Why do we receive Grace

[Brightfame52]

I wonder what you believe that "Christ dying for somebody" actually means. If you believe that He died for every single person, but not everybody is actually saved, where does that leave the words of the angel to Joseph:

“"And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name JESUS, for He will save His people from their sins."” (Mt 1:21 NKJV)

The angel doesn't say "He will make their salvation a possibility", but "He will save His people."

All the Christians that Paul addressed in the church at Ephesus are described as "chosen before the foundation of the world". Are we to imagine that there was something special about the Ephesian Christians, or were all who are "in Christ" chosen before the foundation of the world? It was prophesied of Christ that He would see the travail of His soul and be satisfied. (see Isaiah 53:11). How could He be satisfied if even one for whom He died was not actually saved?

So did Christ die for every sinner without exception ? Or Just the elect ?

 

[David Lamb]

So did Christ die for every sinner without exception ? Or Just the elect ?

If Christ had died for every sinner without exception, then every sinner without exception would be a Christian and be saved. I thought I had already said that several times, not using those exact words, but I can't have been clear enough. I also stated that the bible describes Christians as chosen before the foundation of the world. I do apologise if I didn't make it sufficiently clear that I find in the bible that Christ died for the elect.

 

[Brightfame52]

If Christ had died for every sinner without exception, then every sinner without exception would be a Christian and be saved. I thought I had already said that several times, not using those exact words, but I can't have been clear enough. I also stated that the bible describes Christians as chosen before the foundation of the world. I do apologise if I didn't make it sufficiently clear that I find in the bible that Christ died for the elect.

Okay Good enough, but you seem to be somewhat reserved about coming right out and stating clearly, no Christ didn't die for every sinner without exception but only His Elect.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

So why, ultimately, do some believe on the Lord Jesus Christ while others don't? Is it because those who believe are somehow better (less sinful, cleverer, more godly, whatever) than those who don't? Not according to the bible. Paul wrote to the Christians at Ephesus that they had been dead in trespasses and sins before that wonderful event in their lives beginning with those two words, "But God.....":

“4 ¶ But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in the heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in [His] kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; [it is] the gift of God,” (Eph 2:4-8 NKJV)

Rather than believing Charles Finney, I believe what Jesus Himself said to people who didn't believe:

“26 "But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.” (Joh 10:26-27 NKJV)

Not, "You are not of my sheep because you do not believe."

I believe what Charles Finney says because he won multitudes to Christ throughout his ministry. He was one of the most successful evangelists of his time.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

so did Christ die for every sinner without exception ? Or Just the elect ?

Who do you think are the elect? How do you know that you are one of the elect?

 

[Brightfame52]

Who do you think are the elect? How do you know that you are one of the elect?

so did Christ die for every sinner without exception ? Or Just the elect ?

 

[Brightfame52]

I believe what Charles Finney says because he won multitudes to Christ throughout his ministry. He was one of the most successful evangelists of his time.

Finney was a false preacher.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

so did Christ die for every sinner without exception ? Or Just the elect ?

That's not the answer to my question.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Finney was a false preacher.

You have no reliable basis for that accusation. It is just your opinion.

 

[Brightfame52]

That's not the answer to my question.

Apparently it is, thats what I responded.

 

[Brightfame52]

You have no reliable basis for that accusation. It is just your opinion.

Just like you gave your opinion. I know he taught arminianism, that Jesus Christ died for all mankind, which is not the Jesus of scripture. Jesus of scripture His Saving Mission was limited to His People, not all mankind Matt 1:21

21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Just like you gave your opinion. I know he taught arminianism, that Jesus Christ died for all mankind, which is not the Jesus of scripture. Jesus of scripture His Saving Mission was limited to His People, not all mankind Matt 1:21

21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.

He didn't teach Arminianism. According to his Systematic Theology (which you might not have read), he said that he was somewhere in the middle between Calvinism and Arminianism. If you are going to accuse someone of Arminianism you could just as well say that John Wesley was a false preacher, because he was more on the Arminian side than Finney.

Actually I read through the first 420 page volume of Arminius' works, and found nothing that was contrary to Scripture, and he said that most of the negative things said about him were slanderous by those who opposed him, to discredit him. Actually the only difference between his theology and that of the Calvinist, was that he believed that people were able to choose to believe the Gospel or not. He certainly did not side with Pelagius who taught that man was essentially good and well able to choose to accept the Gospel. Arminius did not go that far. He believed that man was in bondage to sin and when convicted of sin, had the ability to choose to receive Christ as Saviour. Billy Graham taught that, and therefore you could accuse him of being a false preacher as well, because he basically preached the same as Finney did. Arminius did not believe in predestination, but taught that every person was able to accept the invitation to believe the Gospel and receive Christ.

 

[Brightfame52]

He didn't teach Arminianism. According to his Systematic Theology (which you might not have read), he said that he was somewhere in the middle between Calvinism and Arminianism. If you are going to accuse someone of Arminianism you could just as well say that John Wesley was a false preacher, because he was more on the Arminian side than Finney.

Actually I read through the first 420 page volume of Arminius' works, and found nothing that was contrary to Scripture, and he said that most of the negative things said about him were slanderous by those who opposed him, to discredit him. Actually the only difference between his theology and that of the Calvinist, was that he believed that people were able to choose to believe the Gospel or not. He certainly did not side with Pelagius who taught that man was essentially good and well able to choose to accept the Gospel. Arminius did not go that far. He believed that man was in bondage to sin and when convicted of sin, had the ability to choose to receive Christ as Saviour. Billy Graham taught that, and therefore you could accuse him of being a false preacher as well, because he basically preached the same as Finney did. Arminius did not believe in predestination, but taught that every person was able to accept the invitation to believe the Gospel and receive Christ.

He is arminian And he preach the false gospel

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

He is arminian And he preach the false gospel

As I said, if that is so, then you are saying that John Wesley, Billy Graham and every Assembly of God pastor and Bible teacher are false teachers as well.