Why do YECists have such a low opinion of God?

[Vene]

GOD caused Israel to walk through the Red Sea on dry land and drowned the Egyptians..... Is that also impossible?

Technically, no it isn't.

 

[LittleNipper]

So make perfect sense out of these data in terms of a global flood. They are from Glenn Morton's web page on the geologic column. Glenn gives lots of information on each layer so you should be able to tell us which layers are flood deposits and which are not and how the flood deposited those layers that are flood deposits.
Tertiary Ft. Union Fm ..........................100 feet
Cretaceous Greenhorn Fm .......................4910 feet
Cretaceous Mowry Fm........................... 5370 feet
Cretaceous Inyan Kara Fm.......................5790 feet
Jurassic Rierdon Fm............................6690 feet
Triassic Spearfish Fm..........................7325 feet
Permian Opeche Fm..............................7740 feet
Pennsylvanian Amsden Fm........................7990 feet
Pennsylvanian Tyler Fm.........................8245 feet
Mississippian Otter Fm.........................8440 feet
Mississippian Kibbey Lm........................8780 feet
Mississippian Charles Fm.......................8945 feet
Mississippian Mission Canyon Fm................9775 feet
Mississippian Lodgepole Fm....................10255 feet
Devonian Bakken Fm............................11085 feet
Devonian Birdbear Fm..........................11340 feet
Devonian Duperow Fm...........................11422 feet
Devonian Souris River Fm......................11832 feet
Devonian Dawson Bay Fm........................12089 feet
Devonian Prairie Fm...........................12180 feet
Devonian Winnipegosis Grp.....................12310 feet
Silurian Interlake Fm.........................12539 feet
Ordovician Stonewall Fm.......................13250 feet
Ordovician Red River Dolomite.................13630 feet
Ordovician Winnipeg Grp.......................14210 feet
Ordovician Black Island Fm....................14355 feet
Cambrian Deadwood Fm..........................14445 feet
Precambrian...................................14945 feet



Here are some more data from Glenn Morton on living and extinct mammals compared to where those mammals appear in stratigraphy

On the genus level the numbers of members of extant mammalian genera in the various geological epochs is:
oldest
Triassic there are 4 genera--no living members
Jurassic 43 genera-no living members
Cretaceous 36 genera-no living members
Paleocene 213 genera-no living members
Eocene 569 genera-3 extant genera
Oligocene 494 genera 11 extant genera
Miocene 749 genera 57 extant genera
Pliocene 762 genera 133 extant genera
Pleistocene 830 genera 417 extant genera
youngest

Please make "perfect sense" of these data for us. Please explain how post flood survival of animals at the genus level is so perfectly inversely correlated with how deeply the fossils of those animals were supposedly buried by the global flood.

After that perhaps you can make sense of massive salt deposits, trace fossils throughout the fossil record that indicate animals going about their daily buisness with no evidence of a global flood and of course I would really like some YEC to make "perfect sense" of the earth's biogeography which makes no sense at all in terms of a the global flood.

Please see:

http://www.ucgstp.org/lit/gn/gn046/noahsflood.htm

http://www.kjvbible.org/geysers.html

http://www.genesisfiles.com/Flood.htm

http://www.cs.unc.edu/~plaisted/ce/flood.html

 

[AV1611VET]

Young Earth Creationist Geology only works when the Creationist expressing said geology has no working knowledge of how rocks form, what rocks look like, or how structures on the planet form or what they look like.

YEC Geology is a perfect combination of words without any technical meaning.

Thaumaturgy, do you think you're making an impact on us when you point out that we have no working knowledge of this or that?

I deal daily with people who have no working knowledge of:

• ex-nihilo Creation
• embedded age
• existential age
• Ontological Subordination
• Who wrote Genesis, the Gospels, etc
• Our Bible's predecessors
• How 109/333 prophecies can be 100%
• Crusade blame, Witch Trial blame, etc
• et. al.

Do you see me rubbing this in their faces?

Oh, once in awhile I might --- but with some people, I have to explain it over and over and over, and they still don't get it.

So if you think your one finger pointing at us overrides the three pointing back at you --- think again.

 

[Frumious Bandersnatch]

Please see:

http://www.ucgstp.org/lit/gn/gn046/noahsflood.htm

http://www.kjvbible.org/geysers.html

http://www.genesisfiles.com/Flood.htm

http://www.cs.unc.edu/~plaisted/ce/flood.html

The collection of PRATTS on the web pages you link fail to answer my questions. Further, there are so many things totally wrong on every one of these bogus pages that I don't have time to address them right now but I will try to get to it later as they all provide more good example of the total absurdity of "flood geology" and I already have refutations of several of them on my computer at home from previous debates.

 

[thaumaturgy]

Thaumaturgy, do you think you're making an impact on us when you point out that we have no working knowledge of this or that?

But AV, the bald fact of their gross ignorance doesn't stop them from talking about it. And when a knowledgable person comes on, like me, Baggins or Frumy, and we give actual information (not just posted links), they simply ignore and go back to spouting their ignorance.

If it is offensive to them to have their ignorance pointed out to them, then I suggest there is an easy remedy for that.

I deal daily with people who have no working knowledge of:

• ex-nihilo Creation
• embedded age
• existential age
• Ontological Subordination
• Who wrote Genesis, the Gospels, etc
• Our Bible's predecessors
• How 109/333 prophecies can be 100%
• Crusade blame, Witch Trial blame, etc
• et. al.

Do you see me rubbing this in their faces?

Well, considering that you seldom if ever provide any real reason why "embedded age" is anything more than a fun "hypothesis" for you or why, as a Christian you feel no problem in pointing out to atheists what they believe or what the bible tells them they are, but seem annoyed when we point out that as a Christian your faith carries some baggage of its own which you simply disavow.

But most fun of all 109/333 <> 100%. If and when the remaining prophecies are fulfilled then you can say 333/333 = 100%

Until that time making that claim is beyond silly.

So if you think your one finger pointing at us overrides the three pointing back at you --- think again.

Ah, but AV, at least I learned about Christianity, spent years immersed in religious thought, have read the bible, so when I speak about the church, I am doing more than simply spouting some link to an atheist website I don't understand.

I expect the same from creationists who wish to take on the geology.

So indeed the three fingers pointing back at me contain one that I hold in reserve for willfull ignorance.

 

[thaumaturgy]

Please see:

http://www.ucgstp.org/lit/gn/gn046/noahsflood.htm

OK, just scanning this one I found this gem:

"This water-deposited strata offers abundant evidence of massive floods unlike anything seen in human history outside the Bible. "

While technically correct to a small extent it should be pointed out that we see evidence for many many such inundations separated in time by many many instances of dry land and "sub aerial exposure".

AND, most of them look exactly like processes we see ongoing today!

Gosh, again, which one is it?

Once you point it out, then tell me:

1. Why isn't this a GLOBAL DEPOSIT? (I bet dollars to donuts that if you point to ONE formation I can find a correlated time-strata that had a dramatically different depositional character somewhere else on the world).

2. How do you know the multiple other examples are NOT the Global Flood?

http://www.kjvbible.org/geysers.html

I only had to read THIS to blow this one off:

"Instead of taking the usual approach: that Noah's Flood could not have happened because of this fact or that fact, let's approach the problem from this angle: Noah's Flood did happen because the Bible is true, so let's try and find answers that can fit the facts

BZZZZ! NOT science! Inherently ANTI-SCIENCE.

Throw the bum out.

Next,:

http://www.genesisfiles.com/Flood.htm

You wanna see what a global layer that represents a comet impact looks like?

How about the K-T boundary and the Ir Anomaly.

Only problem for the "Flood" is, this doesn't seem to correlate with a world-wide inundation. And it happened more than 5000 years ago.

I'll have to get back to you on the St. Peter Sandstone mentioned in you last reference. I knew some folks back when I was in grad school in Missouri who apparently did some research on it.

I'm sure that doesn't actually technically interest you, Nipper, because it indicates there may be people out there who know more about these topics than what you just post in terms of creationist pages.

(Next time, if you want to sound more than just superficially interested in any of these topics, please post more than just the link. Tell us what YOU find compelling about the statement. What do you know?)

 

[LittleNipper]

The collection of PRATTS on the web pages you link fail to answer my questions. Further, there are so many things totally wrong on every one of these bogus pages that I don't have time to address them right now but I will try to get to it later as they all provide more good example of the total absurdity of "flood geology" and I already have refutations of several of them on my computer at home from previous debates.

That is because your training/education and naturalistic mindset, has forced you to establish other parameters for that logic to support evolution and uniformitarianism. Sort of like having a house that has been totally infested with termites for years. One cannot fix it. It must be entirely torn down and rebuilt from the foundation up. In your case, even your foundation is faulty. It needs to rest on the ROCK OF AGES, instead of the wisdom of mortals....

 

[TheOutsider]

That is because your training/education and naturalistic mindset, has forced you to establish other parameters for .

And what exactly is wrong with naturalism? It seems to do a very good job of accurately explaining nature so far. Why would we want to abandon it when it works? And what method should we use to study nature instead? Do you really think that sitting in the closet and asking God to tell us how biology and geology work would give us accurate results and predictions?

 

[thaumaturgy]

That is because your training/education and naturalistic mindset, has forced you to establish other parameters for that logic to support evolution and uniformitarianism. Sort of like having a house that has been totally infested with termites for years. One cannot fix it. It must be entirely torn down and rebuilt from the foundation up. In your case, even your foundation is faulty. It needs to rest on the ROCK OF AGES, instead of the wisdom of mortals....

Nipper, the very second you show even the slightest understanding of geology, let alone mechanics, sedimentology, stratigraphy, etc, that is when we will be impressed by your insight.

No offense but so far you've thrown out a bunch of other people's thoughts without any real apparent understanding of your own.

Why, in the name of all that is rational, would I accept your insight into anything?

No offense here, but if you want to 'minister' to us, maybe you should do a little homework first.

Don't tell me how geology is "infested" and must be torn down. Tell me something that indicates you even understand simple Geology 101 concepts before you tell me how they are wrong.

It's the only decent thing you could do, don't you agree?

 

[Frumious Bandersnatch]

That is because your training/education and naturalistic mindset, has forced you to establish other parameters for that logic to support evolution and uniformitarianism.

No it has forced me to consider things that actually may have happened and given me enough information to realize that the pages you link are full of total nonsense.

Sort of like having a house that has been totally infested with termites for years. One cannot fix it. It must be entirely torn down and rebuilt from the foundation up. ..

The termite infested house that is flood geology was torn down long ago. I already pointed you to a page written by a former YEC that described how that happened.

You should also remember this quote from another former YEC, Glenn Morton the author of Why I Left Young Earth Creationism,

"Nothing that young-earth creationists had taught me about geology turned out to be true."

In your case, even your foundation is faulty.

So show us where. Show how you can easily interpret the data I presented above in terms of flood geology. You could start with a problem that should easy. Tell us exactly which layers are flood deposits, which are preflood and which are post flood. If the flood was such a unique and world changing event this should be easy. Have at it.

It needs to rest on the ROCK OF AGES, instead of the wisdom of mortals..

As others have said the Bible is indeed about the Rock of Ages. It has nothing to do with the age of rocks.

 

[LittleNipper]

And what exactly is wrong with naturalism? It seems to do a very good job of accurately explaining nature so far. Why would we want to abandon it when it works? And what method should we use to study nature instead? Do you really think that sitting in the closet and asking God to tell us how biology and geology work would give us accurate results and predictions?

Nothing, unless it is applied to exclude or replace the supernatural with all intent and no matter the variables.

 

[Vene]

Nothing, unless it is applied to exclude or replace the supernatural with all intent and no matter the variables.

But we can't measure the supernatural. If you can design a method to measure it, great we'll include it in scientific thought. But without anyway of knowing that the supernatural is there the only logical thing to do is assume that it isn't going to make a difference.

 

[Split Rock]

Thaumaturgy, do you think you're making an impact on us when you point out that we have no working knowledge of this or that?

I deal daily with people who have no working knowledge of:

• embedded age
  Do you see me rubbing this in their faces?

• 
  AVET, this would cover every single poster here. Only you and your pastor believe in "embedded age."

 

[LittleNipper]

No it has forced me to consider things that actually may have happened and given me enough information to realize that the pages you link are full of total nonsense.
The termite infested house that is flood geology was torn down long ago. I already pointed you to a page written by a former YEC that described how that happened.

You should also remember this quote from another former YEC, Glenn Morton the author of Why I Left Young Earth Creationism,

"Nothing that young-earth creationists had taught me about geology turned out to be true."

So show us where. Show how you can easily interpret the data I presented above in terms of flood geology. You could start with a problem that should easy. Tell us exactly which layers are flood deposits, which are preflood and which are post flood. If the flood was such a unique and world changing event this should be easy. Have at it.

As others have said the Bible is indeed about the Rock of Ages. It has nothing to do with the age of rocks.

But you see, I realize GOD. So uniforitarinism and the "Ascent of Man" are foolishness to me, from a very practical standpoint---------That is not how GOD says HE did it or HE allowed it to happen....

 

[LittleNipper]

But we can't measure the supernatural. If you can design a method to measure it, great we'll include it in scientific thought. But without anyway of knowing that the supernatural is there the only logical thing to do is assume that it isn't going to make a difference.

If prayer does not work you might have a motive.

 

[Baggins]

If prayer does not work you might have a motive.

It has been scientifically shown to have no effect, what more do you want?

In fact it seems to show that people who get prayed for fare slightly worse than those who aren't, but I doubt it is statistically significant.

 

[Frumious Bandersnatch]

But you see, I realize GOD.

So does Glenn but he also realizes that the data he himself collected can't be reconcilled with "flood geology".

So uniforitarinism

Uniformitarianism is a YEC strawman. We know there have been catastrophic events in the history of the earth, in fact so many that they can't possibly be reconcilled with young earth creationism as I have discussed HERE.

and the "Ascent of Man"

The ascent of man has nothing to do with flood geology.

are foolishness to me, from a very practical standpoint---------That is not how GOD says HE did it or HE allowed it to happen....

It is how you think God says he did it but that is not how it happened so either you are wrong about what God "says" or God is a liar. I'll go with you being wrong.

 

[AV1611VET]

Only you and your pastor believe in "embedded age."

What gave you that idea?

And it's okay to believe in embedded history (Omphalos Hypothesis), but I mention embedded age and you guys act so "innocent" as to not having a clue as to what I'm talking about?

Insomuch as I had to start a whole thread on the subject?

Give me a break!

And, incidentally, some posters here say they are one and the same, thus rendering your remark errorenous.

 

[AV1611VET]

It has been scientifically shown to have no effect, what more do you want?

If I had a son, and he asked me for a Lamborghini, "science" would show that request to have no effect as well.

 

[Nathan Poe]

If I had a son, and he asked me for a Lamborghini, "science" would show that request to have no effect as well.

That would be more of an economics question, anyway.

So, are you saying that God only grants prayers He would've granted in the first place?