Originally Posted by
ByGraceOnly
The Bible doesn't teach eventual salvation for all. Phil 2 is just showing that all in the next world will not be able to deny anymore that Jesus is God. They'll see it.
You're right, they'll SEE...just like 'doubting Thomas saw...and believed AFTER HE SAW. You do believe he is saved I hope.
The difference being...Thomas believed in this life, as all who are born again do.
Every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, but among those saying "Lord, Lord!"
...will be those the Lord never knew. This is basic.
It says in Ecclesiastes that God has set eternity in all our hearts. We'll exist forever. And death often refers to physical death in the Bible, not death of the spirit. Late in Revelation, for example, John sees the dead standing. So they'd died physically but were still alive spiritually.
So is orthodoxy correct or not, since they say everybody is spiritually dead to start with?
When John sees the dead before judgment, though we do not have an explicit "The dead lived again," we do see that they live again after the Thousand Years:
Revelation 20
King James Version (KJV)
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
We can see that the implcation is that as scripture teaches consisitently that all will be resurrected, some to everlasting life, some to everlasdting shame, that the dead among the wicked are also resurrected.
In the verses above the implication is that those that are resurrected who have, for example, followed Antichrist rather than Christ, the second death will have power over.
One of the things I see to be an error is to fail to distinguish the use of "first" in this passage. It is thought by many to be a reference to this being the first resurrection in regards to sequence of time, rather than it being qualitative. Just as there are two fates awaiting man, eternal life in Christ our Lord, or, for those that are not known of Him, and they themselves do not know Him...everlasting punishment.
What the above passage is saying is that those reseurrected after the thousand years will endure the second death. They have been raised from the dead and stand before God to be judged.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
The Book of life is a complete record. It is just my belief that all who are born are recorded in the book of life, and it is not until they die that they are blotted out. David cried out against his enemies, and ultimately, the enemies of Christ, for this very thing:
Psalm 69:28
King James Version (KJV)
28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.
There is no reconciling the fact that there are those that are blotted out of the Book of Life who will not enter into eternal relationship with God with the teaching that all will be saved. Only by minimalizing one's embrace of the word of God can such a conclusion be arrived at.
So is orthodoxy correct or not, since they say everybody is spiritually dead to start with?
They do not say it...scripture records the Lord saying it:
John 6
King James Version (KJV)
50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
Those that agree with the Lord simply echo the Lord's teaching.
If that's what you believe then don't you also have to believe that all these 'dead people' who are alive, are alive because they must have somehow got a 'born again' in spirit....PRAISE BE TO GOD.
Why would one need to read the New Birth into resurrection of the wicked for judgment?
Would we also read the new birth into the resurrection of Lazarus? Or those raised during the Lord's Crucifixion (though some do, lol, and see this as the firstfruits, which is not possible seeing that the Lord is the firstfruits).
I do see the spirit of man, in general, to be immortal. This is a doctrine coupled with Original Sin that is refuted by many that subscribe to doctrines such as Universal Salvation and annihilation. Which is unfortunate.
1PE 4:6 For this is why the gospel was preached even to the dead, that though judged in the flesh like men (EG DEAD), they might live in the spirit like God.
I think it is wonderful that God preached to these 'dead people' so that they too might SEE and believe and "live in the spirit like God"?
All who hear the Gospel, the revealed will of God for man's salvation, no matter the Age in which it is given, no matter whether it is temporal or eternal...are spiritually dead. This death speaks of seperation from God which all men, at physical birth, are.
For this reason the Lord came to give the life spoken of in the Book of John. We would have to assume that the Lord came to give life which man already had should we subscribe to doctrines that elevate man's spiritual status above that which God has declared. And that too...would be unfortunate. Because we would be refuting the very teaching of scripture in doing so, all to...maintain our own position.
Romans 5
King James Version (KJV)
8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
All men are enemies of God, and the sacrifice of Christ ALONE is what both brings reconciliation as well as the Life of Christ, which because He is God...is eternal life which we partake of when we are In Christ.
All men are born under condemnation, and it is not a matter of if they will pay a penalty for their sin, it is simply a matter of when. For those that are reconciled to God and no longer enemies, but sons, that penalty was placed upon Christ on the Cross.
One will either for himself pay this penalty, or Christ will. Until they turn to Him in faith and are, as He taught was necessary, born again, they remain under condemnation.
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
All men, due to the sin of one man, Adam, are under the judgment of condemnation. And it the Free Gift which has come upon all men unto justification of life. This gift can either be embraced or rejected, as scripture clearly sets forth, and the Lord said "Ye must be born again," leaving no option for those that reject this gift and remain enemies of God.
John 3
King James Version (KJV)
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
The Lord distinguishes between physical birth and spiritual birth. The New Birth, therefore, is dependant upon the work of God, not the work of our parents.
9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Just as in John 6 those that receive eternal life do so through faith in Christ and His death in their place. It was necessary, as the Lord spoke a number of times, that He should diee for the sins which seperates man from God.
And here we see that only those that believe in Him will not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Again it is reiterated that those who believe have everlasting life. God gave His Son to the whole world, but belief is required.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Christ came not to condemn, but to save.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Those that fail to believe are already condemned. Because they have not believed.
Passage after passage in scripture shows that not all will believe, not all wil obey the Gospel, not all will know Christ, and not all will be known of Christ, and will therefore not belong to Him.
These are they that are raised from the dead, who have never received life through or in Christ, and who will be cast into the Lake of Fire.
Continued...
