Why do some people think Hell isn't real?
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Soulgazer
Christian Gnostic
I have stated that I don't believe in hell, nor do I disbelieve in hell. I believe in God and I believe that God is Love. It's a loving thing to separate evil beings from others. It's not a loving thing to torture for all of eternity. People in their zeal have attributed things to God that are not very well thought out.
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Phantasman
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Kinda confused about that...
Can someone who doesn't believe in Hell give me a simple list of reasons why?
Hell (Sheohl, Gehenna,Hades) The actual word hell means to "cover over" and is taken from the root words I have given in parentheses. These words actually mean "grave" or "pit" and do not refer to any fire. Throughout the ages men have influenced Biblical teachings (Dante, Milton, etc.) and the Catholics as well, till we wind up with all kinds of man made illusions intertwined with spiritual truth. Even Johns visions of the Apocalypse (which some refer to Constantine) are used to tell us the lake of fire is hell. At every turn, churches try to conform believers into their circles, using hell as a stick, with the ticket to heaven as a carrot. Some even thinking that they have the only way there.
There is only one theme for a Christian. "Love the Lord God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind and love your neighbor as yourself".
There is only one set of laws for a Christian: The Ten Commandments
There is only one person to follow: Jesus, who showed us that eternal life was real, who showed us that the Ten Commandments were now spiritual laws and not physical laws, showed us how to pray to our heavenly father for our salvation and taught us the need for baptisms through water and fire.
After that the Holy Spirit is your guide. Hell will be a place you will not have any concern with, nor will search about.
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An eternal hell is neither gracious, merciful, or just. Plus it is redundant. This place is hell enough already.
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Phan and XP are right. When the bible was first printed in english, the word used to interpret for 2 hebrew words and 2 greek words (which is ridiculous) was hell, and as phan explained...it meant to cover or conceal. I don't know why they chose to translate it that way as there were plenty of more correct words that they could have used. From there in the last 400 years of man's foolish influence and agenda's the word now means a place of eternal torture and torment. Something that neither the ancient hebrews or early christians believed in. These were pagan beliefs that infiltrated the church. It is important to note that the majority of the church at the time of the council of Nicea was east of Jerusalem, so the various bishops and scribes grew up in the lands where these pagan beliefs originated. Just like paganism has interlocked with the catholics churches teachings throughout South America in the present day, so to did a place of punishment interweave with jewish and christian teachings well after the Torah and the writings of the early church were written and taught. In fact, though there were smatterings of it earlier, in the 4th century these perversions of church teachings became rampant throughout christendom.
Hell was a tool of fear and control. Before Simony was outlawed, the catholic church used the fires of purgatory to squeeze money from people, particularly the rich by saying that the churches prayers would get the people out of purgatory faster and into heaven. These indulgences funded the building of monastaries, cathedrals and the finery of the church. They pillaged europe to fill their coffers using these lies for centuries. Why would they ever admit they were wrong? Now, in an age of conspiracy and the da vinci code, modern christians look at the book of revelations, which is a symbolic book and says so right at the beginning of the book in verse 1 when it says he 'signified it' (which means as a sign or symbol), christians are determined to find literal meanings to the lake of fire. It is where all of the nonsense of eternal punishment, annihilation and other such doctrinal heresies come from. The church doesn't want to admit they don't know and the people who make their living out of religion will never own up to their duplicity because 'fear' is a great motivator and leads to the filling up of bank accounts.
Here is a good article on the symbolism of revelations and the lake of fire and the 2nd article actually reveals the truth about the lake of fire.
The Lake of Fire Pt1 article
Remnant Bible Studies The lake of fire Pt2 Intro Page
Both of which you will find very informative. There are also papers dealing directly with the the topic of hell on the site as well.
We don't refuse to believe in hell because we are rebellious and heretics. We don't believe in it because the bible never teaches it. If the bible taught something else, then i would believe that. But it doesn't. So I don't. It's not a small subject and the answers aren't easy to take, but if you are willing....then you could learn something amazing. It's up to you.
Hell was a tool of fear and control. Before Simony was outlawed, the catholic church used the fires of purgatory to squeeze money from people, particularly the rich by saying that the churches prayers would get the people out of purgatory faster and into heaven. These indulgences funded the building of monastaries, cathedrals and the finery of the church. They pillaged europe to fill their coffers using these lies for centuries. Why would they ever admit they were wrong? Now, in an age of conspiracy and the da vinci code, modern christians look at the book of revelations, which is a symbolic book and says so right at the beginning of the book in verse 1 when it says he 'signified it' (which means as a sign or symbol), christians are determined to find literal meanings to the lake of fire. It is where all of the nonsense of eternal punishment, annihilation and other such doctrinal heresies come from. The church doesn't want to admit they don't know and the people who make their living out of religion will never own up to their duplicity because 'fear' is a great motivator and leads to the filling up of bank accounts.
Here is a good article on the symbolism of revelations and the lake of fire and the 2nd article actually reveals the truth about the lake of fire.
The Lake of Fire Pt1 article
Remnant Bible Studies The lake of fire Pt2 Intro Page
Both of which you will find very informative. There are also papers dealing directly with the the topic of hell on the site as well.
We don't refuse to believe in hell because we are rebellious and heretics. We don't believe in it because the bible never teaches it. If the bible taught something else, then i would believe that. But it doesn't. So I don't. It's not a small subject and the answers aren't easy to take, but if you are willing....then you could learn something amazing. It's up to you.
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he-man
he-man
Not only was the Hebrew word proliferated but blown out of the same proportion as a bogeyman demon!The belief of the Hebrews down to the Babylonian exile seems but dimly to have recognised either Satan or demons, at least as a dogmatic tenet, nor to it any occasion for them, since retreated moral effigy is a properly human act (comp. Gen. iii), and always subjective and concrete, but regarded misfortune, according to theological axioms, as a punishment deserved on account of sin at the hands of a righteous God, who inflicted it especially by the agency of his angels (2 Sam. xxiv,16; comp. 2 Kings xix. and was accordingly looked upon as the proper affliction of every afflictive dispensation (Amos iii, 6). Cyclopaedia of biblical, theological and ecclesiastical literature. page 776
Fear God, not the bogeyman who is is an amorphous imaginary being used by false hell-fire preachers and adults to frighten people into compliant behaviour!
2Sa 24:16 And when the angel stretched out his hand upon Jerusalem to destroy it, the LORD repented him of the evil, and said to the angel that destroyed the people, It is enough: stay now thine hand. And the angel of the LORD was by the threshingplace of Araunah the Jebusite.
Amo 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?
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Sure I can, if by Hell you mean eternal torment.Kinda confused about that...
Can someone who doesn't believe in Hell give me a simple list of reasons why?
Here is a simple list of 53 biblical reasons the lost perish and are not tortured forever in hell:
1
Matt 7:13
Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.
This says destruction, not eternal torment.
2
Matthew 10:28
Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Body and Soul will be destroyed in hell. Not burned alive forever in hell.
3
Matthew 13:30
First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up,
The greek word that is used is katakausai, which comes from katakaio, and it means to consume by burning, burn down. The tares are gone after they burned. The meaning is the same as in the last 2 verses, that the wicked will be destroyed. As Jesus says in verse 40,
So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age.
Just as the tares are destroyed by burning, the wicked people will be destroyed by burning, at the end of the age.
4
Luke 13:3
I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.
Here, the greek word for perish is apoleisthe, which comes from the word apollumi, and means "to utterly destroy, kill, slay, demolish. Apoleisthe is the future tense form of apollumi which means will be utterly destroyed or will be killed.
What apoleisthe does not mean is "will be tortured alive forever."
Jesus says that the end for the unrighteous will be the same as for those in the days of Noah (Matthew 17:27), "the flood came and destroyed them all" (not tortured).
and it will be the same as for Sodom (verse 29) "destroyed them" (not tortured).
5
John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
So either a person receives eternal life, or they perish. They die. They are not burned alive forever, they just perish.
6
John 5:24, Jesus said
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
He has passed from death into life, eternal life. Jesus did not say 'Whoever believes has passed from eternal life being tortured in hell to eternal life with no torture'.
7
John 8:21
Then He said again to them, I go away, and you will seek Me, and will die in your sin; where I am going, you cannot come."
Jesus said they would die in their sin, not be burned alive forever.
8
Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Note: Death, not eternal torment.
9
1 Corinthians 3:17
If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are.
Destroy, not torture alive forever.
10
Galations 6:8
For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption (phthoran), but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
phthoran: From phtheiro; decay, i.e. Ruin (spontaneous or inflicted, literally or figuratively) -- corruption, destroy, perish.
The one who sows to his own flesh reaps destruction, not eternal living torment.
11
2 Thessalonians 1:9
These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
Destruction, not eternal living torment. The greek word is olethron: destruction.
From a primary ollumi (to destroy; a prolonged form); ruin, i.e. Death, punishment -- destruction.
12
Hebrews 10:26-27,
For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES
Here it says the fire consumes the adversaries. They are burned up, not eternally alive and burning, but consumed.
13
Hebrews 10:39
But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.
14
James 1:15
and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.
Death, not eternal torture.
15
James 4:12
There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the One who is able to save and to destroy;
Destroy, not eternally torture.
16
2 Peter 2:1
But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.
Destruction, not eternal torment.
17
2 Peter 3:7-9
But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
8But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. 9The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
Peter tells what will happen to ungodly men, they will be judged and then destroyed. All ungodly men will perish unless they repent.
18
1 John 5:12
He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.
How can those without life be living forever in a lake of fire?
19
Jude 5
Now I desire to remind you, though you know all things once for all, that the Lord, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe.
20
Jude 10
But these men revile the things which they do not understand; and the things which they know by instinct, like unreasoning animals, by these things they are destroyed.
21
Revelation 2:11
He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.
The living and the dead will be judged on the last day. Those in Christ will not experience the second death. Those not in Christ will experience a second death. This second death is their destruction.
22
Revelation 17:8
The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction.
23
Revelation 18:8
For this reason in one day her plagues will come, pestilence and mourning and famine, and she will be burned up with fire; for the Lord God who judges her is strong.
The greek word katakauthesetai comes from katakaio and means utterly burnt up, destroyed, not eternally burned alive. (The greek is future passive indicative tense, therefore it is the word katakauthesetai).
24
Revelation 20:14-15
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15And if anyones name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
John interprets this for us, the lake of fire is the second death. If anyones name is not in the book of life, he experiences the second death. This is exactly what it says, death. It is not eternal living torment.
25
Revelation 21:8
But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.
They will undergo the second death, which means they are dead.
The proof is written in large letters throughout the bible. After the first sin, what was the promised consequence? God said that it was death. God didn't tell them that they would be given eternal life being tormented in hell. If eternal torture in hell is the consequence, it is jarringly missing from any statement by God to Adam and Eve. God even barred Adam and Eve from the garden to prevent them eating from the tree of life and living forever. Paul explains this: Romans 6:23, The wages of sin is death. This is obvious, Paul said what the wages of sin is and it is not to be burned alive forever after you are dead.
26
Ezekiel 18:4 The soul who sins will die.
27
Psalm 1:4-6
Not so the wicked!
They are like chaff
that the wind blows away.
Therefore the wicked will not stand in the judgment,
nor sinners in the assembly of the righteous.
For the LORD watches over the way of the righteous,
but the way of the wicked leads to destruction.
28
Psalm 2:11-12
Serve the LORD with fear
and celebrate his rule with trembling.
Kiss his son, or he will be angry
and your way will lead to your destruction,
29
Psalm 5:6
you destroy those who tell lies.
30
Psalm 9:3
My enemies turn back;
they stumble and perish before you.
31
Psalm 9:5
You have rebuked the nations and destroyed the wicked;
you have blotted out their name for ever and ever.
32
Psalm 9:6
even the memory of them has perished.
33
Psalm 21:9
When you appear for battle,
you will burn them up as in a blazing furnace.
The LORD will swallow them up in his wrath,
and his fire will consume them.
34
Psalm 34:16
but the face of the LORD is against those who do evil,
to blot out their name from the earth.
35
Psalm 36:12
See how the evildoers lie fallen
thrown down, not able to rise!
36
Psalm 37:1-2
Do not fret because of those who are evil
or be envious of those who do wrong;
for like the grass they will soon wither,
like green plants they will soon die away.
37
Psalm 37:9
For those who are evil will be destroyed,
38
Psalm 37:20
But the wicked will perish:
Though the LORDs enemies are like the flowers of the field,
they will be consumed, they will go up in smoke.
39
Psalm 37:22
those he curses will be destroyed
40
Psalm 37:28
Wrongdoers will be completely destroyed
41
Psalm 37:34
when the wicked are destroyed, you will see it.
42
Psalm 37:38
But all sinners will be destroyed;
there will be no future for the wicked.
43
Malachi 4:1-3
For behold, the day is coming, burning like a furnace; and all the arrogant and every evildoer will be chaff; and the day that is coming will set them ablaze, says the LORD of hosts, so that it will leave them neither root nor branch. But for you who fear My name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its wings; and you will go forth and skip about like calves from the stall. You will tread down the wicked, for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day which I am preparing, says the LORD of hosts.
44
Isaiah 66:16
For the LORD will execute judgment by fire
And by His sword on all flesh,
And those slain by the LORD will be many.
45 and 46
Genesis 2:17 and 3:19
but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die...
And to dust you shall return. (Genesis 5:5 Adam lived 930 years, and then he died.)
47
Psalm 49:12-14
But man in his pomp will not endure;
He is like the beasts that perish.
This is the way of those who are foolish,
And of those after them who approve their words.
As sheep they are appointed for Sheol;
Death shall be their shepherd;
And the upright shall rule over them in the morning,
And their form shall be for Sheol to consume
So that they have no habitation.
48
Psalm 50:22
Now consider this, you who forget God,
Or I will tear you in pieces, and there will be none to deliver.
49
Psalm 54:5
He will recompense the evil to my foes;
Destroy them in Your faithfulness.
50
Psalm 56:13
For You have delivered my soul from death,
Indeed my feet from stumbling,
So that I may walk before God
In the light of the living.
51
2 Corinthians 15-16
For we are a fragrance of Christ to God among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing; to the one an aroma from death to death, to the other an aroma from life to life.
52
for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
2 Cor 3:6
53
2 Cor 7:10
For the sorrow that is according to the will of God produces a repentance without regret, leading to salvation, but the sorrow of the world produces death.
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The belief of the Hebrews down to the Babylonian exile seems but dimly to have recognised either Satan or demons, at least as a dogmatic tenet, nor to it any occasion for them, since retreated moral effigy is a properly human act (comp. Gen. iii), and always subjective and concrete, but regarded misfortune, according to theological axioms, as a punishment deserved on account of sin at the hands of a righteous God, who inflicted it especially by the agency of his angels (2 Sam. xxiv,16; comp. 2 Kings xix. and was accordingly looked upon as the proper affliction of every afflictive dispensation (Amos iii, 6). Cyclopaedia of biblical, theological and ecclesiastical literature. page 776
Fear God, not the bogeyman who is is an amorphous imaginary being used by false hell-fire preachers and adults to frighten people into compliant behaviour!
2Sa 24:16 And when the angel stretched out his hand upon Jerusalem to destroy it, the LORD repented him of the evil, and said to the angel that destroyed the people, It is enough: stay now thine hand. And the angel of the LORD was by the threshingplace of Araunah the Jebusite.
Amo 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?
I think he-man, that very few people remember how many times the Hebrews were under bondage. Most Christians know about the 400 years in Egypt, but few don't know about the 2nd bondage where over 100,000 were taken to Egypt in the 1st century BC. Babylon for 70 years (2 generations). They were also invaded and ruled by the Philistines (called at the time 'the sea peoples') who invaded and ruled not only Israel, but they also invaded and ruled Egypt for 70 years, which when they were over thrown, led to the Rise again of Egyptian military domination through out the region. There were Jewish enclaves in every major city of the day.
What has this to do with our point? You can see in in any new immigrant family that comes to a new homeland. All it takes is the very next generation...their own children to be influenced by the new culture they grow up into. They develop a mixed view on life based on the beliefs and traditions of their families, but also this gets diminished by the influence of the new. Then, every new generation changes a little more as the culture of the day changes their beliefs.
This is how beliefs and teachings change. From one generation to the next. There doesn't even need to be willful intent to change things. It just happens.
That's why it was so hard for the Israelites to accept the new ways of God when they set out to build a new nation. Egypt was all they knew. In fact, the old testament history shows that they never really did successfully get paganism out of their systems.
That's how the truth gets perverted. As a christian for almost 40 years, I have seen many fads and beliefs come and go.
When I started in the late 70's, the word of God and teaching was at the forefront. Then the 80's, people pushed the prophetic...prayer warriors, deliverance ministries, prosperity teachers. Let me tell you. Very little of it was inspired by God. It was generally people trying to take advantage of the church by buying their books, sending money....all fads.
History has shown them to be that shallow empty constructions that they are.
I am grateful that I received sound instruction and input. I fear for this current generation who are presented with a low fat, low carb christianity and rarely are taught to count the cost. To put off the old carnal man and to put on the new. To die to the flesh and to hear his voice and obey.
When they started to use smoke machines during church services, I
knew we were in trouble.
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Soulgazer
Christian Gnostic
I would like to correct one misconception. When "Israel" was "taken into captivity" archeological findings confirm that it was the political elite, and NOT the entire nation. Egypt in Exodus probably doesn't count, as it, at this current time, is believed that this is a fabricated story based on mercenary accounts to give the nation a separate identity from the rest of the Canaanites of which they were an indigenous part. However, it was the Temple Elite taken into Babylonia. As such, there were no "foreign" ideas introduced to the youth, except via normal osmosis of adjoining societies.I think he-man, that very few people remember how many times the Hebrews were under bondage. Most Christians know about the 400 years in Egypt, but few don't know about the 2nd bondage where over 100,000 were taken to Egypt in the 1st century BC. Babylon for 70 years (2 generations). They were also invaded and ruled by the Philistines (called at the time 'the sea peoples') who invaded and ruled not only Israel, but they also invaded and ruled Egypt for 70 years, which when they were over thrown, led to the Rise again of Egyptian military domination through out the region. There were Jewish enclaves in every major city of the day.
What has this to do with our point? You can see in in any new immigrant family that comes to a new homeland. All it takes is the very next generation...their own children to be influenced by the new culture they grow up into. They develop a mixed view on life based on the beliefs and traditions of their families, but also this gets diminished by the influence of the new. Then, every new generation changes a little more as the culture of the day changes their beliefs.
This is how beliefs and teachings change. From one generation to the next. There doesn't even need to be willful intent to change things. It just happens.
That's why it was so hard for the Israelites to accept the new ways of God when they set out to build a new nation. Egypt was all they knew. In fact, the old testament history shows that they never really did successfully get paganism out of their systems.
That's how the truth gets perverted. As a christian for almost 40 years, I have seen many fads and beliefs come and go.
When I started in the late 70's, the word of God and teaching was at the forefront. Then the 80's, people pushed the prophetic...prayer warriors, deliverance ministries, prosperity teachers. Let me tell you. Very little of it was inspired by God. It was generally people trying to take advantage of the church by buying their books, sending money....all fads.
History has shown them to be that shallow empty constructions that they are.
I am grateful that I received sound instruction and input. I fear for this current generation who are presented with a low fat, low carb christianity and rarely are taught to count the cost. To put off the old carnal man and to put on the new. To die to the flesh and to hear his voice and obey.
When they started to use smoke machines during church services, I
Such self identity stories are common even in fairly modern times, such as Columbus "discovering" America, fating the indigenous population to ignominy.
Consider also, that "foreign" concepts are not all a bad thing---It was the Sadducee who "kept the faith pure" by refusing to adopt the concept of an afterlife into Temple Judaism (There were conceptually as many forms of Judaism as there were American Indian religions)....it was the Pharisee that pushed for Hellenization after the Hasmonean Dynasty fell that urged the adoption of the Greek concepts of Heaven and Hell. No religion is anywhere near as old as the story it tells about itself. One would probably have to have a historical doctorate in Zoroastrianism to understand all the ins and outs of Judaism.
"Pagan" simply means "Hillbilly" or "country bumpkin". Uneducated folk often interpret religion into their own capability of understanding... The snake handlers of the Appalachian would be "Pagan" in the true definition. Here in the south there are many "pagan" preachers doing tent revivals with their own superstitious bent. "Skinhead" and other right wing Christian terrorist groups are also "Pagan". Technically, anyone who looked on the religious accounts as literally factual, without the mitigation of the knowledge behind them might be considered "Pagan". The Church used to fight Paganism by keeping religious texts only among trained priests. After the invention of the printing press, paganism flourished.
This is not to be confused with "Barbarian" which simply meant anyone outside the "barb" or borders of the Roman empire.
Smoke machines
This reminds me of the wonderful mechanical contraptions used in ancient temples to perform "miracles"--- Dancing or bleeding statues and other "miracles" would keep the congregations enthralled.
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I would like to correct one misconception. When "Israel" was "taken into captivity" archeological findings confirm that it was the political elite, and NOT the entire nation. Egypt in Exodus probably doesn't count, as it, at this current time, is believed that this is a fabricated story based on mercenary accounts to give the nation a separate identity from the rest of the Canaanites of which they were an indigenous part. However, it was the Temple Elite taken into Babylonia. As such, there were no "foreign" ideas introduced to the youth, except via normal osmosis of adjoining societies.
Such self identity stories are common even in fairly modern times, such as Columbus "discovering" America, fating the indigenous population to ignominy.
Consider also, that "foreign" concepts are not all a bad thing---It was the Sadducee who "kept the faith pure" by refusing to adopt the concept of an afterlife into Temple Judaism (There were conceptually as many forms of Judaism as there were American Indian religions)....it was the Pharisee that pushed for Hellenization after the Hasmonean Dynasty fell that urged the adoption of the Greek concepts of Heaven and Hell. No religion is anywhere near as old as the story it tells about itself. One would probably have to have a historical doctorate in Zoroastrianism to understand all the ins and outs of Judaism.
"Pagan" simply means "Hillbilly" or "country bumpkin". Uneducated folk often interpret religion into their own capability of understanding... The snake handlers of the Appalachian would be "Pagan" in the true definition. Here in the south there are many "pagan" preachers doing tent revivals with their own superstitious bent. "Skinhead" and other right wing Christian terrorist groups are also "Pagan". Technically, anyone who looked on the religious accounts as literally factual, without the mitigation of the knowledge behind them might be considered "Pagan". The Church used to fight Paganism by keeping religious texts only among trained priests. After the invention of the printing press, paganism flourished.
This is not to be confused with "Barbarian" which simply meant anyone outside the "barb" or borders of the Roman empire.
Smoke machines
I was aware that the Babylonian exile was the cultural and political elite. My point of the families is that there was enough time and generations in bondage for the culture and teachings to change, including the introduction and adoption of hell type beliefs by the descendants of the original captives, thus changing the doctrines taught to future generations with multiple captivities.
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Albion
Facilitator
Kinda confused about that...
Can someone who doesn't believe in Hell give me a simple list of reasons why?
1. A few fault the customary understanding of hell on Biblical grounds, feeling that (some of) the words used in scripture don't refer to an ETERNAL state of being for the unsaved. They feel that some punishment is going to be administered by God but not forever.
2. Some think that God, being loving and good by definition, couldn't possibly be this "cruel."
3. Some think that mankind is not deserving of serious punishment because we are either too stupid or fallible for God to hold accountable. Maybe he just retools us in some way.
Historic Christianity has answers to all of these objections, but these are the usual explanations given by those who do not believe in hell.
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Soulgazer
Christian Gnostic
Judaism, especially with the scripture that we are most familiar with (Pharisee) is very syncratic, with various cultural mythologies adopted and intermixed with "spun" historic happenings. The entire concept of an afterlife was adopted from the greek around 300-350BC. Before that time the focus of Judaism as an overall religion was on the preservation of political power via the collective nation. Even older stories such as the creation myth in Genesis is a polemitized version of the Enûma Eliš, an older Babylonian myth. Some other creation accounts used in ancient Judaism are Sumarian and Zorastrian in origin. The "Noah's Ark" is a direct adaptation of the ancient Sumarian myth of "Gilgamesh".
The Pharisee changed the focus from preservation of national and political power to the theme of improvement of the individual, the concept adopted from the Greek after contact with Alexander; Christianity continued and tweaked the process via the removal of draconian cultural law into something useful for the development of individual morality.
If one want's to blame "Hell" on a specific group, that would be the developing catholicism of the mid to late second century. There are many catholic specific writings and interpolations all throughout the New Testament. It is, after all, an anthology put together by catholics for the promotion of catholicism. I think equal time credit should go to the Greek Philosophers on which the concept is based though.
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Well, I can't be saved by Jesus until I know exactly what he's saving me from. I can hear other people's opinions and their reasoning...but can I ever really be sure?
And yes even if I do get saved, I will still think about Hell. Because believe it or not, I care about other people's souls. Crazy, right?
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I hear a lot of people say this. But how do you even know all of this anyway?
If theres no hell then why does it say something about getting tormented forever and ever somewhere in the bible?
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The verse you are talking about is;
[NAS] REV 20:10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever/aion and ever/aion.
But not all translations translate that Greek word aion as "forever" or "eternal". They consistently translate it as an eon which is an 'age' or a 'period of time'. Below is the same verse as translated by Robert Young who also authored the popular Young's Hebrew and Greed Concordance. YLT stands for Young's Literal Translation.
[YLT] REV 20:10 and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where {are} the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night - to the ages/aion of the ages/aion.
In his book Gods Methods with Man, G. Campbell Morgan (scholar, associate of D.L. Moody, and a highly respected expositor of Scrip-ture), said: Let me say to Bible students that we must be very careful how we use the word ―eternity. We have fallen into great error in our constant use of that word. There is no word in the whole Book of God corresponding with our ―eternal, which, as commonly used among us, means absolutely without end. The strongest Scripture word used with refer-ence to the existence of God, is "unto the ages of the ages", which does not literally mean eternally.
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Hillsage is correct. It is both one bad translation built upon another. As he said...both 'olam' in the hebrew and 'aion' or 'aionos' in the greek, never meant eternity or forever. The singular means 'age' or 'for a time' and the plural means ages....never eternal or forever. The Hebrews and Greeks never even had a word for forever. That was made up in the Greek approx 200 years after Christ.
The word 'torment' is the greek work 'basanos'. It means 'a touchstone'. A touchstone is how metallurgists used to test the purity of precious metals such as gold.
Effectively...what this means is that all of mankind will be judged in fire, all their flesh will be purged and then the will be restored to God. They will be tested asd salted with fire. All the wood, hay and stubble will be consumed.
We will be rubbed by God's touchstone to see how pure we are. Not on a stick dangling over a perpetual flame for ever and ever, but a symbolic flame that purges our carnal nature and 'only for a time'
And Albion, as a believer in Hell...the question wasn't for you to answer.
Mainstream christianity doesn't even come close to answering these issues as they made them up in the first place.
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I think I still have a copy of "the Epic of Gilgamesh" left in a cupboard somewhere left over from university days....Must look for it again one day.
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Soulgazer
Christian Gnostic
I don't have a copy...I may have to look for one. The development of various ancient beliefs has always intrigued me.I think I still have a copy of "the Epic of Gilgamesh" left in a cupboard somewhere left over from university days....Must look for it again one day.
Slightly off topic, but I promise not to diverge much, and hook it back to the topic--- The "Torah" version of God was rejected by most of Christianity until it was re-integrated by catholicism. However, here and there the old version of Christianity has left it's mark. The Torah version of God was thought of as a "daemon" posing as the Almighty, and exorcisms and folklore found even today include the usage of Iron as antithetical to evil powers because of Judges 1:19.
To tie it back in, this earlier version of the Christian God punished here on earth, but forgave all human sin because of the crucifixion of Jesus.
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Hahaha...well, you take a group of men....seperate them in remote places....where they give away all of their old lives and worldy possessions....give up all of their families...forced to live in countries that are extremely hot....with little water....and no fun...no women....where they flog and punish themselves because they feel guilty of 'evil thoughts', where they deny themselves of everything, including joy and the only book they are allowed to read is the bible and it won't take long for the "Crazy" to surface. Thus were were the scribes and authors of crazy church doctrines born.
:o
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