Why do some people think Hell isn't real?

[P1LGR1M]

Originally Posted by dollarsbill

"They shall be tormented day and night forever and ever"
​

You mean to die the second death with eternal vexation.
2Pe 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

2Th 1:9 who shall pay the penalty of everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his might,
G5099 τίνω Strengthened for a primary word τίω tiō to pay a price, that is, as a penalty: - be punished with.

οιτινες δικην τισουσιν penalty ολεθρον αιωνιον everlasting απο προσωπου του κυριου και απο της δοξης της ισχυος αυτου

Isa 11:4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]to rub to test the purity, consume [/FONT][/FONT]test by touchstone Tormented (εβασανισα&#957 see 2Pe 2:8 Vexed (εβασανιζε&#957

No, I am pretty sure he meant...

"They shall be tormented day and night forever and ever"

The seperation from God which sinful man is under is not understood in this life, but when they stand before Christ and are sentenced to everlasting seperation they will be tormented by the fact that they will know they were given opportunity to repent and escape this fate.

God bless.

 

[strangertoo]

No, I am pretty sure he meant...

"They shall be tormented day and night forever and ever"

one could hope not :-

Revelation 20:10 [YLT] ... and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night—to the ages of the ages.

The seperation from God which sinful man is under is not understood in this life, but when they stand before Christ and are sentenced to everlasting seperation they will be tormented by the fact that they will know they were given opportunity to repent and escape this fate.

God bless.

the spirit of a man is of God, one cannot separate God from God ...

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

the bible says nothing about separation from God, you just made it up my friend...and the mercy of God endures, as the scripture says over a hundred times and 'rejoices over' judgement ...

I don't see why you make up stuff that just isn't there and reject the stuff that is there ... what do you hope to do, change God's mind ?

 

[Hillsage]

The difference being...Thomas believed in this life, as all who are born again do.

Your opinion...back it with 'a' scripture. Here's mine.

1PE 3:18 For Christ also diedfor sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit; 19 in which he went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah...

Every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, but among those saying "Lord, Lord!"...will be those the Lord never knew.

Since consistency is a theological jewel, your statement should agree with the mandate of your last sentence also; "IN THIS LIFE". And they did not know him "in this life"...did they?

I must say I'm sorry P1GLR1M, I am not going to enter into 'your need' for multiple posts which are too long to be read, let alone respond to. I've tried to tell you that before. They are not appropriate for this forum IMO. Have you even noticed that no one else does it?

So, if you want us to dialogue, you are going to have to butcher your elephants.

 

[P1LGR1M]

Originally Posted by dollarsbill

Well yeah, but those in Hell won't be happy.
​

JAM 3:6 And the tongue is a fire. The tongue is an unrighteous world among our members, staining the whole body, setting on fire the cycle of nature, and set on fire by hell.

No they won't be happy in hell.

This is true. One of the things that they will regret is not giving attention to doctrine and heeding the warnings of scripture, because they did not see scripture as a valid means of knowledge to escape their judgment, even as Abraham says to the Rich man.

But then, are you happy when the fire of hell is ignited by the sin of your tongue in your life now? Then what is the difference? Simply timing.

Funny, but I can't recall him being the one to use his words to bite and devour.

So I ask...what is the difference?

The difference would be that one view is supported by scripture and the other...is not.

1TI 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

1 Timothy 4:13

King James Version (KJV)


13 Till I come, give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine.



What then does Paul exhort Timothy to read? Commentaries?

Or the word of God?

Your "due time" to give a testimony just happened to be in this age, for God chose such a time to call you. Their "due time" will be "in the ages to come"...praise be to Him.

Based on what?

So it is simply a matter of timing for His 'will to have all men be saved'. Unless you believe your will trumps out over His will. Thank God I trust in Him for us " to will and to do", and not in the orthodox lies of the pharisees of today.

Look at it again:


1 Timothy 2

King James Version (KJV)

4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.


For the purpose that men can be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth, those that are already saved are to...


1 Timothy 2

King James Version (KJV)


1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;

2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.

3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;



Paul makes this point in the first chapter:



1 Timothy 1:16

King James Version (KJV)


16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.



Christ it is that establishes the pattern of life as a testimony to that should come to a saving knowledge of Christ unto everlasting life.


Not sure how this can be accomplished after death when the wicked are cast into Hades to await the Great White Throne judgment.


Paul does not mince words when he says...


1 Timothy 4

King James Version (KJV)


4 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;



For this cause Paul exhorts Timothy to give attention to reading and doctrine, establishing another pattern.

Study of God's word. To assume Paul meant anything else would fall into a category of ludicrous.


16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.


Save himself from the error of those that depart from the faith, not that he will once again be saved.


1 Timothy 5

King James Version (KJV)



6 But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth.



She is dead because she evidences that she has not the Life of Christ.


1 Timothy 6

King James Version (KJV)

3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;


4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,

5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.



Those that teach otherwise to the doctrine which Timothy has been taught stand in a fearful place. Paul states that they have corrupt minds destitute of the truth.

Paul writes another epistle to Timothy:



2 Timothy 1

King James Version (KJV)



8 Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God;

9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:



Not are are called unti salvation and Life in Christ. Many are called, but according to the Lord, few chosen.

The Gospel is unto them who have received the Gospel the means of receiving Life. Life and immortality came to light through the Gospel, and those that obey not the Gospel are also said not to know God, and we can see that if they know not God, neither does God know them.


2 Timothy 3

King James Version (KJV)



5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,

7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.



...never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. Paul gives no footnote of "at this time."


2 Timothy 3:15-17

King James Version (KJV)


15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.



Seems that Paul was not of the mind that the "books" were unable to make man more complete.


2 Timothy 4

King James Version (KJV)


1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom



As we see many times in scripture Paul distinguishes between those that have life and those that are...dead.


2 Timothy 4

King James Version (KJV)


2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine.

3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;



It is for this reason that those that teach false doctrine will always, without fail, undermine the very word of God.

They will say "read this book" or that, and seek to "explain away" very simple teachings which even babes in Christ can understand, and in fact, more than likely played a part in their coming to fear the Lord with BIBLICAL fear.

For it is only those who know Him correctly, who believe that the fire of God consummates eventually rather than consumes eternally. My view aligns with a purposeful god and your view aligns with a heart that is contrary to forgiveness.

It is true their is a discrepancy, but I have not seen a statement made by the poster that is as revealing as this...

Thanks for inspiring my new #1 signature line.



God gave us a book the first time and it didn't work, so He sent his SON. Some still trust the book.

In other words, the Lord wasted His time in giving the scripture.

Two words only can I say to this:

In...credible.

God bless.

 

[Hillsage]

Where does scripture teach an "age of punishing?"

God bless.

MAT 25:46 And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'

 

[P1LGR1M]

one could hope not :-

Revelation 20:10 [YLT] ... and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night—to the ages of the ages.



the spirit of a man is of God, one cannot separate God from God ...

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

the bible says nothing about separation from God, you just made it up my friend...and the mercy of God endures, as the scripture says over a hundred times and 'rejoices over' judgement ...

I don't see why you make up stuff that just isn't there and reject the stuff that is there ... what do you hope to do, change God's mind ?

I just have a habit of rejecting...stuff.

God is not the Force of Star Wars, but He is God.

Man is a created being who like the Angels are spirit, though unlike Angels are also fesh, which a spirit does not have.


2 Corinthians 6:14

King James Version (KJV)


14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?


If a seperation of believers from unbelievers is set forth, why would we think that evil men rejoin God...who is not evil?

This kind of reasoning would also make Satan and His Angels...part of God.

Just not set forth in scripture.

God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

MAT 25:46 And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'

By this reasoning we can expect an Age of Salvation as well.

Incredible.

If one is everlasting, so too is the other.

God bless.

 

[strangertoo]

By this reasoning we can expect an Age of Salvation as well.

Incredible.

If one is everlasting, so too is the other.

God bless.

You are very good at confusing yourself with your own strawmen ... salvation is by translation to endlessness of the spirit which when complete obviously end the new earth and heavens in the third heavens as Paul described ...

 

[P1LGR1M]

Originally Posted by P1LGR1M

The difference being...Thomas believed in this life, as all who are born again do.
​

Your opinion...back it with 'a' scripture.

Is there a group out there that believes that Thomas' expression of faith happened after his death?

Incredible. Are they by any chance "sinning pill popping christians?"

Here's mine.

1PE 3:18 For Christ also diedfor sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit; 19 in which he went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah...

A few things to consider: these that did not obey are said to have been destroyed, yet, they were still in existence at the time of Christ's death.

Secondly, who are the spirits in prison? There are two views that I think have reasonable merit, the first that no-one before Christ's death went to Heaven, but all went to Sheol, the just being just through faith, the wicked condemned as all men who do not place their faith in Savior God.

Christ liberated the saints of the Old Testament through His death, and they, being made perfect, were taken into Heaven at this time.

The second voew is that this simply refers to Christ's ministry, the "spirits in prison" a reference to man in general.

I embrace wholeheartedly the former, and see the latter as having a scriptural application and basis but we cannot limit the statement to this, seeing that those that died in the flood are mentioned specificly.

What we cannot do is establish Universal Salvation because in order to make this statement fit the pattern we must also ignore much of what scripture teaches.

Every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, but among those saying "Lord, Lord!"...will be those the Lord never knew.

Since consistency is a theological jewel, your statement should agree with the mandate of your last sentence also; "IN THIS LIFE". And they did not know him "in this life"...did they?

All men will be held accountable for their sin. No man will stand before God and say, "I didn't know there was a God therefore I am innocent.

That is just basic.

We need only to read Hebrews 11 to see that among those that perished in the flood were those that were spared. The family of Noah being sanctified and spared even as we see an unbelieving spouse is sanctified by the believing spouse.

What is seldom considered are those that died before the flood, of which if my math is correct Lamech died 5 years before the flood and Methuselah actually died the year of the flood.

We would also have to assume, if we pursued this line of reasoning, that the Lord preached only to those that died in the flood.

I must say I'm sorry P1GLR1M, I am not going to enter into 'your need' for multiple posts which are too long to be read, let alone respond to.

I have no need other than to see the word of God defended.

That attention is not given to my posts by some is evident by remarks such as...

Your opinion...back it with 'a' scripture.

...when I have gone to the trouble to present much scripture to "back up my opinion," which is not just my opinion.

The ratio would be about at least 10 to 1 concerning the scripture covered to present a biblical basis for my view.

I've tried to tell you that before.

No need to reiterate something: if one does not want to read my responses that is their choice. It makes little difference to me, as I am simply interested in responding to the posts which I do.

They are not appropriate for this forum IMO.

When I am banned for my posts, then I will know that the staff is unhappy that someone respond in detail to doctrinal issues.

Until then, I will decide how I will respond here.

Long or short, that is up to each person to decide, but it is not for other members to make that decision.

Thank goodness we still have some freedom of speech left in this country. There are those that would like to regulate what others say, and I thank the day is coming when the word of God will be once again regulated by those that are in opposition to people thinking for themselves. The indoctrination that is taking place in our country has an agenda which while we have freedom of speech we should seek to do what we can to fight against that indoctrination. This is true of both secular matters and false teachings that have gained popularity in recent decades.

Have you even noticed that no one else does it?

Actually, no. I am not the only one "guilty" of responding in detail," so this argument is nothing more than an excuse to excuse oneself from discussion.

As I said, I do not regulate what others say, simply respond to that which they do say.

So, if you want us to dialogue, you are going to have to butcher your elephants.

To be honest, I do not "want you to dialogue."

Not as long as the doctrine that is set forth is what is being taught.

I would be quite happy to spend my time looking at other matters.

God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

You are very good at confusing yourself with your own strawmen ... salvation is by translation to endlessness of the spirit which when complete obviously end the new earth and heavens in the third heavens as Paul described ...

I think the public record is quite clear as to where the confusion lies.

God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

I would just encourage those that may feel they cannot contribute to this discussion to join in. It is always good to see new participants in a discussion that has gone on in several threads and has generated a number of successive threads.

This thread will soon reach it's hundredth page, and within this thread is some very interesting conversation. We see biblical presentations for not just two views, but for several views, lol, and it is interesting to see the responses which reveal more than just the doctrine discussed.

God bless.

 

[Hillsage]

By this reasoning we can expect an Age of Salvation as well.
Incredible.

Yes it is, but then I serve an incredible God.

If one is everlasting, so too is the other.

God bless.

Not so at all. Those having entered into life in this age, don't loose it in the next age.

JOH 17:3 And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.

They simply move from the life of this age into to the life of the next age. And the life they experience in that age will differ from this age. It is not a question of 'quantity' of life in an age, as much as it is a 'quality' of life in an age. If not then you don't have much life/quality to look forward to in the age to come.

Those humans who disobeyed in the days of Noah simply believed upon seeing/hearing Jesus preach to them in a subsequent age to the one they lived in. Same thing is true for those who do not believe by faith in this age. They will believe by seeing/hearing in the next age.

 

[P1LGR1M]

Originally Posted by P1LGR1M

By this reasoning we can expect an Age of Salvation as well.
Incredible.
​

Yes it is, but then I serve an incredible God.

I think the point is missed: if the duration of Life is contrasted to the duration of punishment with the same word, then it stands to reason, as well as verified by many scriptures that reitierate this teaching that the judgment imposed is everlasting.


Matthew 25:46

King James Version (KJV)


46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.



If we expect that the punishment of the faithless which is in fact, primarily a seperation from God, which is the greatest of all punishment inflicted on the unbelieving, to be only an age which will end...then we have to also see the life that is given in Christ to also be an age which also ends.

If one is everlasting, so too is the other.

God bless.

Not so at all. Those having entered into life in this age, don't loose it in the next age.

Neither do we see those separated from God lose their "reward" either.

JOH 17:3 And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.

And if they know not God?


What happens at the Return of Christ:


2 Thessalonians 1:8-9

King James Version (KJV)


8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:


What happens ultimately:


9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;



Scripture is consistent.

They simply move from the life of this age into to the life of the next age.

I agree, concerning the elect who receive the Life of Christ.

The life they have is everlasting. The punishment of the faithless is described exactly as that Life is.

And the life they experience in that age will differ from this age.

Agree with that as well: I am looking forward to it.

It is not a question of 'quantity' of life in an age, as much as it is a 'quality' of life in an age.

I never mentioned "quantity," as duration is in view.

If not then you don't have much life/quality to look forward to in the age to come.

Entirely different issue.

Those humans who disobeyed in the days of Noah simply believed upon seeing/hearing Jesus preach to them in a subsequent age to the one they lived in.

Again, we can see that there were those that did not fall into the category of unjust, but just, in Hebrews 11.

Hebrews 11

King James Version (KJV)



7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.


The book of Hebrews does not give any leeway for salvation for those condemned.

Faith is began in this life, not the next.


1 Corinthians 15:29

King James Version (KJV)


29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?



Do we take this to mean that one can get baptized to save others?

Same thing is true for those who do not believe by faith in this age. They will believe by seeing/hearing in the next age.

Just not taught by Old Testament Prophets, the Lord, or those used to write the New Testament.

God bless.

 

[Phantasman]

"Day and night" emphasizes that the torment is unending, not that a solar pattern will be in existence."

Just as the use of the Lord in describing the enduring fate of the wicked with terms such as "Where their worm dieth not." The Lord is not saying that those in the Lake of Fire will be continually eaten of worms, but uses a trash dump to picture utter ruin which is continual.

God bless.

Fire doesn't torment. Why didn't he say burned instead if one is in fire? Spiritual knowledge needs to be obtained to understand the punishments of Hades. Jesus used physical parables to explain spiritual things that could not be imagined by men. Hades is darker than dark, despair beyond imagination for our minds where God is absent, a place he has prepared where he refuses to go. Jesus has been there and described it. Fire would be better to the physical man than Hades is to the soul of man. We take Gods love for granted, and it is a place sinners will experience because sin (complete separation from God) will occupy it.

Have fun following the Catholic ideas.

 

[Hillsage]

...when I have gone to the trouble to present much scripture to "back up my opinion," which is not just my opinion.

I only asked for one scripture, because I've not found one, and figured you couldn't either. I backed my position after your challenge to find one. You answer back with how many you have...you're answer falls short IMO. Post ONE.

No need to reiterate something: if one does not want to read my responses that is their choice.

That's what I was politely trying to tell you. I don't want to read them when they're that long, and I feel bad for the time you spent on them if you expecting a response. I value your time, as well as mine.

To be honest, I do not "want you to dialogue."

Finally, something we are both on the same page about.

 

[strangertoo]

Man is a created being who like the Angels are spirit, though unlike Angels are also flesh, which a spirit does not have.

you did not notice spirit made flesh in the 'transfiguration' ...any man like Enoch for instance perfected in Love in life and translated to spirit can act as a messenger of God by manifesting again as a man as flesh, and the re-translating once the task is done... 'angels' is an unnecessary transliteration , it just means messenger , and there is a good reason one cannot tell messengers from men [unless one sees them appear and disappear ] ... consider where Jesus went after his resurrection, he did not die a second time... and yet returns whenever two or three saints hapen to meet in their busy lives doing what he asked [unlike almost all men on this planet, including most who merely say they are christian]

Mark 9:4 And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus.

Hebrews 13:2 Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.

Matthew 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

Do you not see that you are blinded by preconceptions... you are not learning the way set down by God so Satan will find ways to deceive you ...
why not aim for spirit baptism so God Himself can teach you, no more arguments, no more delusion by Satan ?

Just one step required for you in preparation so the terrible shock of teh Truth facing God does not kill you... the idea is that you turn to Love, so you have to stop sinning first, so you have to disbelieve Satan's lies that you cannot... that is his trap and it works on almost everyone -Rev 13:3-4 ... only the ONE way out this side of death, grace by CEASING sin ... grace really is NOT a licence to continue sinning, it only covers past sins when one stops, and if one goes back to sinning after that then the only way God can help is death [Rom 6:7] as for most folks.... forget not then that FEW find the way now and the many are destroyed[ Matt 7:13-14], but later countless many destroyed in this earth are saved [Rev 7:9-10]

If a seperation of believers from unbelievers is set forth, why would we think that evil men rejoin God...who is not evil?

if you can stop sinning, then so can they... be assured God will not take anyone until their Love is perfect... until they CHANGE... but that applies to you as well, no-one is favoured by just saying they believe in Love if it is NOT TRUE... those who believe in Love, in God and Jesus, DO Love, not sin... it should be obvious really... Jesus can take none still sinning , grace is no excuse for sin :-

Luke 13:27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

the gift of God brought at great price by Jesus is spirit baptism, but God cannot baptise anyone still openly sinning, facing God will kill anyone still openly disobeying God... as shown many times in scripture, to look at God one must be wanting to Love enough to stop sinning first , not wanting to sin, God looks on the heart... one canot fake it as the many do in churches of sinners worldwide for Satan's delight , the hypocrisy of christian sinners is infamous among Loving folks... but sadly sinners latch onto Satan for soothsayings and he has plenty, a whole arsenal of lies about salvation , a minefield to pick one's way through if one is foolish enough not to seek God's help by taking teh first step which no-one else can do for you, not even God ... stop desiring sin, SEE THROUGH IT... sin is abuse, it is not desirable for anyone... live life by choosing otherwise because otherwise is BETTER ... understand why, believe in Love, not sin, stop sinning because you SEE ...

 

[P1LGR1M]

Originally Posted by P1LGR1M

"Day and night" emphasizes that the torment is unending, not that a solar pattern will be in existence."

Just as the use of the Lord in describing the enduring fate of the wicked with terms such as "Where their worm dieth not." The Lord is not saying that those in the Lake of Fire will be continually eaten of worms, but uses a trash dump to picture utter ruin which is continual.

God bless.

Fire doesn't torment. Why didn't he say burned instead if one is in fire?

Hello Phantasman, and thanks for the response.

It is my view that fire is used to represent judgment. The Lake of Fire therefore represents the place of judgment, so I do not take a hyper literal view of a big burning lake.

What I do take it to mean is everlasting separation from God which will be a conscious existence, which is one of the primary things dsicussed in this thread.

Again, the use of a phrase such as "day and night" in my view represents that it will be a minute by minute, hour by hour, day by day...punishment. Added to that is "for ever and ever."

Spiritual knowledge needs to be obtained to understand the punishments of Hades.

But we are not necessarily speaking about Hades, but Hell...the Lake of Fire.

In Hades, the Rich man was tormented. He could see. His memory was intact. There was a sense of physical deprivation. There was remorse.

But what I would say is that we need to obtain spiritual knowledge in this life. The rich man understood that too late. He feared for his brothers and Abraham states that the brothers have the word of God available to them to escape an similar fate.

And spiritual knowledge of God is only available through the New Birth, else, a man remains natural, in the state he was born in, which is one already separated from God. And it is the word of God, again, that is the catalyst for the faith which can lead one to Christ and thereby salvation, that he moght be born again and then be able to understand the spiritual things of God.

If we get that out of order we will only have a humanistic understanding of the punishment that awaits those reject Jesus Christ.

Jesus used physical parables to explain spiritual things that could not be imagined by men. Hades is darker than dark, despair beyond imagination for our minds where God is absent, a place he has prepared where he refuses to go.

Some had enough understanding to become enraged by the teaching.

I also think that Hades is dark, but again, I do not view it as a darkness limited to what we understand darkness to be, such as when we turn out the lights. We know that the "darkness of blackness" entails more than the absence of light, because the Light that is missing is not just physical light.

But I agree with you on one major point...the absence of God is the key in understanding the punishment of those that reject Christ.

Jesus has been there and described it.

I believe that as well. Both before the Cross and when He laid His life down, the Son of God was well aware of Hades, and He is well aware of Hell.

But then I also believe that the Son of God is God manifest in the flesh, so this is a given.

Fire would be better to the physical man than Hades is to the soul of man.

But we do not set the conditions. We can only relay what scripture gives us, and that is what is debated in this thread. Some deny that there is a Hell. Some say that the wicked will cease existence when they go into the Lake of Fire. Some say that the wicked will be delivered from Hell.

I disagree with those positions and see that Hell is an unending punishment for those that have rejected the salvation of God.

That is the primary belief many have a problem with, so they try to dismiss this teaching and teach a differeing view.

But I agree with your statement, because the horror of separation from God far exceeds physical torment. We see in Revelation:


Revelation 14:11

King James Version (KJV)


11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.



Consider:


Revelation 8

King James Version (KJV)



3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.

4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.



The smoke, I believe, represents the torment, not that they are on fire.

We take Gods love for granted,

I would agree with that as well, though we learn not to do that as we grow in Christ.

and it is a place sinners will experience because sin (complete separation from God) will occupy it.

This I would not be in agreement with, just because I do not think that those in Hell will have the capacity to sin in the sense man does in the physical body, nor do I equate, or limit, sin to an absence of God. Even those who are new creations in Christ have the capacity to sin. It is inevitable due to the fact that we remain in unredeemed flesh. It is through progressive sanctification and getting to know the Lord better that we learn to recognize sin and therefore put it away from us, with the Lord's help.

And as we grow, we learn to love the Lord and hate sin, and therefore take His love less for granted.

Have fun following the Catholic ideas.

There are similarities in my theology and Catholicism. However, it would be foolish to think that all Catholics know or practice Catholic doctrine in it's truest understanding.

If you think that all Catholics are in error, I would just ask how many Catholics you have known, though I know for a certainty you have not known all of them, and therefore are in error to condemn Catholics as a whole.

But that is beside the point, because your error beigns by assuming that my beliefs are so similar to Catholic doctrine that you can therefore lump me into a category which apparently you hold in derision.

All I can say about that is that if you wish to judge me, my friend, it would be a good idea to get to know me first, lol.

Assumption is a killer.

God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

Originally Posted by P1LGR1M

...when I have gone to the trouble to present much scripture to "back up my opinion," which is not just my opinion.
​

I only asked for one scripture, because I've not found one, and figured you couldn't either. I backed my position after your challenge to find one. You answer back with how many you have...you're answer falls short IMO. Post ONE.

There are a number of reasons why "one" has not been found.

It has to be understood that sound doctrine is not going to be achieved in a "proof-text formula," and "sound-bite theology" is always going to fail on doctrines where implicit and explicit teaching has to be included. That men are "dead," for instance, has been mocked. Yet it is a truth which, if one does not understand, one will be likely to embrace doctrines such as soul sleep, annihilation, and universal salvation.

You say you "backed your position," yet you have not even addressed the teachings concerning consequeences for sin. It has all been a proof-text effort that includes verses that are left out of balance because a major portion of scriptural teaching is not included in the teaching. If I teach that "scripture teaches that Messiah had to die," yet fail to balance that teaching with "scripture also taught that Messiah would not remain dead," then I could proof-text a theology that Messiah died so we need to be in mourning because of this.

That is exactly what is done.

No need to reiterate something: if one does not want to read my responses that is their choice.

That's what I was politely trying to tell you. I don't want to read them when they're that long, and I feel bad for the time you spent on them if you expecting a response. I value your time, as well as mine.

They are not just for you. They help me in my studies because I am compelled to be in the word. It is my hope that there will be others that will read them and will be able to also respond to the doctrines addressed. Maybe not here, but perhaps in the field, or on other forums.

It is not just a matter of "I'm right, your wrong," Hillsage, it is exercising my senses, so to speak. The instruction I receive from the Lord when I address doctrines I feel are in error is incredible. I am led to read scripture on many different issues and in this it helps to have a broader view of the whole counsel. Doctrines are entwined with each other and when one doctrine is awry, others will be as well.

So don't worry about my time, it is a time of communion with the Lord for me, and if I were the last person on earth I would continue to do what I do now.

To be honest, I do not "want you to dialogue."

Finally, something we are both on the same page about.

So you don't want you to dialogue either?

I had no we were that much on the same page.

God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

For those that might be following this thread, I am going to break this post up for the express purpose that others might address the doctrine taught in this response.

I knopw there are those that reject the works-based doctrine that is taught in this post, so I challenge those that do...to step in and respond to some of the statements that are made in this thread.

For far to long the Body of Christ has remained silent, allowing false doctrine to spread like a wildfire. We are see the results of doing nothing, saying nothing, and caring not for the souls being led to damnation because the Church has not fulfilled her command to disciple. Many of the errors we see gaining great popularity can be addressed simply by providing God's word for those that have received an unbalanced and unsound gospel that distorts the simplicity of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Brothers and sisters, I think we stand on the precipice of one of history's greatest moments.

What will we do with it?

Originally Posted by P1LGR1M

Man is a created being who like the Angels are spirit, though unlike Angels are also flesh, which a spirit does not have.
​

you did not notice spirit made flesh in the 'transfiguration' ...any man like Enoch for instance perfected in Love in life and translated to spirit can act as a messenger of God by manifesting again as a man as flesh, and the re-translating once the task is done... 'angels' is an unnecessary transliteration , it just means messenger , and there is a good reason one cannot tell messengers from men [unless one sees them appear and disappear ] ...

Re-translating? Men are Angels?

It would be better to focus on what God Himself said: "This is my beloved Son...hear Him!"

Rather than, like Peter, getting excited about Moses and Elijah, who, like the Law and the Prophets, spoke of Christ's...death.

The Cross is the primary focus of scriptural teaching.

And there is no mention of Moses and Elijah being "re-translated," only Christ is said to transfigured.

consider where Jesus went after his resurrection, he did not die a second time... and yet returns whenever two or three saints hapen to meet in their busy lives doing what he asked [unlike almost all men on this planet, including most who merely say they are christian]

Consider that Christ does not physically appear every time two or three are gathered, but because He is God He is "with us alway, even unto the end of the age."

Those that teach that the Spirit of God is a force rather than God Himself have not understood that Christ promised the Comforter and said "I will come to you."

Hear, O world...the Lord God He is One.

After His resurrection, Christ ministered among the disciples, and then returned to where He came from...Heaven. That He did not die again is a given.

Mark 9:4 And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus.

Hebrews 13:2 Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.

Matthew 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

Do you not see that you are blinded by preconceptions...

No, I see simply a patchwork quilt of verses sewn together in a very sloppy manner to try to make what is taught sound reasonable.

That one is possessed of preconceptions will always be in evidence in their posting, bith in their theology as well as in their character.

Continued...

 

[P1LGR1M]

you are not learning the way set down by God so Satan will find ways to deceive you ...

But I have learned about THE WAY, and so far, I have yet to hear about the Gospel of Jesus Christ in these postings.

What is taught is that people must stop sinning in order to be "spirit baptized," which is itself scripturally inaccurate as no man not having the Spirit of God can be said to be saved.

Satan wants people to believe that they can contribute to the work of Christ on the Cross, because when he does that, they are distracted from the work of the Holy Spirit, because the focus becomes "what I do," rather than what Christ HAS done.

why not aim for spirit baptism so God Himself can teach you, no more arguments, no more delusion by Satan ?

Hmm, let me put that on my calendar.

I know it is missed how utterly ridiculous this teaching is.

That one can think that the work of God can be achieved by man is one of Satan's greatest works in those that have not come to the knowledge of the truth.

It is called the "I" religion: I am not so bad; I treat people good; I don't sin as bad as that other guy...

The problem is that we are not graded with a scale, but are either in Christ...or we are not.

Just one step required for you in preparation so the terrible shock of teh Truth facing God does not kill you...

There is but one act of obedience necessary for man to be saved: obey the Gospel of Jesus Christ.


Continued...