Why do YECists have such a low opinion of God?

[AV1611VET]

So, the author of Genesis took at least seven years to write from verse 30 to verse 56?

What???

 

[Nathan Poe]

What???

Don't you understand your own statements?

"Nathan, at least seven years passed between Genesis 41:30 and Genesis 41:56"

Did you think that these verses were being written as they happened, not after the fact?

For someone who worships the Bible as much as you do, and knows it as much as you claim to, I'd expect better.

 

[AV1611VET]

Don't you understand your own statements?

"Nathan, at least seven years passed between Genesis 41:30 and Genesis 41:56"

Did you think that these verses were being written as they happened, not after the fact?

For someone who worships the Bible as much as you do, and knows it as much as you claim to, I'd expect better.

What did you mean by this doosey of a statement?

• And honestly, it happened in the very same story, AV. The same author fulfilled his own prophecy.

You mean that Joseph wrote about a seven-year famine, then somehow the collective will of those reading it caused it to happen?

I'm not sure what you're implying.

 

[Nathan Poe]

What did you mean by this doosey of a statement?

• And honestly, it happened in the very same story, AV. The same author fulfilled his own prophecy.

You mean that Joseph wrote about a seven-year famine, then somehow the collective will of those reading it caused it to happen?

Joseph? I thought the fundamentalist party line was that Moses wrote Genesis?

I'm not sure what you're implying.

I think you know exactly what I'm implying -- you're too intelligent not to.

Nevertheless, I'll explain it -- slowly.

The anonymous author of Genesis (for simplicity's sake, let's call him "Bob") wrote a story.

In the 30th verse of the 41st chapter of that story, Bob writes about an upcoming famine.

In the 56th verse of the very same chapter of that story, Bob writes about the famine he foreshadowed earlier.

I'll stop here so you can catch up -- let me know when we can continue.

 

[AV1611VET]

Joseph? I thought the fundamentalist party line was that Moses wrote Genesis?



I think you know exactly what I'm implying -- you're too intelligent not to.

Nevertheless, I'll explain it -- slowly.

The anonymous author of Genesis (for simplicity's sake, let's call him "Bob") wrote a story.

In the 30th verse of the 41st chapter of that story, Bob writes about an upcoming famine.

In the 56th verse of the very same chapter of that story, Bob writes about the famine he foreshadowed earlier.

I'll stop here so you can catch up -- let me know when we can continue.

I'll pass, Nathan --- this is taking way too long.

My contention is that 100% fulfilled prophecy supports the Bible's authenticity.

Your contention is that these prophecies are self-fulfilling prophecies which, of course, is your prerogative --- but not an option available to me.

 

[Elduran]

I'll pass, Nathan --- this is taking way too long.

My contention is that 100% fulfilled prophecy supports the Bible's authenticity.

Your contention is that these prophecies are self-fulfilling prophecies which, of course, is your prerogative --- but not an option available to me.

I'm assuming that "I'll pass" translates roughly to "uh-oh, this isn't going to go well no matter how I answer, better get out of this one fast"

For the record, Nathan, the example was extremely easy to follow and shows pretty much exactly what was required. After all, few people take 7 years to write 16 verses of a holy book, so the logical conclusion is that it was all collated after the final event. This of course leaves a lot of room for doctoring the prophecy, or just making it up altogether, which is of course much less convincing when it is touted as a fulfilled prophecy.

 

[Baggins]

I'm not sure a young earth could sustain life.

Your god is supposedly omnipotent, I don't think that would be a problem

But in any event, that was God's decision --- not mine.

Funny decision, makes him look like a trickster, either that or his powers are quite strongly constrained.

 

[ChordatesLegacy]

Either that, or you have to give Him the benefit of a doubt and realize that He documented what He did to clarify (not cloud) the issue.

He knew in His omniscience that someday people would accuse Him of this, and we have His written testimony of what really happened.

There is not a single word anywhere written by god. Or are you talking about people who claim to be a tool through which god writes.

If that is the case, god is using me as a tool, to tell you that you have it all wrong.

But of course this is not true, only a delusional person would thing that god is using then to pass messages to the masses or other individuals for that matter.

The sad fact is the world is full of delusional people; one of my favourites is david icke who thought he was the son of god for a while, I think he now advocates that the world is ruled by reptiles.

The thing is, he can use all the evidences used by any religion, mainstream or not to support his claims. If you believe in god, then you have to take his claims seriously, I mean you take the second hand claims of a Jewish man seriously.

 

[Nathan Poe]

I'll pass, Nathan --- this is taking way too long.

Fair enough -- I can only teach those willing to learn.

My contention is that 100% fulfilled prophecy supports the Bible's authenticity.

And you were about ten seconds away from being forced to admit the error in that contention -- hence your hasty retreat.

Your contention is that these prophecies are self-fulfilling prophecies which, of course, is your prerogative --- but not an option available to me.

"Not available" to you? Are you Biblically prohibited from changing your mind?

 

[AV1611VET]

I'm assuming that "I'll pass" translates roughly to "uh-oh, this isn't going to go well no matter how I answer, better get out of this one fast"

Yup --- after three hours and thirteen posts --- that was fast.

For the record, Nathan, the example was extremely easy to follow and shows pretty much exactly what was required. After all, few people take 7 years to write 16 verses of a holy book, so the logical conclusion is that it was all collated after the final event.

No --- the "logical conclusion" was that it was a self-fulfilled prophecy. What you just described is not a self-fulfilled prophecy.

I think the "logical conclusion" is that you guys really don't know what happened, and that you're unwilling to take the account as it was written.

Accusations of "self-fulfilled prophecies" and "didn't happen" and "written after-the-fact" are a dime-a-dozen.

This of course leaves a lot of room for doctoring the prophecy, or just making it up altogether, which is of course much less convincing when it is touted as a fulfilled prophecy.

Okay --- 8 cents per dozen.

 

[AV1611VET]

Your god is supposedly omnipotent, I don't think that would be a problem

No, it wouldn't --- but as I have said before --- this universe eventually landed in the hands of Satan, and he can't handle it like he thought he could. He does not have the power required to prevent entropy, and this universe is winding down to a uniform temperature.

Funny decision, makes him look like a trickster, either that or his powers are quite strongly constrained.

Either that, or He documented what He did quite clearly.

 

[AV1611VET]

The thing is, he can use all the evidences used by any religion, mainstream or not to support his claims. If you believe in god, then you have to take his claims seriously, I mean you take the second hand claims of a Jewish man seriously.

Try forty Jewish men, most of them writing independently of each other, over a period of 1500 years, in three languages, on three continents, representing a variety of social classes and vocations, during times of peace, war, feast, and famine.

With 100% accuracy.

 

[AV1611VET]

Fair enough -- I can only teach those willing to learn.

Then at least use the right terminology. A self-fulfilled prophecy is not what you were describing.

And if you think you're "teaching" by calling the author (Joseph, in this case) a liar, guess again.

If you can't teach me the account as it was written, then by all means, consider me "unwilling to learn."

 

[LeeC]

I meant 100% fulfilled prophecy.

Nostradamus has a book full of prophecies.

Here’s a prophecy... as clear as any in the bible.

"A team in red will win the cup this year"

Actually... this is better than any bible prophecy because silly me has narrowed it down to a single year.

Oh well... I bet I'm still right.

And when I am proven right, does this mean I am a prophet of the standard of the bible?

Lee

 

[LeeC]

How’s about reading up on “prophecy for dummies”?

http://www.skepticreport.com/lighterside/prophecydummies.htm

Says it all really...

Lee

 

[AV1611VET]

Here’s a prophecy... as clear as any in the bible.

"A team in red will win the cup this year"

Actually... this is better than any bible prophecy because silly me has narrowed it down to a single year.

Oh well... I bet I'm still right.

And when I am proven right, does this mean I am a prophet of the standard of the bible?

Lee

Nope --- make all the prophecies you want --- we know they ended with the completion of the Scriptures.

What that means is --- you're just guessing.

 

[thaumaturgy]

I meant 100% fulfilled prophecy.

Nostradamus has a book full of prophecies.

Oh right. Sorry.

Most religions, or certainly many, feel prophecy underlies the proof of their religion's "truth". Except none are 100%.

Take the Bible: In Genesis 49:10 God promises the rule of Israel to the tribe of Judah.

Except Saul was a Benjaminite (Acts 13:21)

So, since this can't be 're-interpretted' because Saul was King, he wasn't from Judah, and we can't go back in time to make it all right, then we have one that may be questioned. Ergo not 100%.

As for Nostradamus, many feel some of his prophecies were fulfilled! Granted it's usually a goofy "word game" because he wrote the opaquely on purpose.

Show us a place in the prophetic works of the Bible in which a prophecy was made, a corrective course applied based on the prophecy and problems were averted, and do it with a modern example that is well documented by numerous examples.

Since you seem to believe the Bible has predicted many important modern things like the Internet or cell phones.

Do that, maybe we'll be impressed.

 

[thaumaturgy]

Nope --- make all the prophecies you want --- we know they ended with the completion of the Scriptures.

What that means is --- you're just guessing.

AV, just admit: "there is nothing that anyone can say that would convince you the Bible isn't 100% accurate."

We know that's what you think, so why try to "convince" us you have some proof from prophecy?

People could bring up every known aspect to how prophecy "works" (ie ambiguousness) and point out numerous cases of failed Biblical prophecy, but you will jump through hoops of fire to try to convince us 2+2=5.

You have even claimed 100% fulfillment of all prophecy in the Bible even those about Jesus future actions, which is, by definition, not 100%.

So maybe you hold the bible us as such a weak piece of data that you won't allow any potential falsification.

Is that it? Is the Bible not able to defend it's own prophecies to objective outside observers?

We could be impressed, but we haven't been so far.

We wait.

Maybe you should keep looking for more impressive proof.

 

[AV1611VET]

Take the Bible: In Genesis 49:10 God promises the rule of Israel to the tribe of Judah.

Except Saul was a Benjaminite (Acts 13:21)

So, since this can't be 're-interpretted' because Saul was King, he wasn't from Judah, and we can't go back in time to make it all right, then we have one that may be questioned. Ergo not 100%.

That depends on when the prophecy was to start.

Note this conversation between God and Samuel concerning Saul:

[bible]1 Samuel 8:1-9[/bible]

It was never God's intent for Israel to be ruled by their own kings. That's one of the reasons He had the Tabernacle built --- so He could reign with them.

Technically this is called a Theocracy --- the direct rule of God the Father on the earth.

Here's what Dr Henry Morris says:

This important prophecy has been strikingly fulfilled. Although Judah was neither Jacob's firstborn son nor the son who would produce the priestly tribe, he was the son through whom god would fulfill His promises to Israel and to the world. The leadership, according to Jacob, was to go to Judah, but this did not happen for over 600 years. Moses came from Levi, Joshua from Ephraim, Gideon from Manasseh, Samson from Dan, Samuel from Ephraim, and Saul from Benjamin. But when David finally became king, Judah held the sceptre and did not relinquish it until after Shilo came.

As for Nostradamus, many feel some of his prophecies were fulfilled! Granted it's usually a goofy "word game" because he wrote the opaquely on purpose.

Not with 100% accuracy.

Show us a place in the prophetic works of the Bible in which a prophecy was made, a corrective course applied based on the prophecy and problems were averted, and do it with a modern example that is well documented by numerous examples.

Nineveh comes to mind - (I know what's coming though. Been there before.)

Since you seem to believe the Bible has predicted many important modern things like the Internet or cell phones.

When did I ever say the Bible predicted modern things like the Internet or cell phones?

I said the Bible mentions them, using language that is not age-specific.

If I said "predicted" --- I was wrong.

Do that, maybe we'll be impressed.

So will I.

 

[AV1611VET]

AV, just admit: "there is nothing that anyone can say that would convince you the Bible isn't 100% accurate."

Would it help if I changed my signature to: Where the Bible disagrees with science - science is wrong?

We know that's what you think, so why try to "convince" us you have some proof from prophecy?

Until you guys show me that you have even a small understanding of anything I say, I'll respectfully disagree.

All you guys do is make jokes, ad hominem, and ask the same questions over and over --- then later you want credit for understanding us???

Not on your life, Thaumaturgy --- show me you've earned it, by showing me you've learned it.

People could bring up every known aspect to how prophecy "works" (ie ambiguousness) and point out numerous cases of failed Biblical prophecy, but you will jump through hoops of fire to try to convince us 2+2=5.

When I get junk explanations like "self-fulfilling prophecies" or "I don't believe the Bible - therefore you're wrong" --- I light the fire.

You have even claimed 100% fulfillment of all prophecy in the Bible even those about Jesus future actions, which is, by definition, not 100%.

Thanks for prov... er... demonstrating my point.

So maybe you hold the bible us as such a weak piece of data that you won't allow any potential falsification.

I don't consider the following explanations "potential falsification:"

• didn't happen
• self-fulfilling
• science says otherwise

Is that it? Is the Bible not able to defend it's own prophecies to objective outside observers?

Depends on what you mean by "objective outside observer." If you mean a scientific-only biased approach --- you're definitely correct.

We could be impressed, but we haven't been so far.

So I notice.

We wait.

While you're waiting --- keep looking.