Why do Some People Become So Emotional when Discussing Genesis?

[Speedwell]

Project it on others? How bout you take a poll to see who prefers stories over the facts?

Poll the ancient Hebrews? Good luck with that. As to contemporary Christian groups, I am satisfied with their doctrinal statements and other writings, as well as my personal acquaintances among the memberships. Tell me this: How many Sacred Mysteries are there in your doctrine--things which you know by faith but for which no rational explanation is deemed possible? The Incarnation, for example, or the Resurrection?

 

[Kenny'sID]

Poll the ancient Hebrews? Good luck with that. As to contemporary Christian groups, I am satisfied with their doctrinal statements and other writings, as well as my personal acquaintances among the memberships. Tell me this: How many Sacred Mysteries are there in your doctrine--things which you know by faith but for which no rational explanation is deemed possible? The Incarnation, for example, or the Resurrection?

Sacred mysteries? Let's stay down to earth with this, at least as much as is possible for you. When you start going all over the place like that, I take it as grabbing at anything you think might back your point because you can't really back your point. But I'll gave you an opportunity to do that, a real one.

Do the poll. Hebrews? of course not, you're jumping all over the place here to change the subject now. Take a poll of the people on this site, simple. Here is your chance to prove people prefer a story over the facts of creation.

 

[expos4ever]

Yet HE knows the signs just before it and tells us to watch for them

HE knows but it's not for us to know

The HOLY SPIRIT will only speak to us what HE gives us to know

(John 16)

You are not dealing with the argument. Here it is:

1. Fact: Jesus does not know when He will return (clear from Scriptures!).
2. Therefore, Jesus does not know all things - this is an undeniable logical inference;
3. Therefore, Jesus might now that human beings evolved from other animals.

I suggest this argument is bullet-proof. But, please, show where I am mistaken.

 

[expos4ever]

To jump from a stated unknown in the Bible to assumed unknowns regarding scientific things is a pretty big jump, especially when Jesus was given all power in heaven and earth (Matthew 28:18). Why would He discuss such things, and with who... if it was not about His Father's business at the time?

Please read me more carefully. My argument is simply that since we know that Jesus' knowledge is limited (as I have shown - He does not know when He will return), it is certainly possible that He does not know something else - that evolution happened and the creation account is not to be taken literally.

 

[Speedwell]

Sacred mysteries? Let's stay down to earth with this, at least as much as is possible for you.

Down to Earth? I was sharing with you, in the course of conversation, something well-known about the beliefs of most of the Christians on the Earth. I don't know why you find such a commonplace so astonishing and unbelievable.

When you start going all over the place like that, I take it as grabbing at anything you think might back your point because you can't really back your point. But I'll gave you an opportunity to do that, a real one.

I take it your answer to my question is "none." My point was that you hold a rationalist view of Christian doctrine and it appears that I have made it successfully.

Do the poll. Hebrews? of course not, you're jumping all over the place here to change the subject now. Take a poll of the people on this site, simple. Here is your chance to prove people prefer a story over the facts of creation.

Not a representative sample, but I would certainly welcome their comments.

 

[expos4ever]

All that is THE FATHER's is mine...

This is why I say I will take from what is mine and give to you

And when HE comes THE SPIRIT of TRUTH whom I will send from THE FATHER HE will lead you to ALL TRUTH

HE will not speak of HIMSELF but what HE hears and HE shall glorify ME for HE shall take from ME and give to you and HE will show you things to come

All that is THE FATHER's is mine. This is why I say HE will take from what is mine and give to you

I will not leave you as orphans
I will come to you

I'm that day you will know that I AM in THE FATHER and THE FATHER is in ME

(John 16)

Nowhere in this text is there a clear claim that Jesus knows all things. And if there were, we would have a contradiction with this:

But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.

This is why there is all the fighting - you guys are not willing to accept obvious facts, whether Biblical or otherwise.

In this case, you (and at least one other) are denying the plain truth expressed in this text: there is something that Jesus does not know.

 

[Archivist]

Is the truth of JESUS hidden in GOD's WORD?

If so, what would the 6th day creation account be an allegory of

What would the 7th day be an allegory of

And what would an 8th day be an allegory of

Keeping in mind that GOD spoke of and pointed us to HIS SON in visible signs and representations which spoke of HIS SON

That is THE TRUTH we were supposed to have received out from HIS WORD

THE TESTIMONY of JESUS

None of this has anything to do with the topic under discussion.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Down to Earth? I was sharing with you, in the course of conversation, something well-known about the beliefs of most of the Christians on the Earth. I don't know why you find such a commonplace so astonishing and unbelievable.I take it your answer to my question is "none." My point was that you hold a rationalist view of Christian doctrine and it appears that I have made it successfully.Not a representative sample, but I would certainly welcome their comments.

Everything but, yet still no poll?

 

[Speedwell]

Everything but, yet still no poll?

Why is the question important enough to justify a poll? I have certainly gotten an answer from you sufficient to satisfy my curiosity on the subject.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Why is the question important enough to justify a poll? I have certainly gotten an answer from you sufficient to satisfy my curiosity on the subject.

Of course you have. We can conjure up just about anything we wish but when it comes to getting down to basic/solid proof...not worth the trouble.

 

[inquiring mind]

Please read me more carefully. My argument is simply that since we know that Jesus' knowledge is limited (as I have shown - He does not know when He will return), it is certainly possible that He does not know something else - that evolution happened and the creation account is not to be taken literally.

I understand your argument; it’s stated clearly... and again (please read me more carefully), you are taking one stated unknown “that Jesus does not know when He will return” and jumping to the possibility “that He does not know about something else” (creation & evolution). As I said before, why would you doubt His knowledge of these things... because there is no reference to Him discussing them? Again, why would He have discussed such things and with who... if it was not about His Father's business at the time? That doesn’t mean He didn’t know the answer to your suggestion (that evolution happened and the creation account is not to be taken literally)... Jesus was not here to teach science or evolution. I’m sorry but this is becoming a revolving door. May I ask why have you been careful to avoid my final question in post #47?

 

[Archivist]

Of course you have. We can conjure up just about anything we wish but when it comes to getting down to basic/solid proof...not worth the trouble.

How does a poll on CF offer "basic/solid proof" of anything other than the opinion if those who happen to be on CF?

 

[expos4ever]

Do you believe Jesus knew how to save your soul from eternal damnation?

Of course I do! But how is this relevant.

It is clear that there are some things Jesus does not know.

Therefore, one of the things He might not have known is that the creation account was not to be taken literally.

This is, frankly, obvious.

 

[expos4ever]

I understand your argument; it’s stated clearly... and again (please read me more carefully), you are taking one stated unknown “that Jesus does not know when He will return” and jumping to the possibility “that He does not know about something else” (creation & evolution).

Yes I am. And my logic is correct.

Since Jesus does not know all things, you cannot claim that He knows the creation account is literal simply by claiming He is omniscient.

It is clear that He is not.

Please confirm that you understand this.

As I said before, why would you doubt His knowledge of these things...

You appear to be making the mistake of requiring me to disprove a claim you have made. I guess we have to do through this step by step.

1. In post 15, I claimed it was possible that Jesus had limited knowledge.
2. In post 18, you denied this possibility.
3. This logically means you are making a claim: that Jesus must have known all things -if you believe He didn't know all things, then you would not have denied what I posted in post 15.
4. I have proved that there is at least one thing that Jesus does not know - when He will return.
5. Therefore your claim that Jesus must have known all things is shown to be incorrect.
6. Given that we have established that Jesus does not know all things, the question arises: Did He know the "truth" about whether there was a literal Adam and Eve, or whether evolution happened (to put it loosely).
7. Since Jesus does not know all things, the truth about the creation account could be something that Jesus does not know.

Do you follow me now? I never claimed that Jesus was mistaken in His belief about creation; I only claimed (and then proved) that this is possible.

Even if the New Testament quoted Jesus as saying "I believe the creation account is literal", that would not make the case that the creation account is, in fact, literal. Why not? Because, as has been shown, it is possible Jesus does not know the truth about the creation account (since His knowledge is limited, as has been shown).

 

[miknik5]

You are not dealing with the argument. Here it is:

1. Fact: Jesus does not know when He will return (clear from Scriptures!).
2. Therefore, Jesus does not know all things - this is an undeniable logical inference;
3. Therefore, Jesus might now that human beings evolved from other animals.

I suggest this argument is bullet-proof. But, please, show where I am mistaken.

1. The fact that it is only through CHRIST that we have access to the FATHER by ONE SPIRIT
2.The fact that HE and the FATHER are ONE
3. The fact that there is only ONE HOLY SPIRIT in heaven poured out upon all those who believe. Not two

 

[miknik5]

The accurate survival rate would certainly be higher if the Bible just said God created the universe...period. Not nearly as much to remember.

And how many more people prefer a accurate account? I think you are really reaching to think that anywhere near a majority would prefer an inaccurate story over the very interesting facts. I wan the fact, hands down, without a second thought.

The Scriptures clearly declare that Jesus's knowledge was limited - the Son does not know the time of the Second coming. So there can be no debate; if only the Father knows the time of Jesus's return, Jesus knowledge is incomplete. So perhaps He did not know that humans arose via evolution, and that therefore the creation account is a myth.

The FATHER and SON are ONE

 

[inquiring mind]

Yes I am. And my logic is correct.

Since Jesus does not know all things, you cannot claim that He knows the creation account is literal simply by claiming He is omniscient.

It is clear that He is not.

Please confirm that you understand this.


You appear to be making the mistake of requiring me to disprove a claim you have made. I guess we have to do through this step by step.

1. In post 15, I claimed it was possible that Jesus had limited knowledge.
2. In post 18, you denied this possibility.
3. This logically means you are making a claim: that Jesus must have known all things -if you believe He didn't know all things, then you would not have denied what I posted in post 15.
4. I have proved that there is at least one thing that Jesus does not know - when He will return.
5. Therefore your claim that Jesus must have known all things is shown to be incorrect.
6. Given that we have established that Jesus does not know all things, the question arises: Did He know the "truth" about whether there was a literal Adam and Eve, or whether evolution happened (to put it loosely).
7. Since Jesus does not know all things, the truth about the creation account could be something that Jesus does not know.

Do you follow me now? I never claimed that Jesus was mistaken in His belief about creation; I only claimed (and then proved) that this is possible.

Even if the New Testament quoted Jesus as saying "I believe the creation account is literal", that would not make the case that the creation account is, in fact, literal. Why not? Because, as has been shown, it is possible Jesus does not know the truth about the creation account (since His knowledge is limited, as has been shown).

You’re in the revolving door by yourself... I stepped out at the first half of the first sentence of post #73. I was happy to hear that and I think it’s best for you to work your logic out with Jesus... I’ll be praying for you.

 

[expos4ever]

1. The fact that it is only through CHRIST that we have access to the FATHER by ONE SPIRIT
2.The fact that HE and the FATHER are ONE
3. The fact that there is only ONE HOLY SPIRIT in heaven poured out upon all those who believe. Not two

1. Agree.
2. Agree, but certainly not in the sense that Jesus knows everything the Father knows - we know this is not true as I have proven easily. To disagree with what I am saying here is an out and out lie - it is simply implausible that you do not understand that, Biblically, Jesus' knowledge is not perfect. So, are you lying to the readers here on CF by implying that Jesus knows everything just as the Father does?
3. Agree.

 

[Kenny'sID]

The FATHER and SON are ONE

Not sure how that is in answer to your quote of my post.

 

[expos4ever]

You’re in the revolving door by yourself... I stepped out at the first half of the first sentence of post #73. I was happy to hear that and I think it’s best for you to work your logic out with Jesus... I’ll be praying for you.

You are clearly evading - how does the issue of Jesus knowing about my eternal soul even remotely relevant?

And please, spare the smarmy "I'll be praying for you". If you do not have the integrity to discuss fairly, why are you here?