though seeing, they do not see;
though hearing, they do not hear or understand.

Luke 8:10New International Version (NIV)

10 He said, “The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of God has been given to you, but to others I speak in parables, so that,
“‘though seeing, they may not see;
though hearing, they may not understand.’[a]










Proverbs 4:19 Verse Concepts

The way of the wicked is like darkness; They do not know over what they stumble.
- See more at: 9 Bible verses about Spiritual Blindness, In Unbelievers
Proverbs 4:19 Verse Concepts

The way of the wicked is like darkness; They do not know over what they stumble.
- See more at: 9 Bible verses about Spiritual Blindness, In Unbelievers

 

[lewiscalledhimmaster]

Then believe what you feel comfortable with.

How post-modern of you.

 

[lewiscalledhimmaster]

Jeremiah did not understand physiology. My heart is a pump. It is my mind that searches for truth. It is my mind that reasons. It is my mind that empathizes with the weak, the helpless, and the downtrodden.

Generally the idea of loving, or seeking God is considered to be something one does with one's whole being (the parts being synonymous) i.e. heart, soul, mind, strength (whatever we are learning about ourselves)
We are more than the sum of our parts, this is the Christian message. i.e. Image of GOD.*

~~~
* '....The Old Testament does not tell us the nature of the image of God. The New Testament tells us much about the new creation in Christ, but does not explicitly relate this to the image of God in the Old Testament. Finally, the problem of Satan just stated keeps us from a simple paralleling of attributes in man and God as the basis for a description of the imago Dei. The Bible is not as concerned as we are to discover the precise nature of man’s God-likeness. ....' ( http://www.desiringgod.org/articles/the-image-of-god )

 

[Davian]

How post-modern of you.

It's not what I would go with, personally.

 

[Davian]

Your statement here only highlights the biblical fact that:
Mark 8:18New International Version (NIV)

18 Do you have eyes but fail to see, and ears but fail to hear? And don’t you remember?
Proverbs 4:19 Verse Concepts

The way of the wicked is like darkness; They do not know over what they stumble.
- See more at: 9 Bible verses about Spiritual Blindness, In Unbelievers


1 Corinthians 2:14New International Version (NIV)

14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.






Proverbs 4:19New International Version (NIV)

19 But the way of the wicked is like deep darkness;
they do not know what makes them stumble.
Isaiah 44:18New International Version (NIV)

18 They know nothing, they understand nothing;
their eyes are plastered over so they cannot see,
and their minds closed so they cannot understand.
Ezekiel 12:2New International Version (NIV)

2 “Son of man, you are living among a rebellious people. They have eyes to see but do not see and ears to hear but do not hear, for they are a rebellious people.

John 1:5New International Version (NIV)

5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome[a] it.Matthew 13:13 Verse Concepts

"Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.
- See more at: 9 Bible verses about Spiritual Blindness, In Unbelievers
Matthew 13:13 Verse Concepts

"Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.
- See more at: 9 Bible verses about Spiritual Blindness, In Unbelievers
Matthew 13:13New International Version (NIV)

13 This is why I speak to them in parables:
“Though seeing, they do not see;
though hearing, they do not hear or understand.

Luke 8:10New International Version (NIV)

10 He said, “The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of God has been given to you, but to others I speak in parables, so that,
“‘though seeing, they may not see;
though hearing, they may not understand.’[a]










Proverbs 4:19 Verse Concepts

The way of the wicked is like darkness; They do not know over what they stumble.
- See more at: 9 Bible verses about Spiritual Blindness, In Unbelievers
Proverbs 4:19 Verse Concepts

The way of the wicked is like darkness; They do not know over what they stumble.
- See more at: 9 Bible verses about Spiritual Blindness, In Unbelievers

I do not doubt that the writers of the bible were intelligent and educated for their times. The "fact" that they could simply add passages as needed in an attempt to place the burden on the non-believer does nothing to support your beliefs. I will not bother to ask you to define "spiritual".

"There's no reason, in theory, why god's presence couldn't be measured or detected in some way. The only reason that believers claim that god "can't" be detected in this way is because god *isn't* detected, and so a vast and intricate rationale has to be devised to explain this vast, loving, eternal, all-powerful "something" which is, in every external, objective respect, indistinguishable from nothing." -- NMS on alt.atheism

 

[Gracchus]

Generally the idea of loving, or seeking God is considered to be something one does with one's whole being (the parts being synonymous) i.e. heart, soul, mind, strength (whatever we are learning about ourselves)

Can I seek God if I have no little toe on my right foot, or does that disqualify my search? Here is the twilight zone where religion dwells, in the undefined and indistinct shadows of metaphor and misunderstanding.
A person is not a distinct conglomeration of atoms, for atoms are continually entering, reconfiguring at the molecular level and leaving, so that what was "me" yesterday is not a bit of CO2 floating miles away or a drop of water flowing down the sewer. Persons are process, dynamic pattern, like ripples in a river, and you cannot separate them from the flow of matter and energy.
You can reason without your little toe. You can reason if your heart has been removed and you are dependent on a mechanical pump. If your brain is gone, there is no reasoning. If it is damaged the reasoning may be defective.

We are more than the sum of our parts, this is the Christian message. i.e. Image of GOD.*

How are humans in the "Image of God" any more than a worm? And besides, that is not something that all, or probably even most of the Christians, even those on this forum would agree on. It is one of those "glittering generalities", one of those "warm fuzzies", so comforting and not to be examined too closely, that dwell in the Neverland of the religious imagination.

{quote]~~~
* '....The Old Testament does not tell us the nature of the image of God. The New Testament tells us much about the new creation in Christ, but does not explicitly relate this to the image of God in the Old Testament.[/quote]
In short, the Old Testament tells us nothing and the New Testament tells us nothing, and thus we are free to blow whatever smoke we can to blur and obscure our ignorance.

Finally, the problem of Satan just stated keeps us from a simple paralleling of attributes in man and God as the basis for a description of the imago Dei.

So, we cannot deal with the problems of our cobbled construct because of another cobbled construct. God gave us a devil just to prevent our understanding. Round and round we whirl, in ever decreasing circles of nonsense, until ... God, or Satan is invoked to explain all the contradictions and absurdities.

The Bible is not as concerned as we are to discover the precise nature of man’s God-likeness. ....' ( The Image of God | Desiring God )

Because that is not the purpose of the Bible. The Bible doesn't have just one purpose, being a collection of writings, edited and revised for reasons of changing politics and social conditions, to serve the financial and egotistical desires of a hierarchy. Of course it is confusing, therein lies its value to the believer. Like God and Satan, the Bible is a chaotic mass of contradictions from which we can pull whatever random assertion that is momentarily convenient. I know all about God: He is loving and forgiving and full of wrath, he is unchanging, and omniscient, except when he changes his mind, an infinite being of infinitely Procrustean dimensions, cut to fit the immeasurable dimensions and preconceptions of any mind, no matter how stupid, how ignorant, how damaged, how perverse.

Let us leave off metaphors about hearts, let us not appeal to invisible imponderables. Let us reason.

If we are God's children, it is time to grow up.

 

[PsychoSarah]

This is a superstitious darwinian view of natural selection... that of some all powerful force scrutinizing every bit of nature and distinguishing beneficial or harmful variations no matter how slight.

In reality, natural selection doesn't really work well at all. It's clunky and inefficient, and only variations which confer major positive or negative fitness signals have an effect with regards to population fixation. Slightly harmful and beneficial variations will be swamped by phenotypic noise. A tiny ripple is not noticed in crashing waves of the sea.

This is why evolutionists routinely fall back on NS examples of simple cosmetic changes of pigmentation with regard to predation factors. And of course all of these types of changes are cyclical in nature... beak shapes and hair or skin color can fluctuate for billions of years and it's never going to lead to fundamentally new anatomical structures.

Uh no, the harmful mutations still happen. The organisms that have them just don't live long enough to reproduce and spread them throughout the population. Lab environments are more controlled and generally are less harsh environments, so more bad mutations can get passed down because the organisms don't have to be as strong to survive in a lab setting as they would have to be to survive in a natural environment.

 

[JacksBratt]

"There's no reason, in theory, why god's presence couldn't be measured or detected in some way. The only reason that believers claim that god "can't" be detected in this way is because god *isn't* detected, and so a vast and intricate rationale has to be devised to explain this vast, loving, eternal, all-powerful "something" which is, in every external, objective respect, indistinguishable from nothing."

-- NMS on alt.atheism

So, can a sculpture measure it's artist? Can the computer "measure" its designer? Can the painting detect and measure the artist?

This is one of the most ridiculous reason for denouncing the existence of God.

 

[JacksBratt]

Let us leave off metaphors about hearts, let us not appeal to invisible imponderables. Let us reason.

If we are God's children, it is time to grow up.

If you leave off the metaphors of anything, it world would be so dull and grey it would depress the universe.



In order to be God's child, you must be reborn and get rid of your stuffy, arrogant, pompus attitude that you drip wisdom and knowledge. You have to come to Christ as a child and learn His way. You have to have a severe attitude change to one of humbleness and acceptance of the fact that all your vast knowledge is but a drop in the ocean. We have to accept we NEED Him.

Otherwise, we will never see past our pride and self righteous fog.
Only then can you grow up.

 

[JacksBratt]

Sorry, not following you on this. Could you point out in the verse where it specifically says that the faith of the believers allows them to have visual confirmation of things that unbelievers cannot see?

Please see post 787

 

[Davian]

So, can a sculpture measure it's artist? Can the computer "measure" its designer? Can the painting detect and measure the artist?

This is one of the most ridiculous reason for denouncing the existence of God.

It was not intended to denounce. It is a comment on all of this anti-science rhetoric you post, as some sort of distraction for why you cannot simply demonstrate the existence of your particular deity.

 

[AV1611VET]

It was not intended to denounce. It is a comment on all of this anti-science rhetoric you post, as some sort of distraction for why you cannot simply demonstrate the existence of your particular deity.

His "particular deity" makes no bones about being invisible.

1 Timithy 1:17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

And this isn't just invisible in the mediocre sense.

This means INVISIBLE.

As in invisible to the empirical senses and any machine that science can come up with to detect Him.

So while you guys are begging, pleading, and having bug fits over lacks of evidence, we are trying to tell you that ...

Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

 

[crjmurray]

His "particular deity" makes no bones about being invisible.

1 Timithy 1:17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

And this isn't just invisible in the mediocre sense.

This means INVISIBLE.

As in invisible to the empirical senses and any machine that science can come up with to detect Him.

So while you guys are begging, pleading, and having bug fits over lacks of evidence, we are trying to tell you that ...

Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

And how is this different from saying that a bunny controls everything in the universe but nobody can see him?

 

[AV1611VET]

And how is this different from saying that a bunny controls everything in the universe but nobody can see him?

1. Your bunny lacks the proper documentation.
2. Your bunny lacks a martyrs' list.
3. Your bunny lacks the proper notoriety from an accredited list of professional protagonists.

I could go on and on about your poor bunny, but the fact remains that: 1) without the proper documentation, and 2) without a reputation, then your bunny is no better than Freodin's avatar.